Reply to previous thread

[Eve]

I actually just popped in out of curiosity to see if the thread had been dropped, and was astonished to see 78 posts! For those who think I fled out of cowardice, I may as well tell you what's been happening. I was staying at my aunt's in Israel. My cousin (her daughter), who suffers from two rare and horrendous conditions, got taken into hospital seriously ill; to give you a rough idea, she probably wasn't able to eat anything at all for about a week (after that, they managed to get a feeding tube into her stomach), she was on an IV when they could actually get it into her, I don't think she slept for several days at a stretch because of the constant agonising pain, and she's so ill that she weighs about 5 1/2 stone (perhaps less). She's out of hospital by now, but we're still scared stiff; my step-father asked me if I thought she was going to live when he picked me up from the airport (I flew back to London earlier than planned, they had enough on their plate without having a guest in the flat), and I said I don't dare think about that. In addition, I am disabled with ME myself and currently having a serious relapse, which has meant that most of the time I can barely get of bed and as far as the kitchen to get some food, let alone onto the computer. I've had more important things to worry about. And no, I haven't personally been through the army, but half my family and plenty of my friends have, so I do know quite a lot about it.

And no, I wasn't scared of your arguments, but I posted that message in the hope of actually discussing the topic. Only about 10% of the replies did so seriously; the rest was fighting and insult-flinging, and I can think of better ways to discuss something (in fact, the main reason for leaving was boredom). Getting all upset about how dare I even suggest there's a gay subtext in anything is not a discussion of the topic. I also got rather bored with the quarrels about should we discuss sex in literature, and is there a difference between friendship, love and a sexual relationship (of course there is, and there's also an interesting grey area in between, which is what I was trying to look at).

For those who took the trouble to wade through all that, one thing I noticed coming up was references to Tolkien's war experiences. Very interesting. Sorry for quoting an outside source yet again (whoever it was who objected to my comparing Galadriel and Celeborn to the Bennetts, all I was doing was pointing out that one pair have a realistic relationship whereas the other don't, you know perfectly well that I wasn't saying Galadriel was like Mrs Bennett - the mind boggles at the idea, so thanks for tha laugh at least!), but have a look at some of Siegfried Sassoon's work, and possibly Wilfred Owen (I don't know whether Owen also wrote about it, but he was certainly in and writing about WW1, and gay - in fact, he developed rather a crush on Sassoon when they met at Craiglockhart Military Hospital and worked on his poetry together, bless him). Apparently there was quite a problem in WW1, when they were busy encouraging "brotherly love" as a means of helping the men to get through these appalling experiences alive and sane, but at the same time worrying that this "brotherly love" could go too far. Sassoon was warned to keep his head down, as he was rather prominent after his anti-war protest, had written a few poems about his fellow soldiers that were more than friendly (brave man, I'd never have dared under the circumstances), and there was a lot of anti-gay feeling, especially after the notorious Oscar Wilde trial. But anyway, the whole issue of how men in war (under enormous pressure, having to trust each other with their lives, little or no access to women) react to each other, and the sometimes ambiguous nature of the relationships they form, is a very interesting one. One thing I've noticed about the Israelis, who all have to go through 2 or 3 years national service (and real national service, you don't get to age 20 without attending a few funerals in Israel) is that they seem to be far more relaxed about being affectionate with each other, even with members of the same sex, and without permanently worrying that this might be seen as gay. Although I'm not quite sure how that relates to the amount of homophobia in Israel (more than I'd expected, unfortunately).

Having thought I'd left my Sassoon poems in London, I've just found them. Usually, the relationship Sassoon is described as having with his men is a paternal one: he was protective of them, and in fact used "looking after my boys" as part of his justification for going back to the front despite hating the war: ah, just found the perfect quotation, "Love drove me to rebel./ Love drives me back to grope with them through hell,/ And in their tortured eyes I stand forgiven." (Banishment)

The two that I've heard quoted most often with regard to Sassoon and sexuality (the first one commenting on the strange relationship between sex and war, not the first time images of rape and violation have been used - and no, I didn't put the sex in! I prefer the second, personally, which I find very moving):

The Kiss

To these I turn, in these I trust -
Brother Lead and Sister Steel.
To his blind power I make appeal,
I guard her beauty clean from rust.

