Dagor Dagorath/Turin returning?

[elbenprincess]

I´m confused with all the versions of the last battle. In one it is said that Turin will return either from Mandos or from beyond the circles f the world. In another version Turin will return in the War of Wrath, kills a dragon and then left for ever the circles of the world and will not appear in the Dagor Dagorath, insead of him Eonwe will end Morgoth.

And what is all that with Turin to be counted among the gods? I´m not sure, in an old tale? Turin and Ninior are counted as Valar even before the last battle, while in the version Turin takes part in the battle he will become a Valar (nothing is said of Ninior).

I couldn´t really find what Tolkiens final view on that matter was.

Is it right that the version where he takes part in the battle and becomes a Valar is an old one and the other version where he doesn´t take part in the last battle and therefore doesn´t become a Valar is a later version?

Which version do you prefer? The version where he becomes a god or the version where he doesn´t take part in the last battle?

[Galin]

If I recall correctly, the 'last' reference (according to the external chronology) concerns Turin returning to the War of Wrath to slay Ancalagon... or at least Christopher Tolkien has argued that this is the meaning of the Andreth prophecy.

Perhaps notable is that the prophecy is given to Andreth. My feeling is that Tolkien was going to retain some form of a final battle, but it was not to be characterized as a prophecy given by Mandos, and was rather to be imagined as a Mannish idea.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Is it right that the version where he takes part in the battle and becomes a Valar is an old one and the other version where he doesn´t take part in the last battle and therefore doesn´t become a Valar is a later version?

If I recall correctly, the facts are these:

- The oldest version (from the Lost Tales) is that Turin takes part in the final battle, kills Morgoth, and becomes a Vala.

- This was changed in the 1937 QS so that Turin still takes part in the final battle and still kills Morgoth, but he is not counted as one of the Valar. Instead, he 'returns from the halls of Mandos'.

- In the cursory 1950s revisions to this part of QS, 'from the halls of Mandos' became 'from the doom of Men', the words 'and Beren Camlost' were inserted, and then an X was drawn through the whole section. Presumably, we see Tolkien trying out different ideas here.

- The 1950s Valaquenta ends with a statement that Mandos has not said anything about the end of the world (this statement was transplanted to the end of the 'Quenta Silmarillion' in the 1977 published Silmarillion). So it appears that the prophecy of Mandos was at this point rejected, at least from the 'Quenta Silmarillion' tradition.

- Texts from the late 1950s found in HoMe X (including the 'Athrabeth') talk in a general way about 'Arda Remade', suggesting that some idea of an 'end of times' prophecy still existed.

- A text from c. 1968, 'The Problem of Ros', mentions the prophecy of Andreth: that Turin will return at the end of the First Age to kill Ancalagon.

- In the 1972 note and alliterative fragment on the Istari (found in UT), mention is made of the Dagor Dagorath, when Melkor will return and Manwe will descend from Taniquetil, suggesting that this last battle, as distinct from the prophecy concerning Turin, had still not been entirely rejected.

Edit: I was wrong about the date of the note and alliterative fragment; they are from before 1972 and, quite likely, before the 1968 'Problem of Ros'.

[Galin]

- In the 1972 essay and alliterative fragment on the Istari (found in UT), mention is made of the Dagor Dagorath, when Melkor will return and Manwe will descend from Taniquetil, suggesting that this last battle, as distinct from the prophecy concerning Turin, had still not been entirely rejected.

Just wondering which essay you mean.

[Aiwendil]

Looking at UT now, I realize the text I had in mind is more 'note' than 'essay' (it seems to be associated with the brief narrative of the choosing of the Istari). The relevant bits:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

It is said that in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the "Faithful" of that time that "Gandalf" was the last appearance of Manwë himself, before his final withdrawal to the watchtower of Taniquetil. (That Gandalf said that his name "in the West" had been Olórin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an incognito, a mere by-name.) I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was. But I think it was not so. Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Will thou learn the lore that was long secret
of the Five that came from a far country?
One only returned. Others never again
under Men's dominion Middle-earth shall seek
until Dagor Dagorath and the Doom cometh.

