Glorfindel reincarnated

[elbenprincess]

When Glorfindel was reincarnated it is said that he become almost the equal of the maia.

Then it is said that Galadriel was

the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-Earth

Is Glorfindel included in the "elves that remained" or is he a special case, cause his power increased.

I know that´s the old boring power debate, but today I´m somehow interested in that and would like to know what you think about that.

[Galadriel55]

Interesting question, elbenprincess!

I think that Glorfindel technically did not remain. He dies before anyone was given the choice to go or to stay. And then he came back. He's a pretty unique case.


Where does Tolkien say that Glorfindel was almost like a maia? I don't recall reading that part.

[elbenprincess]

There isn´t written the quote, but I guess it is from UT

Glorfindel’s spirit passed to the Halls of Mandos, where he waited with the spirits of the other Noldor who had died during their war against Morgoth. But because of Glorfindel’s noble actions in life, his reluctance at the Exile, and his furthering of the purposes of the Valar by saving Tuor and Idril, he was re-embodied after only a short time. He had redeemed himself, and was purged of any guilt. Not only did his sacrifice get him an early pardon, it earned him great powers, so that he was almost an equal to the maiar.

That is indeed remarable and true he came back to ME but then he remained until the end of the third age ( theoretical he could have left ME at every time, of course he wouldn´t) so I would think that he is included in the quote of Galadriel being the mightiest among the remaining elves. And he was "only" almost equal of the Maiar and Galadriel is doubtless very powerful herself and from what we see in LOTR more powerful than Glorfindel IMO.

And for the fairest part, would that make her more beautiful than Arwen or is she not included in that quote being half elven? Wasn´t arwen an elf until she decided to beong to the mortals?

[Galadriel55]

I would think that "the Elves that remained in Middle-Earth" refers to those who did not depart to Valinor after the destruction of Beleriand. This would include Galadriel but not Glorfindel.


As for the "fairest" part, go ask Gimli and Eomer who is more beautiful.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

As for the "fairest" part, go ask Gimli and Eomer who is more beautiful.

Indeed! Tolkien here seems to be speaking in the style of medieval romance in which exaggeration is expected when referring to female (and male) beauty, particularly when speaking of upper-class beauty, and in particular when speaking of a heroine or hero. This is part of courtesy.

Sir Thomas Malory in his Le Morte d’Arthur makes fun of this in Book IX, chapter 14 in which Sir Melliagaunce, who is in love with Queen Gueniver [sic], is prepared to do single combat with Sir Lamorak/Lamerok, who is in love with Queen Morgause of Orkeney, to prove in battle which lady is the more beautiful. Just at that moment Sir Launcelot wanders by with his kinsman Sir Bleoberis. Sir Launcelot is also in love with Queen Gueniver. When Sir Melliagaunce explains the cause of the proposed battle to Sir Launcelot, Sir Launcelot is furious with Sir Lamorak. Malory writes (spelling modernized from the Norton edition):

   ¶“A!” said Sir Launcelot, “Sir Lamorak, why sayest thou so? It is not thy part to dispraise thy princess that thou art under obeisance, and we all.”

   ¶And therewithal Sir Launcelot alit on foot. “And therefore make thee ready, for I will prove upon thee that Queen Gueniver is the fairest lady and most of bounty in the world.″ “Sir,” said Sir Lamorak, “I am loath to have ado with you in this quarrel, for every man thinkest his own lady fairest, and though I praise the lady that I love most ye should not be wroth—for though my lady Queen Gueniver be fairest in your eye, wit you well Queen Morgause of Orkeney is fairest in mine eye—and so every knight thinketh his own lady fairest. And wit you well, sir, ye are the man in the world except Sir Tristramis that I am most loathest to have ado withall; but, and ye will needs have ado with me, I shall endure you as long as I may.”

   ¶Then spake Sir Bleoberis and said, “My lord Sir Launcelot, I wist you never so misadvised as ye be at this time, for Sir Lamerok saith to you but reason and knightly. For I warn you, I have a lady, and methinketh that she is the fairest lady of the world:

   ¶“Were this a great reason that ye should be wroth with me for such language?—

   ¶“And well ye wot that Sir Lamorak is a noble knight as I know any living, and he hath owed you and all us ever good will; therefore, I pray you, be friends!” Then Sir Launcelot said: “Sir, I pray you, forgive me mine offence and evil will, and if I was misadvised I will make amends.” “Sir,” said Sir Lamerok, “the amends is soon made betwixt you and me.”

The fun is that although Lamorak is quite ready to fight against Melliagaunce to prove his lady’s beauty, Lamorak is suddenly less eager when he realizes that his opponent will instead be the incomparable Launcelot and starts making excuses. But Lamorak is still so brave as to be willing to fight if Launcelot really insists on it. Fortunately for Lamorak Launcelot is willing to listen to Bleoberis.

[Galin]

That quote appears to be someone's summation. I'm not quibbling with the wording but just to post Tolkien's actual phrasing...

This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel (...)

(...) We can thus understand why he seems so powerful a figure and almost 'angelic'. For he had returned to the primitive innocence of the First-born, and had then lived among the Elves who had never rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar for ages, to the end of the first millennium of the Third Age: before he returned to Middle-earth.

JRRT, Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Glorfindel I

That is Glorfindel I however, as Tolkien would revise that Glorfindel remained in Aman until the Third Age. And in Glorfindel II the wording is a bit different...

He then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reuinion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.

JRRT, Last Writings, Glorfindel II

Here Glorfindel returns in the Second Age rather, and 'more probably' as late as c. 1600 Second Age, the Year of Dread.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

When Glorfindel was reincarnated it is said that he become almost the equal of the maia.