He spins and burns and loves the air,
And splits a skull to win my priase;
But up the nobly marching days
She glitters naked, cold and fair.

Sweet Sister, grant your soldier this:
That in good fury he may feel
The body where he sets his heel
Quail from your downward darting kiss.

The Dug-Out

Why do you lie with your legs ungainly huddled,
And one arm bent across your sullen, cold,
Exhausted face? It hurts my heart to watch you,
Deep-shadow'd from the candle's guttering gold;
And you wonder why I shake you by the shoulders;
Drowsy, you mumble and sigh and turn your head...
You are too young to fall asleep forever;
And when you sleep you remind me of the dead.

Now doesn't that sound like Frodo and Sam, that last one? Not entirely sure it was the one I was after, I remember a friend talking about this subject and talking about an interesting one where he's watching a young soldier sleep, so I think it's this one. Very beautiful, very moving, and yes, his feelings are somewhat ambiguous. To compare it to Frodo and Sam, the interesting thing is that although the relationship is fairly unequally divided in terms of affection, with Sam worshipping Frodo and not getting as much in return, if you imagined that poem being one of them watching the other sleep in Mordor, it could be either way round.

If you want to use Legolas and Gimli, or Merry and Pippin, as examples of the kind of pairing-off which are about close ties of friendship without romantic (not the right word, but I'm tired and can't think of the right one, I'm not really talking about sexual feelings) overtones, and which someone pointed out are a phenomen common amongst men in war situations, then compare that with the totally different relationship between Frodo and Sam. This thread is so long I only skim-read it, but I did notice something interesting about how one-sided the relationship is (can't remember, did anyone pick up on the suggestion I made about how maybe Frodo is too bound up with the Ring ever to get that close to a human being?), also about how it was affected by social class.

I don't know what Tolkien saw in the trenches, he's not a writer whose letters etc. I plan to read (more likely Sassoon or someone like that), apart from presumably going through hell. My guess is that he will have seen the strong male bonding that rseulted in very intense friendships, mostly non-sexual as far as I am aware (that's not the right word either, as I said love is only partly connected to sex, and there is a definite difference between the love of friendship and the love of partnership even without sex - I love my best friend like a brother, but the thought of the kind of intimacy between lovers, even without the sexual side, just the emotional side, is like incest) - oh dear, it's late at night and my sentences are getting tangled! Anyway, my guess is that he also saw the deeper relationships that did develop between some men, and put that into the relationship between Frodo and Sam. When it's a world purely of men, as in war, as in prisons - well, humans are sexual beings (especially men!), and quite apart from the 10% who are gay anyway, a lot of friendships end up becoming a lot closer and more intense than they might have in a mixed environment.

Just by-the-by, I'd say that calling any of the relationships in this novel openly passionate (I'm saying "openly" to exclude the ones between men) is reading too much into it! I'd personally say that the straight ones are not terribly interesting, for whatever reason (women don't tend to do too well in epic etc., as we were discussing), but the relationships between men are fascinating and vary enormously. Come to think of it, the concept of a kind of brotherhood does come up again and again. The brotherhood of the wizards, for example, and the way Saruman';s betrayal of that deeply hurts Gandalf. Legolas and Gimli helping to cement race relations (I still get irritated at the way Tolkien has them enemies one day and bestest friends the next, and chickens out of describing the changeover apart from hinting that it might have something to do with Gimli's admiration for Galadriel - dammit, that would have been a really interesting scene!). The way the hobbits Stick Together.