[Galin]

OK that's what I guessed, thanks, but neither of these two can be dated to 1972 I think... or at least we don't know that, correct?

I thought (perhaps wrongly) that the Andreth prophecy might be the 'latest' reference which includes Turin, but I'm not sure if it's the latest hint at some sort of final battle.

[Aiwendil]

You know, I think you are right, and I have been misinterpreting what Christopher Tolkien says about the dating of these texts. I had thought that when he said:

I know of no other writings about the Istari save some very rough and in part uninterpretable notes that are certainly much later than any of the foregoing, and probably date from 1972

. . . he was including the note/poem that I mentioned, but now that I look more closely, I think he was referring only to the note immediately following (and the 'uninterpretable' notes that he later managed to interpret and published in HoMe XII). This is supported by the fact that among those late notes given in XII, there is an apparent reference to the narrative of the choosing of the Istari as now being 'lost', which would indicate that it (and presumably the notes on its reverse side) had been written before 1972. As far as I can tell, CT offers no guess as to the date of either the narrative or the note/poem.

One interesting result of this would be that if the narrative is definitely from before 1972, then the latest version of the Blue Wizards' names was clearly 'Morinehtar' and 'Romestamo', not the more popular 'Alatar' and 'Pallando'. (Maybe other people already knew this, but I had always thought it was unclear which set of names was later.)

[Galin]

Yes I agree with all that, meaning that's how I interpret the chronology.

I think we have Morinehtar and Romestar/Romestamo because, or at least possibly because, Tolkien could not find the older text at the moment, and couldn't remember the old names (again at the moment), so he invented new names.

I also think 'Blue Wizards' is earlier than Tolkien (in a letter) doubting the 'other two' had distinctive colours, and so (unless there is something else), this 'Blue Wizards' description may also be more popular than the 'other two'...

... although it's not hard to see why, if so

I note that Hammond and Scull write that with the letter Tolkien seems to have forgotten about these sea blue robes and so on. Possibly of course, but this seems to confirm that Tolkien never again referrred to these Wizards as blue.

That we know of so far? Anyway I digress

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

If I recall correctly, the facts are these:

- The oldest version (from the Lost Tales) is that Turin takes part in the final battle, kills Morgoth, and becomes a Vala.

- This was changed in the 1937 QS so that Turin still takes part in the final battle and still kills Morgoth, but he is not counted as one of the Valar. Instead, he 'returns from the halls of Mandos'.

- In the cursory 1950s revisions to this part of QS, 'from the halls of Mandos' became 'from the doom of Men', the words 'and Beren Camlost' were inserted, and then an X was drawn through the whole section. Presumably, we see Tolkien trying out different ideas here.

- The 1950s Valaquenta ends with a statement that Mandos has not said anything about the end of the world (this statement was transplanted to the end of the 'Quenta Silmarillion' in the 1977 published Silmarillion). So it appears that the prophecy of Mandos was at this point rejected, at least from the 'Quenta Silmarillion' tradition.

- Texts from the late 1950s found in HoMe X (including the 'Athrabeth') talk in a general way about 'Arda Remade', suggesting that some idea of an 'end of times' prophecy still existed.

- A text from c. 1968, 'The Problem of Ros', mentions the prophecy of Andreth: that Turin will return at the end of the First Age to kill Ancalagon.

- In the 1972 essay and alliterative fragment on the Istari (found in UT), mention is made of the Dagor Dagorath, when Melkor will return and Manwe will descend from Taniquetil, suggesting that this last battle, as distinct from the prophecy concerning Turin, had still not been entirely rejected.

The story of Hurin's family is so desperate, so bleak and without any hope, which is why I believe the Tokien wanted Turin to return.

It's obviously impossible to fit Turin slaying Ancalagon the Black into the narrative.

As for the Dagor Dagorath, I am not sure Tolkien disregarded the idea rather than dropped the prophecy coming from Mandos. The Numenoreans certainly must have persevered with a prophecy about his return, but as we see from the Silmarillion, they were confused about a great deal.