Then it is said that Galadriel was

Is Glorfindel included in the "elves that remained" or is he a special case, cause his power increased.

I know that´s the old boring power debate, but today I´m somehow interested in that and would like to know what you think about that.

Glorfindel died before the end of the First Age. Elves like Galadriel chose not to return. Galadriel had no equal in Middle-earth among the Elves. The only one who was her equal was Feanor and he was said to be the ultimate Elf. Also from Morgoth's Ring it is said the reborn, "are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs." [p. 222] Even so Feanor was said to be the greatest of all the Children of Illuvatar and Galadriel of all the others was on par with him. There are few instances of Elves taking on the Ainur, but there are none who're their equals though Gil-galad beat Sauron.

[Belegorn]

I should mention there were spirits of fire who joined Melkor. Glorfindel did defeat one and his companion Ecthelion defeated their Chief, Gothmog at the King's fountain. Both were killed as well but Glorfindel could have lived after defeating his Balrog. It happened to drag him down into the chasm with him as it died. In fact it seemed Glorfindel overpowered this balrog. So I might say there were few Elves of this class and they were probably pretty close in power to the lesser Maiar. So Glorfindel did find himself the equal of a Maia and I think the Balrogs were such as the Maia who drives the sun is also a spirit of fire.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I should mention there were spirits of fire who joined Melkor. Glorfindel did defeat one and his companion Ecthelion defeated their Chief, Gothmog at the King's fountain. Both were killed as well but Glorfindel could have lived after defeating his Balrog.

Just as a side-note, you could argue that Ecthelion likewise "could" have lived. From the old tale of Gondolin's fall (Book of Lost Tales) he drove the spike on his helmet into Gothmog's chest and they fell into the fountain of Turgon (which appears to have been deep) and both died there. If he could have released his helmet and been hauled out, there's no indication he couldn't also have lived.

[elbenprincess]

Here Glorfindel returns in the Second Age rather, and 'more probably' as late as c. 1600 Second Age, the Year of Dread.
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I didn´t know that, so he arrives without the Istari in that version?

[Galin]

In my personal version Glorfindel arrives without the Istari, yes.

There are a couple of late notes however, one which says that Glorfindel met Gandalf at the Havens, and generally notes that the Wizards did not come at the same time. But another of these notes relates that the 'other two' came much earlier: '... at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age.' Christopher Tolkien footnotes Glorfindell II here, and 'about the year 1600' for the date.

But as Tolkien had already published (Appendix B) that the Istari appeared in Middle-earth in the Third Age, I accept Glorfindel's return date as around Second Age 1600, but not this date for the 'other two' wizards -- called the 'Blue Wizards' often enough although I'm still not sure Tolkien himself stuck to this term.

That said I rather like the idea of Glorfindel sailing with Gandalf, but Tolkien appears to have revised this in the second form of his late musings about Glorfindel.

[sneha]

I don't think it included Glorfindel. He technically did not remain as such but was sent back.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I think Glorfindel is indeed counted among the elves who remained. Technically, he was still in Middle-earth in the 3rd age, so his blessedness is a moot point. Despite his spiritual enhancement due to his resurrection, can one honestly say that his spiritual stature exceeds that of Galadriel, who is reputed to be the equal of Feanor, mightiest of all the eldar (excepting Luthien)? I really cannot see Glorfindel's spiritual might as greater than Galadriel 's when Tolkien himself states that she, Feanor, and Luthien were the greatest of the elves in the history of Arda. A more appropriate and realistic comparison would be between Glorfindel and Elrond--who has never lived in pre-darkened Valinor but has the lineage of Luthien.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

I think Glorfindel is indeed counted among the elves who remained. Technically, he was still in Middle-earth in the 3rd age, so his blessedness is a moot point. Despite his spiritual enhancement due to his resurrection, can one honestly say that his spiritual stature exceeds that of Galadriel, who is reputed to be the equal of Feanor, mightiest of all the eldar (excepting Luthien)? I really cannot see Glorfindel's spiritual might as greater than Galadriel 's when Tolkien himself states that she, Feanor, and Luthien were the greatest of the elves in the history of Arda. A more appropriate and realistic comparison would be between Glorfindel and Elrond--who has never lived in pre-darkened Valinor but has the lineage of Luthien.

Not to split hairs, but in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age Tolkien said of Galadriel:

A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth.

That's of those who remained in the 3rd Age. While she was also the mightiest of the female Eldar, which makes her veritably angelic in power, it's quite another matter to say she was at the very pinnacle of the all-time list of mighty Eldar. Feanor made the Silmarils. He also fought (and presumably beat) several balrogs before being killed by Gothmog. Fingolfin fought and wounded Morgoth, himself. Eärendil killed Ancalagon. At least four of Feanor's seven sons, and a few more elves would likely rank ahead of her in power.

That's not to diminish or demean her in any fashion, by the way- I'm a big fan of Galadriel's particularly feminine brand of latent power.

[cellurdur]

Though Tolkien very rarely makes mistakes, he is usually very accurate and precise when using terms like Eldar.

Glorfindel did not remain in Middle Earth and Elrond was not one of the Eldar. Nor was Arwen.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond was not one of the Eldar. Nor was Arwen.

Despite being born in Middle-earth, Elrond was an Elda, as his father was half-Noldo and his mother was descended from Luthien (who was the daughter of Thingol, who was counted among the Eldar despite spending little time in Aman).
At least, this is how I have always understood the situation.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Despite being born in Middle-earth, Elrond was an Elda, as his father was half-Noldo and his mother "half-Luthien" as it were (who was the daughter of Thingol, who was counted among the Eldar despite spending little time in Aman).
At least, this is how I have always understood the situation.