ach, I'm tired and this is hardly most tidily-written post of my life. Considering that I still don't think this is a good place to be discussing it, I don't even know why I'm bothering! Probably for the two or three people who actually appeared interested in the topic (can't remember other names, sorry, one was very long and began with M I think, but Lush, thanks for your input and support!) Hope you enjoy the Sassoon poems; if you want to discuss the theme of men's relationships in war and how that relates to Tolkien's writing, then I'll probably only be back once to copy all this onto a Word document when I'm less tired, either for e-mail discussion with friends or in case I find a Tolkien discussion board that is more open-minded. If you know of one, let me know and I might see you there! I haven't been to the Guardian books talk board in ages; it's certainly not bigoted, although I might have the opposite problem of people not really wanting to discuss Tolkien. There's a thread somewhere about is the LOTR all a lot of rubbish (no, they didn't all say it was, they're mature enough over there to discuss something like that without flaming each other, plus they're not obsessive about it either - in fact, some of them even made jokes!), so they might not want to bother. Oh well, I'll go and tell them what happened, and if anyone fancies having a real discussion about this and other issues in the text over there, I'll let you know. As I mentioned somewhere, I'd be interested in starting up a discussion on concepts of femininity and fertility in LOTR (think of how the elves seem to be in some ways feminine, with several powerful female figures and lots of trees, flowers and singing, and in other ways very barren, while the world of the hobbits is all about fruitfulness and seems the most "natural" of all. Try to imagine a pregnant elf and you'll see what I mean). Here is obviously not the place, since I really can't be bothered writing 2,000 words explaining how images of fertility are not the same as sex.

One thing I have learnt is not to waste my time rising to people's bait. If there are people here who think that anything queer is inherently filthy, wrong and shouldn't be applied to their favourite book (and I like that attitude about as much as I like the attitudes that being black or Jewish is filthy, wrong etc.), and they seem to be the majority on this site, then we're never going to end up discussing my original question, so there's no point even trying. If I want to fight homophobia, I can go to that meeting with the chap from the council next week. And out of curiosity, why on earth are some people getting so upset because I'm comparing LOTR to other texts? No text exists in a vacuum, they're all inter-linked, and it's fascinating to compare one to another. You yourselves were bringing up references to both ancient epic and medieval romances (neither of which I'd classify as modern fantasy, for whoever was disputing that point, though I'd certainly say both influenced it and were perhaps its forerunners). Some people sounded like they were feeling threatened because they'd not actually read any other books! I'm sure you're not all like that, but it was quite curious to see.

One last thing (I admit I'm partly writing this to reply to all the people who irked me!): saying "I'm not homophobic, I'm very tolerant, some of my friends are gay," is a dead giveaway.

[Enkanowen]

you're just trying to dig into a non-existant grey area. It is indeed insulting a wonderful work of art by implying to male characters cannot have a beautiful close friendship. Especially since Tolkien describes those relationships as friendships. They are nothing more and nothing less, so why bother trying to make a fuss about something that isn't.

[obloquy]

"I can't stand intolerance!"

"Open-mindedness" does not mean adopting every value or belief that you are exposed to. Declaring a group of people (or just one) "close-minded" because their beliefs differ from yours is prejudice.

You seem very impressed with yourself. Just remember that your opinions on morality don't make you more intelligent than anyone else.

Grow up. Elsewhere.

[Carannillion]

I agree. Eve, you seem to argue just for the sake of arguing. Do it somewhere else. Write a paper on it, and see if you can get a doctorate degree or something, but not here. A thread does not have to end with everybody agreeing (with you). Leave it.

[Mithadan]

Once again, people, the subject of this thread is not Eve or her personal philosophies or preferences. Anyone inclined to respond to this or any other thread by criticizing another poster should not do so. This subject is one I have seen discussed many times before, often with similar responses. Because it has come up so often, I view this as a valid topic for discussion even if I do not agree with Eve's position (that's what discussion and debate is all about, isn't it? asserting your arguments and trying to persuade others to adopt your position). Let's not allow this to degenerate please. Good old fashioned rule of thumb - if you can't say something in a nice way, don't say anything.

[Mister Underhill]

Good advice, Mith. I applaud your heroic efforts to keep this discussion in line with the usual Downs tone. I will chip in to add a few points: both this thread and its progenitor would probably have lived a bit more comfortably in one of The Books forums. Topics that seek to address complex, controversial, and/or philosophical arguments and inquiries are probably better started there.