When Tolkien discusses Morgoth regaining strength and re-entering Arda he claims thats it is possible since his spirit would once again grow in time. When you add in the very late reference from the essay on Istari, then it does appear there was some vague final battle in Tolkien's mind, but the details of how this was to be known to the world was vague.

[Aiwendil]

When you add in the very late reference from the essay on Istari, then it does appear there was some vague final battle in Tolkien's mind, but the details of how this was to be known to the world was vague.

Note that, per the discussion above, that reference is not as late as I thought.

[Galadriel55]

I personally think that Turin should be the one to deal Morgoth his death blow. As cellurdur said, his tale it so tragic, it makes sense (and poetic justice) that Turin should be the one.

I am perfectly happy with Earendil defeating Ancalagon, though. I would not want Turin to take that part.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Note that, per the discussion above, that reference is not as late as I thought.

Yeh I just flicked through and it seems the essay is from 1954.

[elbenprincess]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I personally think that Turin should be the one to deal Morgoth his death blow. As cellurdur said, his tale it so tragic, it makes sense (and poetic justice) that Turin should be the one.

I am perfectly happy with Earendil defeating Ancalagon, though. I would not want Turin to take that part.

I have no problems with Turin dealing with Melkor, I just don´t like the idea of him being or becoming a Valar and that he seemingly does after fighting Morgoth.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yeh I just flicked through and it seems the essay is from 1954.

The mentions of Dagor Dagorath, though, are not from the 1954 essay; neither are they from the 1972 notes. They are associated with the narrative of the choosing of the Istari, for which, as far as I can see, CT doesn't even hazard a guess as to the date. It certainly seems to me that it is probably later than the 1954 essay, especially given that in that essay it is said that the names of the 'other two' were unknown, while in the narrative of the choosing they are named. But even so, 1954-1972 is a pretty broad range.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I just don´t like the idea of him being or becoming a Valar and that he seemingly does after fighting Morgoth.

Well, in the 1937 QS he kills Morgoth but does not become a Vala.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

The mentions of Dagor Dagorath, though, are not from the 1954 essay; neither are they from the 1972 notes. They are associated with the narrative of the choosing of the Istari, for which, as far as I can see, CT doesn't even hazard a guess as to the date. It certainly seems to me that it is probably later than the 1954 essay, especially given that in that essay it is said that the names of the 'other two' were unknown, while in the narrative of the choosing they are named. But even so, 1954-1972 is a pretty broad range.

I have reread it more thoroughly and it seems we cannot pinpoint a date. I doubt it was in the 70s because Christopher Tolkien does not seem to believe the Second Prophecy of Mandos was retained.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Turin becoming a Valar seems a bit bizarre. They were the
equivalent of angelic spirits. To have a human become one
is rather "unChricstian" if you will, for Tolkien's pre-Christian
Christian theological worldview of Middle-earth.

I imagine he was just playing around with various scenarios,
as he was wont to do.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Turin becoming a Valar seems a bit bizarre. They were the
equivalent of angelic spirits. To have a human become one
is rather "unChricstian" if you will, for Tolkien's pre-Christian
Christian theological worldview of Middle-earth.

I imagine he was just playing around with various scenarios,
as he was wont to do.

Forgive me for being a little blasphemous (I am not Catholic, so I don't know if this argument would wash) But I can sort of see a twisty sort of way Tolkien could allow that without tecnically violating Christian dogma. As far as I remember, Catholocism recognized that non human heavenly beings can also double as saints (or why some of the patron saints are angels and archangels) and perform the functions thereof. And certianly Eurpoean folklore is rife with stories of saints being sent down to earth to basically fulfill the same functions as angles (to carry dircet messages from God, and to intercede in human affairs when God so wills). So in a certain sense, becoming a saint, from the point of view of the individual who it is happening to (laying aside the temportal canonization process) is basically a human spirit being raised up to stand equal with the angels. Thought of that way, there is no real contradiction. Turin commits and act of true holyness (killing Morgoth/Ancalagon i.e. permanently vanquishing a great/the greatest source of evil) and as a reward, is rasied up to stand with the Valar (i.e. the angels of ME). I admit the thing is a bit easier to explain in a pre Cristian light (for one thing, there aren't that many examples in Christianity of an individual being raised to such a level while alive (I can think of citing Elijah who tecnically is taken up into heaven while still alive, but it's an akward fit) but I don't see a direct contradiction.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Turin commits and act of true holyness (killing Morgoth/Ancalagon i.e. permanently vanquishing a great/the greatest source of evil) and as a reward, is rasied up to stand with the Valar (i.e. the angels of ME). I admit the thing is a bit easier to explain in a pre Cristian light (for one thing, there aren't that many examples in Christianity of an individual being raised to such a level while alive (I can think of citing Elijah who tecnically is taken up into heaven while still alive, but it's an akward fit) but I don't see a direct contradiction.