Tolkien more than once explicitly states that Arwen and Elrond were not part of the Eldar, but Half-elven. Even in LOTR you will notice that Elrond is never grouped together with elves. Even his sons, who are over 3/4 elvish are kept separate from elves.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Tolkien more than once explicitly states that Arwen and Elrond were not part of the Eldar, but Half-elven. Even in LOTR you will notice that Elrond is never grouped together with elves. Even his sons, who are over 3/4 elvish are kept separate from elves.

That Elrond and Arwen are always called “Half-elven” makes sense, considering the different destinies of Elves and Men. But where does Tolkien explicitly state that neither Elrond or Arwen were not in any sense Eldar? In their genealogical origins Elrond and Arwen were part Maia. So of course Tolkien would not generally state that Elrond was an Elda pure and simple, because he wasn’t. Tolkien does mention that Elrond preferred to trace his descent from Thingol rather than from Eärendil and Elwing.

You appear to me to be over-emphasizing that the name Half-elven (Pereldar) is different from Elven (Eldar), something no-one has denied. Why do you wish to emphasize this difference is if it matters for the purpose of this discussion of Glorfindel?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

That Elrond and Arwen are always called “Half-elven” makes sense, considering the different destinies of Elves and Men. But where does Tolkien explicitly state that neither Elrond or Arwen were not in any sense Eldar? In their genealogical origins Elrond and Arwen were part Maia. So of course Tolkien would not generally state that Elrond was an Elda pure and simple, because he wasn’t. Tolkien does mention that Elrond preferred to trace his descent from Thingol rather than from Eärendil and Elwing.

You appear to me to be over-emphasizing that the name Half-elven (Pereldar) is different from Elven (Eldar), something no-one has denied. Why do you wish to emphasize this difference is if it matters for the purpose of this discussion of Glorfindel?

Tolkien states emphatically that Arwen was not one of the Eldar.

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights"-Letter 345

Another example is Arwen tells Aragorn the children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar. They are not part of the Eldar.

"Do not wonder! For the children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar."-LOTR

It was just an example of how Tolkien is usually very precise with the words he uses. Glorfindel was not one of the elves, who remained in ME, but returned to help in the fight against Sauron. So it would be wrong to place him alongside the other elves that did stay.

[Willemijn]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Not to split hairs, but in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age Tolkien said of Galadriel:

A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth.

That's of those who remained in the 3rd Age. While she was also the mightiest of the female Eldar, which makes her veritably angelic in power, it's quite another matter to say she was at the very pinnacle of the all-time list of mighty Eldar. Feanor made the Silmarils. He also fought (and presumably beat) several balrogs before being killed by Gothmog. Fingolfin fought and wounded Morgoth, himself. Eärendil killed Ancalagon. At least four of Feanor's seven sons, and a few more elves would likely rank ahead of her in power.

That's not to diminish or demean her in any fashion, by the way- I'm a big fan of Galadriel's particularly feminine brand of latent power.

But exactly that Tolkien hinted at, when saying that Galadriel and Feanor were the greatest of the Eldar of Aman. I don´t think it was limited to the age of the trees but more a general statement why else mentionig Luthien as the greatest overall and stating that these three are the chief matter of histories and legends of the Eldar. I assume everyone knows the quote, otherwise I will search for it and post it properly.

At least four of Feanor's seven sons, and a few more elves would likely rank ahead of her in power.

Why, because she´s female? Maybe in power of arms, but much more important (to me at least) is the spirital power. Maybe she wouldn´t win in a swords fight but sure in a duell of song ( her brother was able to do it, and she was greater than him) and not to forget the incident at Dol Goldur, were she was able to laid bare it´s pits.

One has to wonder what exactly makes her the equal of Feanor and the greatest besides him, I don´t think it is only her wisedom, for Feanor was not wise at all, so it´s not hard to be wiser than him.

Regarding the topic theme, while Glorfindels power was greatly enhanced, I still see no evidence that he is spiritually more potent or "greater" than Galadriel.

Tolkien never stated it explicitly that Glorfindel was the greatest or mightiest in something, only that he was almost equal to a Maia, I think that applies to other elves like Feanor, Fingolfon or Finrod (if we look at their deeds) and Galadriel as well.

Tolkien however stated several times Galadriel being extraordinary among the Eldar.

Be it her hair, her marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others or her commanding stature already in Valinor (and that while still being the youngst Noldor princess, with her brothers and uncles, cousins and of course her father/grandfathers around. Sure all the royals had something to say, but the fact that in Galadriels case it is mentioned so explicitly makes me believe that she was indeed as respected as Feanor was).

In respect to Glorfindel and Galadriel, they were never compared, so one can only assume. The Witchking was afraid of Glorfindel so he was of Galadriel. (there is something along the lines that he would not dare to enter Lorien yet and face the white ring and Lorien would anyway stand unless Sauron would come in person.

Of Glorfindel it is said that

his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice

of Galadriel it is said that she is

unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit)

So while Glorfindel has much spiritual power, Galadriel has more, cause she is unconquerable in that matter.

I don´t get is, it always seems as if Galadriels talents must be somehow limited because she is female, always when it is discussed on why she is called greatest besides Feanor it is argued that she is only greatest among elven women or that her greatnes is wisedom.