Also, if you feel compelled to address a provocative issue in an aggressive manner, don't be surprised when you provoke a strong response. Making general accusations about the membership of a board being everything from boring to bigoted to unread is not likely to keep a discussion focused on the issues.

Finally, the Downs has a history of entertaining just about any line of discussion and allowing temperatures to rise as long things don't devolve into flame wars and personal attacks. If the mods decide that someone needs to take a walk (a rare thing indeed up to this point), we'll take steps in that direction. The hosts of the party reserve the right to give a guest the boot, so if you have a strong complaint against someone, please take it to one of us (Barrow-Wight, Sharkû, Mithadan, myself, or the more elusive Gilthalion) instead of showing someone the door yourself.

Now then, let's talk Tolkien.

[Fenrir]

While in the author's mind there would have been no more than a close relationship between Frodo and Sam, the readers may all come to their own individual conclusion. My own opinion is the most common, I feel there is no need to write more to support this, there already being many posters who share my viewpoint and who have put forward their beliefs far more clearly and concisely than I ever could. Thanks to Mith and Mister Underhill for keeping the debates friendly.

[Turambar]

. . . if you can't say something in a nice way, don't say anything.

Mithadan - based on the above, you owe a copyright fee to my mother.

Eve - for my part, I regret that my response in the original thread was so snarly. Must have been having a bad day.
[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] I agree with the basic point that Frodo's and Sam's friendship is described in much greater detail than Aragorn's and Arwen's romance, which is described only in stylized, "courtly" and ideal terms. I personally don't think this creates a gay subtext, but it's certainly a legitimate topic of discussion. I just don't happen to be interested in it, which is why I should have followed Mith's (and Nana's) rule of thumb and said nothing. Peace. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Eve]

OK, here's where we're having a nice civilised discussion of this topic if anyone wants to join us (remarkably brief, actually, since no one particularly disagrees, but then there's anpther thread on the site about gay fiction, so they're not precisely homophobic):
http://booktalk.guardian.co.uk/

I haven't read the replies to yesterday's post, by the way, since they seem to be more of the same. I really wouldn't bother registering with Guardian Talk if you only want to queer-bash, since about a dozen or so people would complain and the moderator would throw you out pretty fast. If you're interested in having an intelligent discussion of the Lord of the Rings, or any other book for that matter, then do join us.

And a totally hilarious page you must read, a sort of Aragorn Jones' Diary:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cas...day/2001/12/30

Don't wish to alarm you, but it seems I'm not the first person to have thought of that perverted idea...

[onewhitetree]

Not gay intolerance. You intolerance.

[Mister Underhill]

Eve, apparently you are interested only in discussion with people who share your opinions. Maybe you would be better off at your booktalk where everyone agrees with you, since sarcastic condescension and name calling aren’t in keeping with the Downs’ usual style, and in any case you seemingly can’t even be bothered to read the replies that you work so hard to provoke here.

If you want to continue posting here, I suggest that you hold to the same standards of respectful discussion that we ask of our other members. You may also want to keep in mind that we are primarily a Tolkien board rather than a forum for discussion of gay history and/or gay literature at large, so if you don’t find tons of like-minded replies to your wide-ranging posts, you shouldn’t feel so put out.

If, on the other hand, your only purpose in posting is simply to bait others, you probably ought to look elsewhere. I’m sure you can find other boards where the vitriol flows more freely and your provocative style will yield much more fecund results. You’d be getting a poor return on your investment here since we try to keep that stuff to a minimum. You may also want to consider the possibility that the rampant homophobia you seem to see everywhere may actually only be a reaction to your discussion style.

I’m going to ask everyone else who cares to reply in this thread to address the issues and follow Mith’s advice above.