It was Eärendil who slew Ancalagon, not Túrin. The latter killed Glaurung.

At any rate, I don't see Túrin's act, heroic as it was, as "holiness". He did it because Glauring was coming for him, and would have killed all of Brethil in the process.

Bard the Bowman killed a dragon, and managed to do so without committing murder on a lame man afterwards. Does he get to be a Vala too?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It was Eärendil who slew Ancalagon, not Túrin. The latter killed Glaurung.

At any rate, I don't see Túrin's act, heroic as it was, as "holiness". He did it because Glauring was coming for him, and would have killed all of Brethil in the process.

Bard the Bowman killed a dragon, and managed to do so without committing murder on a lame man afterwards. Does he get to be a Vala too?

In Andreth's prophecy Turin comes back to kill Ancalagon.

Turin and his family are the only people to ever be cursed by Morgoth personally. In some ways Morgoth really was the master of Arda. Since everything in Arda to a greater or lesser extent was influenced by his will.

In other matters also it seemed that fortune was unfriendly to him, so that often what he designed went awry, and what he desired he did not gain:-The Children of Hurin

Now that was in Doriath protected by Melian's girdle.

Even so with all that he had against him nobody except Luthien, Beren and Earendil accomplished more in the war against Morgoth.

Turin had his faults and just like Morwen perhaps pride was his greatest flaw, but to live with Morgoth's foot on your neck since childhood is no easy task.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I have no problems with Turin dealing with Melkor, I just don´t like the idea of him being or becoming a Valar and that he seemingly does after fighting Morgoth.

I don't think I like that idea either. Firstly, from the more scientific perspective, you can't turn an apple into an orange. You can't make a man, born in the middle of the FA, into a Vala who created the world. Turin's Valarishness would have been only half-true (ie he could have the power and be granted eternal life, but not the historical/past part). And secondly, because the story needs closure, not a happily-ever-after. When Turin avenges his family, I personally think that he would consider himself fully free of this world, and, having no more purpose in it (as well as finding this satisfaction of achieving the purpose - inner peace?), he would not linger in it.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

he would consider himself fully free of this world, and, having no more purpose in it (as well as finding this satisfaction of achieving the purpose - inner peace?), he would not linger in it.

Welllll, technically, the Dagorath comes at the end of the world - so after it there is no more world to linger IN --- for anyone!

As for the actual changing of the nature of a being (edain to ainu), if that were actually contemplated by Tolkien (in the final story version), I think that could ONLY be accomplished by Eru, and that "IF" (a big "if") Eru chose in his wisdom to do so, he (and he alone) COULD do so.
Whether that would make for a satisfying storyline is a different question.

One part of the matter that intrigues me (i.e. of the story line where Turin "does" come back and slay Morgoth) is that Morgoth, in cursing Hurin's line and following Turin with such ferocity, was then actually training and raising up the tool of his own destruction. Building in Turin such a resolve that his Fea refused to leave Arda and remained in Mandos for the rest of Time - UNTIL the Dagorath and the coming of the end "when Melkor should return".
Oh the Irony!!