IMHO Tolkien made it pretty clear who the 3 greatest of Erus children are (greatnes for me includes spiritual might, the ability to do magic, Finrod singing songs of power, Luthien putting Morgoth to sleep for example, besides other things) and that are Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel. In that order.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Willemijn

But exactly that Tolkien hinted at, when saying that Galadriel and Feanor were the greatest of the Eldar of Aman. I don´t think it was limited to the age of the trees but more a general statement why else mentionig Luthien as the greatest overall and stating that these three are the chief matter of histories and legends of the Eldar. I assume everyone knows the quote, otherwise I will search for it and post it properly.



Why, because she´s female? Maybe in power of arms, but much more important (to me at least) is the spirital power. Maybe she wouldn´t win in a swords fight but sure in a duell of song ( her brother was able to do it, and she was greater than him) and not to forget the incident at Dol Goldur, were she was able to laid bare it´s pits.

One has to wonder what exactly makes her the equal of Feanor and the greatest besides him, I don´t think it is only her wisedom, for Feanor was not wise at all, so it´s not hard to be wiser than him.

Regarding the topic theme, while Glorfindels power was greatly enhanced, I still see no evidence that he is spiritually more potent or "greater" than Galadriel.

Tolkien never stated it explicitly that Glorfindel was the greatest or mightiest in something, only that he was almost equal to a Maia, I think that applies to other elves like Feanor, Fingolfon or Finrod (if we look at their deeds) and Galadriel as well.

Tolkien however stated several times Galadriel being extraordinary among the Eldar.

Be it her hair, her marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others or her commanding stature already in Valinor (and that while still being the youngst Noldor princess, with her brothers and uncles, cousins and of course her father/grandfathers around. Sure all the royals had something to say, but the fact that in Galadriels case it is mentioned so explicitly makes me believe that she was indeed as respected as Feanor was).

In respect to Glorfindel and Galadriel, they were never compared, so one can only assume. The Witchking was afraid of Glorfindel so he was of Galadriel. (there is something along the lines that he would not dare to enter Lorien yet and face the white ring and Lorien would anyway stand unless Sauron would come in person.

Of Glorfindel it is said that of Galadriel it is said that she is

So while Glorfindel has much spiritual power, Galadriel has more, cause she is unconquerable in that matter.

I don´t get is, it always seems as if Galadriels talents must be somehow limited because she is female, always when it is discussed on why she is called greatest besides Feanor it is argued that she is only greatest among elven women or that her greatnes is wisedom.

IMHO Tolkien made it pretty clear who the 3 greatest of Erus children are (greatnes for me includes spiritual might, the ability to do magic, Finrod singing songs of power, Luthien putting Morgoth to sleep for example, besides other things) and that are Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel. In that order.

Galadriel's power certainly seems to be above all the other Noldor princes/ladies with the exception of Feanor, Earendil and maybe Finrod.

That being said Glorfindel is a very special case and the quotes about him put him in his own league. Before his death, Galadriel was probably a greater power, but not after he returned.

Glorfindel having the special responsibility of being sent back to help against Sauron speaks volumes for his power. Even Tolkien had to explain exactly why he had an air of power so unique for an elf.

Luthien with her divine heritage stands alone.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Willemijn

But exactly that Tolkien hinted at, when saying that Galadriel and Feanor were the greatest of the Eldar of Aman. I don´t think it was limited to the age of the trees but more a general statement why else mentionig Luthien as the greatest overall and stating that these three are the chief matter of histories and legends of the Eldar. I assume everyone knows the quote, otherwise I will search for it and post it properly.

The quote I copied specified the Third Age, not "of all time". You'll have to dig up the quote.

Why, because she´s female?

So many people reflexively go here. (Sigh...)

You might have missed where I've declared myself a Galadriel fan, btw.

Maybe in power of arms, but much more important (to me at least) is the spirital power. Maybe she wouldn´t win in a swords fight but sure in a duell of song ( her brother was able to do it, and she was greater than him) and not to forget the incident at Dol Goldur, were she was able to laid bare it´s pits.

Well, more important to you. However, arms comprise one aspect of power, wisdom another, crafting another, and song/magic yet another. Taken together, she doesn't reach the peak of the pyramid occupied by some others.

One has to wonder what exactly makes her the equal of Feanor and the greatest besides him, I don´t think it is only her wisedom, for Feanor was not wise at all, so it´s not hard to be wiser than him.

It depends on your definition of wisdom, I would say. In terms of knowledge and lore, he had the ability to craft the Silmarils. 'Nuff said. However, if you limit the definition of wisdom to mere common sense, then he's lacking.

Tolkien however stated several times Galadriel being extraordinary among the Eldar.

And so she is extraordinary. No doubt about it. I agree 100%.

You asserted, however, that "she [Galadriel], Feanor, and Luthien were the greatest of the elves in the history of Arda". That's a bit different than being extraordinary.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

You asserted, however, that "she [Galadriel], Feanor, and Luthien were the greatest of the elves in the history of Arda". That's a bit different than being extraordinary.

Tolkien in more than one place has said that Galadriel was the second greatest of the Noldor or the greatest of the Eldar apart from Feanor and Luthien.

That being said greatness and power are not interchangeable for Tolkien.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Tolkien in more than one place has said that Galadriel was the second greatest of the Noldor or the greatest of the Eldar apart from Feanor and Luthien.

That being said greatness and power are not interchangeable for Tolkien.

That makes more sense. And it reinforces the quote I posted about her being "mightest" of the Noldor in the 3rd Age.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

That makes more sense. And it reinforces the quote I posted about her being "mightest" of the Noldor in the 3rd Age.