[Turambar]

I followed Eve's link, here she is on that site (using the name Klytemnestra!) discussing her experience on the 'downs:

I'll go back to the site and bring over some of the stuff I wrote there, leaving out the bits where I had to explain to them that yes, there is sex in literature, yes, there's more to fairy tales than meets the eye, no, I'm not obsessed with sex, and yes, I do know there's a difference between love and romance (the grey area in between's interesting though).

Can't believe I was stupid to try to start up serious discussion on a site full of geeks who were all busy arguing about the enthralling topic of whether balrogs had wings or not. Now arachnophobia's a bit more interesting than that!

Hmmm. Is there possibly an exception to Mithadan's Rule ? Please ?

[Alkanoonion]

I also believe that if you read the book or watch the movie you could assume that there might have been some gay undertones. Stop don’t hit me …….. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Turambar]

Sorry, this is a guilty pleasure. Here's more Eve from her way-more-intelligent-literary site:

That is extraordinarily funny! Must post it to that wretched site (that's us, guys) where I actually ended up caving in and saying, OK, Legolas and Gimli are Just Good Friends. Does anyone else wonder about the way they enter Lothian, sorry, Lorien, as sworn enemies, and leave bestest friends, with no explanation why apart from the hint that Legolas approves of Gimli's sudden adoration of Galadriel? Maybe Galadriel's just a good old-fashioned *** hag, or perhaps it's one of those gay men things I never quite understand, like worshipping Madonna (or whoever it's meant to be).

[Lush]

Oh blimey!
Never did I think that the ghosts of the "gay subtext" thread would come to haunt us in such a way. It's too bad that Eve became so upset, so quickly. But she is sick, she says, and that could be part of the problem. As for us, let's not do the same.
I doubt that Eve will be coming back; I wish her well, and hope that she will refrain from any more animosity. I don't believe that she reacted to her critics in porper fashion, but a few of us could have been gentler too.
People, please, let's not get bogged down in all this.

[Turambar]

I only posted her erudite comments from the other site because (1) she invited us to go to that site and (2) they were FUNNY (given the context of her sneering remarks about us)! Maybe it's just my sense of humor . . .

[onewhitetree]

Not just yours. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Turambar]

OWT - I've read like 12 Dickens novels, I don't remember that quote. What's it from?

[Lush]

Oh, it is funny. I personally don't mind being called a geek, I actually enjoy it. I have a tendency to fall in love with geeks, and all their geekish tendencies, and they...well, they're never comfortable around me. So maybe if Eve can convince them, I'll have someone to spend Saturday night on the couch with, watching Star Wars, as opposed to constant partying. But as for everyone else, their views on geekdom may not be quite the same as mine...

[onewhitetree]

It's from Barnaby Rudge, one of his first and somewhat lesser-known novels. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Rhudladion]

I personnaly think that all the characters in the LOTR are homosexual.

I think that all the Balrogs have a Nazgul mate. Bill the Donkey is in love with Shadowfax. Treebeard actually despises Entwives, and he has a secret relationship with Old Man Willow. Goldberry? She's really a man-old Tom's Kind-of funny, ya know?
And Gandalf...well, let's just say there's a reason he doesn't talk about Rhadagast all that much.

Give me a break!!!! If Tolkien had wanted there to be homosexual themes in his book, he would have written it outright; just as every other theme in his works are strong and unmistakable.
Sam had a girl for goodness sake! What's next...a discussion about bi-sexuality?

I agree with those of small member numbers, in that all kinds of discussion are material for the site, but let's get back to Balrog wings....they're cooler!

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

Rhud I disagree with your statement that every theme is overt-else how can we always find new depth each time we read it??
I haven't read the original thread on this subject, simply because the above posts seemed to suggest it was nearing venomous!
Personally I don't see how assuming that gay subtexts etc. are present is any more intelligent or "open-minded" than assuming that they aren't-each is simply that, an assumption. Based on the facts I think that the male-male relationships between the hobbits, Gimli-Legolas etc are simply brotherly and comradely, as there is no real suggestion to the contrary. Strong love between members of the same gender does not have to be sexual in its nature, nor do I believe that it is in these cases.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Rhudladion]

Eowyn,
I appreciate your comments, though I was really looking for a laugh.