Morgoth, you would have been better off yourself had you left Turin alone and let him live out his life unmolested.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think I like that idea either. Firstly, from the more scientific perspective, you can't turn an apple into an orange. You can't make a man, born in the middle of the FA, into a Vala who created the world. Turin's Valarishness would have been only half-true (ie he could have the power and be granted eternal life, but not the historical/past part).

I don't quite understand your point... Elves born in the second age did not take part in the deeds of earlier ages, but are no less elven because of it?

Tulkas entered Arda latter than the other Valar, but he is still one of them.

[Formendacil]

While the "apples can't turn into oranges" argument has merit, it doesn't actually work in Middle-earth because at least one orange turns into an apple (Lúthien's spirit acquires the Doom of Men), one apple turns into an orange (Tuor acquires the Doom of the Elves) and a few are Schrodinger's Fruits--Eärendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen.

So within the rules of Arda, fruit can change its species in certain extraordinary circumstances--and I think we can all agree that the Dagor Dagorath is an extraordinary circumstance.

Obviously, there's still a distinction between being counted as a different type of Eruhin and being counted as a Vala, but there's another angle to consider. The Valar, after all, are all Ainur. In "species" they are no different from the Ainur who remained with Eru or the lesser Ainur known as the Maiar. The question then is whether the essential fact of being a Vala their species of spirit to be Ainu or whether it is solely due to power or authority they exercise, irrespective of species--note, after all, that Melkor was once considered one of the Valar, but lost his "title," one might say, when he turned evil.

[Hoogathy Adanedhel]

This is an issue that fascinates me as a long-time reader of Tolkien and as a fan of Túrin's story. In a way I feel Túrin's tale is somewhat incomplete without knowing that he, of all the Eldar and Edain, has the honour of slaying Morgoth in the end. Unfortunately Tolkien did not leave us with a final version of the Dagor Dagorath, for I'd love to see how it would have ended up in a polished form, perhaps at the end of The Slmarillion.

As far as the issue of Túrin's apotheosis goes, I would say that since it was an element in the earliest version but subsequently dropped from all others suggests that we can discredit it as a simple curious piece of trivia.

[sneha]

I do not want Turin to become a Vala. Somehow it would ring false.
I did not like Turin very much. Somehow his arrogance rubbed me the wrong way and at points I was literally satisfied when he was being punished especially after Nargothrond fell. But I do think he deserves the right to face if not kill Morgoth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

IIRC, in that passage Turin was said "to be numbered with the sons of the Valar." This is problematical in a couple of ways, starting with the fact that Tolkien definitively rejected "children of the Valar" and converted them to Maiar; but also that "numbered among" isn't quite the same as "is."

It's obviously impossible to fit Turin slaying Ancalagon the Black into the narrative.
Surely not *impossible*; one could suppose for instance that Turin was in Vingelot with Earendil, possibly even doing the fighting while Earendil drove the boat in a sort of Trojan War charioteer/spearman arrangement. Perhaps a not unfitting pairing, given that both fellows had non-standard relationships to the Doom of Men.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

IIRC, in that passage Turin was said "to be numbered with the sons of the Valar." This is problematical in a couple of ways, starting with the fact that Tolkien definitively rejected "children of the Valar" and converted them to Maiar; but also that "numbered among" isn't quite the same as "is."

So then it is obvious to imagine that Tolkien could have intended to change “to be numbered with the sons of the Valar” to “to be numbered with the Maiar”, if he intended to include the return of Túrin at all. That is hardly a problem.

Surely not *impossible*; one could suppose for instance that Turin was in Vingelot with Earendil, possibly even doing the fighting while Earendil drove the boat in a sort of Trojan War charioteer/spearman arrangement. Perhaps a not unfitting pairing, given that both fellows had non-standard relationships to the Doom of Men.

Or that possibly Tolkien, who in other passages imagined Túrin coming back to life not in the battle at the end of the First Age but in the Last Battle, may also imagine Ancalagon restored to life.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Of course, the REAL reality is that the War of Wrath narrative was quite old and unrevised, but CT had to use it because there was nothing newer; and while he naturally changed Fionwe > Eonwe etc. to fit later conceptions, the ultimate doom of Turin was too vague to justify ret-conning something in