When Tolkien talks in terms of power or the best he uses mightiest. For example Beleg was the mightiest woodsman to ever live, Maglor the second mightiest singer etc.

It's harder to define what he means by greatness, but it is a combination of social standing, achievement, power and respect.

Tolkien only describing her as the mightiest Noldor to remain the 3rd Age means there was at least one other Noldor more powerful. Feanor for certain, but I am not sure the other Noldor princes were. There is no definitive answer, for this though. Earendil for sure was more powerful, but he does not count as a Noldor.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Galadriel's power certainly seems to be above all the other Noldor princes/ladies with the exception of Feanor, Earendil and maybe Finrod.

I would think the possibility for an Elf to be reincarnated after the destruction of the physical body would hinge upon the personal request of the Elf,and his/her "worthiness".

One thing I've wondered is why Glorfindel was chosen for re-embodiment over, say, Finrod. Was Glorfindel's fight with the Balrog somehow more of a sacrifice than Finrod's contest with Sauron? Was the decision tied to the relative degree of inferiority of Glorfindel vs. the Balrog, ie Glorfindel was taking more of a risk?

[Willemijn]

It's harder to define what he means by greatness, but it is a combination of social standing, achievement, power and respect.

Not so sure that´s right, so Feanor and Galadriel back in Aman, being described as the greatest had better social standing and respect, than say Ingwe? For me greatness= spiritual power and the things you stated to some degree. I think that "Greatness" for the most part is something the elf is born with, some gift and not something that elf can achieve in life

That being said Glorfindel is a very special case and the quotes about him put him in his own league. Before his death, Galadriel was probably a greater power, but not after he returned.

So you think Glorfindel is the mightiest, spirituel most powerful in existence (after Feanor and Luthien dead)?!?! Even Earendil? I also don´t think that Earendil is spiritual more powerful than Galadriel, to my knowlege there is no quote to claim that.

I think IF Gorfindel would be standing out that much Tolkien would have mentioned that more direct and not only stating that his spiritial power has been greatly enhanced and at the same time stating that Galadriel was not to beat in spiritual power.
I think many elves that were rebodied would have that special air of power and almost angelic glow, only Glordindel happend to return.

And by the way Inziladun, Finrod was re-embodied. He walks with his father in Eldamar.

Well, more important to you. However, arms comprise one aspect of power, wisdom another, crafting another, and song/magic yet another. Taken together, she doesn't reach the peak of the pyramid occupied by some others.

OK, maybe she wasn´t that good a warrior but who was better in wisedom or song/magic (besides Luthien)? I think in wisedom, songs/magic, she reaces the peak of the pyramid, maybe even in crafting (besides Feanor) if we take the starglass and the mirror into consideration.

Tolkien only describing her as the mightiest Noldor to remain the 3rd Age means there was at least one other Noldor more powerful.

I think in this case mightiest also means poticital power, she is only mightiest after Gil Galads dead, cause he was the king, and she wasn´t more influential than he was, but after he died, Galadriel had that sort of might Gil Galad had, only with less elves. But I don´t think that Gil Galad was spiritual more powerful than her.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Willemijn

Not so sure that´s right, so Feanor and Galadriel back in Aman, being described as the greatest had better social standing and respect, than say Ingwe? For me greatness= spiritual power and the things you stated to some degree.

The quote was not based on what they had accomplished at the time, but on their entire lives. Ingwe for all his greatness, respect and power still did not actually achieve as much, because he stayed in Valinor.

So you think Glorfindel is the mightiest, spirituel most powerful in existence (after Feanor and Luthien dead)?!?! Even Earendil? I also don´t think that Earendil is spiritual more powerful than Galadriel, to my knowlege there is no quote to claim that.

Yes Glorfindel was the mightiest elf in ME when he returned. There are many quotes about Earendil's power, which dwarfs everyone else.

Here is a simple comparison. Ancalagon the Black was more powerful than Melian, but in the end Earendil killed it. Earedil was called the mightiest of the Half-Elven, which means he was more powerful than Elrond an equal of Galadriel at the very least.

I think IF that would be the case Tolkien would have mentioned that. I think many elves that were rebodied would have that special air of power and almost angelic glow, only Glordindel happend to return.

And by the way Inziladun, Finrod was re-embodied. He walks with his father in Eldamar.

Yes, but Glorfindel was an especially pure elf and he stands alone in having saved the life of Earendil. Unlike many and possibly all the other Noldor princes he left Valinor only due to kinship and loyalty to Turgon. His situation was unique, because in saving Earendil he allowed the Valar's plans to come to fruition.
OK, maybe she wasn´t that good a warrior but who was better in wisedom or song/magic (besides Luthien)? I think in wisedom, songs/magic, she reaces the peak of the pyramid, maybe even in crafting (besides Feanor) if we take the starglass and the mirror into consideration.[/QUOTE]
No she doesn't. Her displays of magic are not above those of Elwing, Feanor, Elrond or arguably her brother Luthien.

The statements you have made are completely made up.

In Lore Elrond was the mightiest.
In foresight it was Cirdan.
At music it was Daeron.
At crafting it was Feanor.

She is not even a close second in either of these categories.

Ironically Galadriel was probably a better warrior than she was a craftsman, singer or healer.

I think in this case mightiest also means poticital power, she is only mightiest after Gil Galads dead, cause he was the king, and she wasn´t more influential than he was, but after he died, Galadriel had that sort of might Gil Galad had, only with less elves. But I don´t think that Gil Galad was spiritual more powerful than her.