I do not think that a work with overt themes exists in contradiction to depth, though. While there may be some hidden themes and meanings, major themes such as friendship, love, courage, good vs. evil are fairly evident. Yet they undoubtedly remain vast, able to be delved into more than Moria.

...and don't be too political in an effort to maintain peace. For your observations about friendship and comeradery are certainly not assumptions if there is evidence, as you have stated, for them.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Rhudladion ]

[Tirinor]

I applaud Mister underhill and Mithadan for their expert handling of a potentially exhaustive situation. with your wisdom you have spared us all from wasting our time engaging with such sophistry. There are few weapons as devastating as ignorance empowered by education. thank you for your diligence.

on a lighter note:

Hey Rhud, you forgot about the sauraman-deneother-sauron long distance three way via the palantirs.


p.s. did any of you think those poems were anything more than war poems? I guess you can interpret anything as anything if you approach it with your conclusion already drawn.

[Turambar]

Gee I wonder what Eve would make of this actual quote from Galadriel:

It is said that the skill of the Dwarves is in their hands rather than in their tongues - - yet that is not true of Gimli

Aiiieeee !

[onewhitetree]

LOL!!! You just earned yourself a point!

[Lush]

HAHAHAHAHA
Turambar, next time, WARN US before you post something THIS funny. I narrowly missed knocking my Coke onto my keyboard!

[Elendil]

LOL Turambar, I always thought LOTR was for adults, now I'm sure! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Turambar]

From Shelob's Lair:

and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, thrust herself upon a bitter spike. Deep, deep it pricked, as Sam was crushed slowly to the ground.

Double Aiiieee ! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Elendil]

I wonder if I'll ever be able to read those parts again without laughing....:rolleyes

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

*laughs weakly* thank you for diffusing a hot issue. That Galadriel quote takes the cake, Ha! I'll never be able to read that again without cracking up.

-What are you doing, geeking about?
-Geeky!?? Oh nice Hobbitses, so polite...
-I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you startled me. So what have you been doing?
-Geeking!
-I think I shall grow very tired of that word soon..
-Hullo, Smeagol..
-Smeagol's a geek!
-Now, Smeagol, don't take names for yourself.
-We must takes what's given to us. The nice hobbitses gives it.
-Sam..

You know, I expected Eve's subject to provoke less vitriol and more humor, and was looking forward to it - eep. Not.

Still you can count on me to defend anyone who's being bullied, little Esil the Elf (really, anyone who couldn't tell there was more than one kid posting in that name..), or Eve. Just because you object does not excuse their being treated poorly. If you get ticked off, it's best to not post for a while. It's not worth it. This forum is for fun, it's not real. None of these threads will ever be resolved: Tolkien's dead.

Um Eve... I understand venting a little to your friends, but it's bad form to criticize the Barrow-Downs behind our backs. To be blunt I took some s*** to defend your rights and don't appreciate my favorite Forum being ripped. I'd still do the same, right is right, (can't defend the unpopular without expecting some retaliatory mud... grumble..)

Speaking as a 'Tolkien geek', (how many posts has it been, 200-something now?) Mr. Underhill is correct, you'd have received a better response in the advanced discussion groups. Also please learn the Downs "tweedy" style to join the discussion. It's one of my favorite things about this board. I admit I kinda cringed when I saw the subject in the "Novice" forum, especially right when the movies came out. Spare Mithadan the HobbitMom letters and get the lay of the land.

Here's a deliberately truly geeky metaphor:
If Aragorn jumped off the Corsairs ships without looking where he was first, chances are Anduril "the flame of the West" (oh ha I hope someone notices the triple-edged turn of that phrase) wouldn't do him much good, and his head would be landing in the circles of Minas Tirith, shot "marvelously high."

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

lmao-now all thattttt is part of why I love this place! I was laughing Rhud [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] and what I said was true, but mocking myself for being so grave about it
I'm not gonna even ask you lot how so many orcs came to be produced in Saruman's "workshops"????