No it's not, because the statement was before Gil-galad died. Galadriel never had the position that Gil-galad as King. Even after Gil-galad's death the most influential person amongst the elves would be Elrond.

[Nerwen]

I believe the Galadriel/Feanor quotation referred to several times, but never posted, is one of these two:

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.

These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.

(Both from UT, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn.)

And now, a general comment: it’s best not to get too combative over Tolkien’s use of superlatives. Yes, at some points he'll describe a given character as “the wisest”, or “the fairest” or “the greatest”– but at other times he describes other characters the same way. No doubt– writing as he did over a period of decades– he sometimes forgot what he’d said previously– or else he just didn't mean these statements in the spirit of utter literalism in which people often appear to take them.

I know some see ways out of these apparent contradictions, but those seem to me to rely on hair-splitting and not-very-well-founded assumptions. For example, where is the evidence that Tolkien always meant completely different things by “might” and “greatness”? I just feel there’s quite a bit of circular reasoning going on here.

[Nerwen]

Also– the problem with all these power debates and “vs” threads is that the questions they ask are outside the scope of the type of fiction Tolkien wrote. I mean, you’d need him to have written up little character sheets for everyone, with their ability scores and hit points and everything. Okay, well, he didn’t.

And if I sound condescending, well, sorry, but I do think this stuff is pretty silly and it strikes me that some people are taking it all just a bit too seriously.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

And now, a general comment: it’s best not to get too combative over Tolkien’s use of superlatives. Yes, at some points he'll describe a given character as “the wisest”, or “the fairest” or “the greatest”– but at other times he describes other characters the same way. No doubt– writing as he did over a period of decades– he sometimes forgot what he’d said previously– or else he just didn't mean these statements in the spirit of utter literalism in which people often appear to take them.

I agree Nerwen. Another possibility [stress possibility] is that Tolkien meant different traditions to clash in this respect, although one can hardly really know, compared to the idea of JRRT just forgetting what he had written elsewhere; or enjoying superlatives.

In the 1930s Tolkien wrote: 'Of these Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and hand, more learned in lore than his brethren; in his heart his spirit burned as flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finrod was the fairest, and the most wise of heart.' (Quenta Silmarillion)

Then in the early 1950s Tolkien wrote (Annals of Aman): 'For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtelty alike: of all the Children of Eru, and a bright flame was in him.'

But yet in the 1950s Tolkien keeps the first passage, even changing Finrod to Finarfin and extending the last sentence (so we know he simply didn't overlook this). If Feanor is the mightiest 'in valour', how then is Fingolfin the most valiant? or if 'in strength' why then is Fingolfin the strongest? Or if 'in beauty' why then is Finarfin the fairest?

Is this a matter of authorship and opinion? The Annals of Aman were said to be written by Rumil in the Elder Days, and held in memory by the Exiles, and parts remembered were set down in Numenor before the Shadow fell upon it. Could it be that one author esteemed Feanor so highly, while another rather noted the greatness of Fingolfin and Finarfin in certain areas?

Hmm... ahem [cough] or something else

In any event, here's what Tolkien added (and thus published himself) to the second edition of 1965 (in Appendix A): 'Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore, but also the proudest and most self-willed.'

[Willemijn]

No it's not, because the statement was before Gil-galad died. Galadriel never had the position that Gil-galad as King. Even after Gil-galad's death the most influential person amongst the elves would be Elrond.

The quote says that she was

"the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-Earth" (after the death of Gil-Galad)

So before the death of Gil Galad she wasn´t the mightiest in political power, that was of course the king (the fairest part is strange, cause I don´t think Gil Galad was fairer than her, but who knows).

No she doesn't. Her displays of magic are not above those of Elwing, Feanor, Elrond or arguably her brother Luthien.

Well, the ability to have a magic mirror where she is able to see past, present and future, the fact that she destroyed Dol Goldur

They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

, that she was able to make the star glass, to keep Lorien safe from danger with her power and to make that land the most beautiful part in ME, without stain, her sending the fog to Eorls troup and so on is for me above that of Elwing turning into a bird (which she only was able to due to Ulmos help I´m sure! I know she learned the language of birds and seeminly transformed herself later on alone, but for me the enchantment from Ulmo still lies upon her) or Elrond making a flood.

With Luthien and Feanor it´s clear that they are magically superiour to her but with Finrod I disagree, sure disguising himself and his companions or singing a song of power and almost winning against Sauron is impressive, but evidence is that Galadriel is greater than him so that puts her above him.

Earedil was called the mightiest of the Half-Elven, which means he was more powerful than Elrond an equal of Galadriel at the very least.

Only because Earendil was mightier than Eldond doesn´t put him above Galadriel, only because you think that Galadriel is only equal or even inferiour to Elrond.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

I agree Nerwen. Another possibility [stress possibility] is that Tolkien meant different traditions to clash in this respect, although one can hardly really know, compared to the idea of JRRT just forgetting what he had written elsewhere; or enjoying superlatives.

In the 1930s Tolkien wrote: 'Of these Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and hand, more learned in lore than his brethren; in his heart his spirit burned as flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finrod was the fairest, and the most wise of heart.' (Quenta Silmarillion)

Then in the early 1950s Tolkien wrote (Annals of Aman): 'For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtelty alike: of all the Children of Eru, and a bright flame was in him.'

But yet in the 1950s Tolkien keeps the first passage, even changing Finrod to Finarfin and extending the last sentence (so we know he simply didn't overlook this). If Feanor is the mightiest 'in valour', how then is Fingolfin the most valiant? or if 'in strength' why then is Fingolfin the strongest? Or if 'in beauty' why then is Finarfin the fairest?

Is this a matter of authorship and opinion? The Annals of Aman were said to be written by Rumil in the Elder Days, and held in memory by the Exiles, and parts remembered were set down in Numenor before the Shadow fell upon it. Could it be that one author esteemed Feanor so highly, while another rather noted the greatness of Fingolfin and Finarfin in certain areas?

Hmm... ahem [cough] or something else

In any event, here's what Tolkien added (and thus published himself) to the second edition of 1965 (in Appendix A): 'Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore, but also the proudest and most self-willed.'

It is Tolkien's style to use a lot of superlatives and Christopher Tolkien himself comments on this. However, like with history we have to work with the information that we have.

When there is conflicting notes about, who is say the mightiest or oldest then at best we can make a iudgement call. For instance both Fangorn and Tom are called the oldest, but we know that the Ents were in some part made by Yavanna.

The Hobbit is definite one work where we have to take into account that the 'author' Bilbo was very biased and probably not aware of what was really going on. We even have evidence that he has already lied in the book deliberately.

Even the LOTR is from the hobbit's POV. Advanced medical treatment would be seen as magic by the Hobbits.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It is Tolkien's style to use a lot of superlatives and Christopher Tolkien himself comments on this. However, like with history we have to work with the information that we have. (...) The Hobbit is definite one work where we have to take into account that the 'author' Bilbo was very biased and probably not aware of what was really going on. We even have evidence that he has already lied in the book deliberately.

Even the LOTR is from the hobbit's POV. Advanced medical treatment would be seen as magic by the Hobbits.

Well I would agree that 'author's point of view' can become an all too easy explanation for seeming contradictions. I stressed 'possibility' above and am more inclined to agree with Nerwen's post and Tolkien's noted love of superlatives, although I do think -- at the point when the Annals were still meant to be different texts from Quenta Silmarillion -- some 'comparisons of interest' were perhaps intended.

That generally said, I would also agree that that has no real force when it comes to specific examples, unless Tolkien comments directly or makes something 'agreeably obvious' I guess...

... for instance did Maglor drown himself with his Silmaril (poetry, and one of Tolkien's letters) or walk along the shores (prose Silmarillion) after 'drowning' his Silmaril? Despite my opinion that this detail nicely lends itself to the confusion of history, so to speak, which would be nicely represented in the two very different traditions, the matter could simply be external.

Again if forced to guess: more probably external.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well I would agree that 'author's point of view' can become an all too easy explanation for seeming contradictions. I stressed 'possibility' above and am more inclined to agree with Nerwen's post and Tolkien's noted love of superlatives, although I do think -- at the point when the Annals were still meant to be different texts from Quenta Silmarillion -- some 'comparisons of interest' were perhaps intended.

That generally said, I would also agree that that has no real force when it comes to specific examples, unless Tolkien comments directly or makes something 'agreeably obvious' I guess...

... for instance did Maglor drown himself with his Silmaril (poetry, and one of Tolkien's letters) or walk along the shores (prose Silmarillion) after 'drowning' his Silmaril? Despite my opinion that this detail nicely lends itself to the confusion of history, so to speak, which would be nicely represented in the two very different traditions, the matter could simply be external.

Again if forced to guess: more probably external.

When Tolkien started off creating his mythology as we know he intended it to be new mythology for England, since we were sadly lacking in that area. He seemed far more content to go along with the confusion of myth and history.

However, late on his life mostly post LOTR I think there is a quite a change. Instead of being content to allow different interpretations and different stories to stand he seems determined to find a 'true' account of what happened.

An example of this is the question of whether 'Tuor' died or who exactly sent Gandalf back. These are things he either clears up completely or leaves us with very strong implications of what happened.

Since this is about Glorfindel, this is another such case. Tolkien could have left things ambiguous as to whether the two were the same. However, he clarifies this for the readers and there can be no doubt of the truth.

Even in the mythology about the Two Tree's he appears unsatisfied with leaving the account as Mannish myths. He tried very hard to make a translate the solarism myths into a 'true' account. For instance the Morgoth messing with the orbit of the Earth or the intensity of the Sun's heat.

I am inclined to think that he would have liked to clear up as many conflicting tales as he could, except for a very few.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

When Tolkien started off creating his mythology as we know he intended it to be new mythology for England, since we were sadly lacking in that area. He seemed far more content to go along with the confusion of myth and history.

However, late on his life mostly post LOTR I think there is a quite a change. Instead of being content to allow different interpretations and different stories to stand he seems determined to find a 'true' account of what happened.

Hmm. Yes and no in general. Post-lord of the Rings we have examples of variant internal traditions too, and I believe that the notably variant The Drowning of Anadune is a later 'Tolkien-ratified' text, for example.

An example of this is the question of whether 'Tuor' died or who exactly sent Gandalf back. These are things he either clears up completely or leaves us with very strong implications of what happened.

No doubt Tolkien was concerned with consistency, and in my opinion that is the major ingredient -- however to be 'peppered' in measure with a purposed amount of inconsistency or ambiguity, for flavour.

Since this is about Glorfindel, this is another such case. Tolkien could have left things ambiguous as to whether the two were the same. However, he clarifies this for the readers and there can be no doubt of the truth.

Another post-Lord of the Rings internal purposed inconsistency is the history of the Elessar stone. Surely we can find [or arguably find] more examples of Tolkien trying to make things consistent, but that doesn't rule out a measure of purposed ambiguity or purposed [even seeming] inconsistency in his later years.

Glorfindel is a character living in Imladris during Bilbo's lifetime [and Bilbo's stay there]. Not exactly the same scenario as with Maglor however [not that you said it was], as to my mind his ultimate fate seems far more shrouded in mythic-historical mist...

... a good case for the poetry to describe that Maglor cast himself and the Silmaril into the Sea, while another prose text says he cast not himself but the Silmaril into the Sea. Is this the case? I don't know, but I'm not sure that Tolkien would have ruled it out in a post-lord of the Rings phase even if he was naturally, and generally speaking, concerned with consistency.

Even in the mythology about the Two Tree's he appears unsatisfied with leaving the account as Mannish myths. He tried very hard to make a translate the solarism myths into a 'true' account. For instance the Morgoth messing with the orbit of the Earth or the intensity of the Sun's heat.

Tolkien does try to re-write the existing myths, yes, but for whatever reason he never gets very far however, and we can find enough late[er] examples of JRRT characterizing the Silmarillion as a mostly Mannish account.

In my opinion this was the solution JRRT landed on rather than re-write the older, already existing legends -- at least drastically re-write them.

I am inclined to think that he would have liked to clear up as many conflicting tales as he could, except for a very few.

Maybe depends upon what a 'few' is

I myself have never been a proponent of taking Tolkien's extant work as 'all internal' and never mind the inconsistencies because it's like some Primary World example...

... however, again, I would say that The Drowing of Anadune is a great example of purposed inconsistency due to author variation, and I believe Tolkien was happy with this variation in a post-Lord of the Rings phase of his work.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

For instance both Fangorn and Tom are called the oldest, but we know that the Ents were in some part made by Yavanna

But all the Valar and Maiar predate the entire universe. Tom Bombadil may be equally old. All are much older than the Ents. When Gandalf refers to Treebeard to Théoden as “the oldest of all living things” he seems to forget that he himself is older, as is Saruman and Sauron. Or perhaps Gandalf means only that Treebeard is the oldest of the kelvar who still live in Middle-earth.

You picked a bad example.

When Tolkien started off creating his mythology as we know he intended it to be new mythology for England, since we were sadly lacking in that area.

I don’t know that.

Tolkien’s legendarium was too complex in its origins to be so simply described. Tolkien refers in Letter 131 to his early Silmarillion in which the protagonist was the father of Hengest and Horsa, but admits this stage of his tales has long past away. When he refers to the lack of English mythology he is referring to modern times, surely not to Old English days.

That you think or feel a certain way proves nothing when Tolkien writes otherwise.

Tolkien did try to visualize his stories in one way, for the most part, but he kept changing his mind. One thing he seems to have stuck to in his Post-Lord of the Rings writing was the idea that the Silmarillion material was Mannish legend, which allowed him to retain the Silmarillion material as a flat-world story tradition within a round-world cosmos.

Tolkien sets forth Glorfindel as a powerful Elf, but goes no further. That Tolkien originally intended Glorfindel of Rivendell to identical to Glorfindel of Gondolin, and then forgot that that had been his intention, and later decided that they were the same indicates one case where Tolkien changed his mind, and then changed it again.

Tolkien also decided that Sador would be re-imaged as a Drúadan, but did not have time to carry this out. He also has two differing versions of who the Blue Wizards were.

Your belief that Tolkien suddenly decided following publication of The Lord of the Rings to stabilize on one version of the story only is just your belief, but an unsupported one. Tolkien always thought of his current version of his story as the final version, but he kept changing it.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm. Yes and no in general. Post-lord of the Rings we have examples of variant internal traditions too, and I believe that the notably variant The Drowning of Anadune is a later 'Tolkien-ratified' text, for example.



No doubt Tolkien was concerned with consistency, and in my opinion that is the major ingredient -- however to be 'peppered' in measure with a purposed amount of inconsistency or ambiguity, for flavour.



Another post-Lord of the Rings internal purposed inconsistency is the history of the Elessar stone. Surely we can find [or arguably find] more examples of Tolkien trying to make things consistent, but that doesn't rule out a measure of purposed ambiguity or purposed [even seeming] inconsistency in his later years.

Glorfindel is a character living in Imladris during Bilbo's lifetime [and Bilbo's stay there]. Not exactly the same scenario as with Maglor however [not that you said it was], as to my mind his ultimate fate seems far more shrouded in mythic-historical mist...

... a good case for the poetry to describe that Maglor cast himself and the Silmaril into the Sea, while another prose text says he cast not himself but the Silmaril into the Sea. Is this the case? I don't know, but I'm not sure that Tolkien would have ruled it out in a post-lord of the Rings phase even if he was naturally, and generally speaking, concerned with consistency.





Tolkien does try to re-write the existing myths, yes, but for whatever reason he never gets very far however, and we can find enough late[er] examples of JRRT characterizing the Silmarillion as a mostly Mannish account.

In my opinion this was the solution JRRT landed on rather than re-write the older, already existing legends -- at least drastically re-write them.



Maybe depends upon what a 'few' is

I myself have never been a proponent of taking Tolkien's extant work as 'all internal' and never mind the inconsistencies because it's like some Primary World example...

... however, again, I would say that The Drowing of Anadune is a great example of purposed inconsistency due to author variation, and I believe Tolkien was happy with this variation in a post-Lord of the Rings phase of his work.

There are a few examples, as you mentioned with the Elessar, but quite a few of the variants in different stories are simply due to mistakes Tolkien made in later life. For instance when he refers to Celebrimbor making both Elessar's. This cannot really work and it is something that Tolkien probably would have rejected due to it contradicting what is in LOTR

Which contradiction in the variation n the Drowning of Anadune are you talking about?