The random ‘Questions about Tolkien’s early poetry and Unpublished Writing' thread - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

malickfan · 08-15-2013, 03:11 PM

Hi all, (rather random thread I know) I'm currently in the midst of a Tolkien reading marathon I recently read The Lay of Aotrou and Itroun, and can safely say it was amongst Tolkien's best poems, stunning imagery and language as you'd expect, and an interesting break from middle earth-then I found out the poem hadn't been reprinted in English since 1945 so I was probably reading a copyright infringement…Anyway it got me thinking, was there ever a collection of Tolkien’s early/non middle earth poetry released along the lines of Tales from the Perilous Realm? (Does anyone here have an interest in such material?)- I seem to recall there was an edition of his Poems from LOTR, The Hobbit and TAOTB released in the 60's?, but nothing along these lines.

Although I'm aware Tolkien poetry is rather...divisive, there is no denying his poems were a massive influence and aspect of his writing and help set Tolkien apart from other writers, if such a volume was released it would certainly be interesting to see such a release marketed after the hype surrounding The Hobbit films (Obviously the Fall of Arthur and The Legend of Sigurd and Gurdun were poetic volumes, but I've seen more than a few comments on Amazon etc expressing surprise that they weren't middle earth related novels-don't people read the blurb??) if only for the convenience, and to showcase how diverse Tolkien's writing was to the ever increasing audience of his work.

Given how the long promised The Fall of Arthur finally saw a release this year, I was wondering if anyone else would be interested in seeing such a volume or had any knowledge of these poems.

Judging by the following list there is a large amount of unpublished or rare poems by Professor Tolkien:

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Categ...J.R.R._Tolkien

(For the record I'm a relative newbie to this site, and not at all what I'd call a Tolkien expert though I have read most of his books multiple times, and several ancillary works about Tolkien, so I don't know if these topics have been covered elsewhere, or is of interest to any other Barrowdowners, in which case I can only offer my apologies for leading a conversation to knowhere-I have a tendency to ramble. In any case I realise this is a pretty difficult/obscure thing to post about, so any pointers or thoughts would be much appreciated, but please don't feel obliged to reply if there is nothing to say. I do realise this probably reads as a fanboy demanding more books-that was not my intention, I’m simply bad at posting my ideas succinctly….especially for such an obscure enquiry)

I'm aware that many of these poems have been published at least partially in recent years (in Tolkien and The Great War, and The Annontated Hobbit for instance), but many I had never heard of, or at the most only seen extracts (One of the few issues I have with many otherwise excellent books on Tolkien is the references to otherwise unpublished or rare material-don't get me wrong I'm thankful to see such extracts, but it can be a little confusing remembering who and what, and annoying to know that's all we are likely to see, especially when Tolkien’s poetry has been viewed as a relatively niche area-and there’s what, half a dozen versions of Children of Hurin), and I was wondering whether anyone knew anything else about these poems, and why they remain un/re-published.

Given that many were written in the 20’s-40’s for other editors’ publications is it possible they aren’t covered by the Tolkien Estate’s copyright?

Admittedly there are probably very good reasons why The Tolkien Estate dosen't feel comfortable or able to re-release (or publish) such writing, (and it certainly isn't my place to queston why), the market for such a release might be rather small, and the amount of effort and legal obstacles in putting together such a release might be more trouble than its worth, but I personally would find such a collection an interesting idea (and in some respects a pretty bold one), and judging by the Lay of Aotrou and Itroun, a very rewarding one as a reader.

On another difficult, though related note (since most of the unpublished material is equally rather obscure) after getting a tad depressed at the thought of The Fall of Arthur being the last work we will see by Tolkien (I've yet to read it actually), I did a little more surfing on the old 'interweb' (as Peter Kay calls it), and to my surprise found there is a fair amount of the Professor's work yet to see publication (this doesn’t even include the 3000 odd pages of linguistic material being published in Vingwar Tengwar etc)

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Index...ished_material

I was wondering what you guys and gals thought of this material? Would you be interested in seeing incomplete short stories or linguistic essays published? (For my part I’d love to see The End of Bovandium, the lecture on Dragons and his Translation of Bewolf see publication) Or would such material seem like a step to far?-there is afterall something to be said for leaving a few mysteries, and I guess in a way, publishing all of Tolkien’s material would be a bit intrusive.

On the other hand although I seem to remember reading the low sales of the books reportedly nixed an earlier expansion, in interviews Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull have indicated they are open to doing expanded editions of Artist and Illustrator and The Letters of JRR Tolkien, both of which seem to be amongst the most popular of the ancillary titles on Tolkien:

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...ristina-Scull-
Interview.php

http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2011/...ristina-scull/

(I have seen on several other forums (sorry!) queries on expansions, and once again there does seem to be a large number of unpublished/ rare letters meriting a second edition):

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Lette....R._Tolkien%22

As a relative novice when it comes to Tolkien (unlike many others on this site), I'm not overly familiar with his published history or fanbase patterns, so I don't really know whether any of the material I have mentioned would warrant release or frankly be of interest, and as I said above I realise these are quite obscure questions, and arguably insensitive ones with no definite answers… in any case any thoughts or information on these enquiries would be much appreciated and I’m sure I’m not alone in wondering about these writings

(Apologies if that came off as confused ramblings I’ll be sure to keep my posts shorter in future).

Mithalwen · 08-15-2013, 10:58 PM

Poetry is notoriously hard to make money on - Bombadil was exceptional iirc. There may be a reluctance on the part of his Literary Executors to publish work that is unfinished if it doesn't shed light on the wider creation. I doubt copyright would be insurmountable since poetry is usually collectedcand anthologised. However its cost might make the project unviable.

I would love more letters and I think that would be justifiable since the publication of HOME may make more of them relevant.

jallanite · 08-26-2013, 01:03 PM

UK Copyright on Tolkien runs to 2nd September 2043. It is Tolkien’s death plus 80 years, unless the law is changed.

US Copyright is publication date plus 95 years. So “Aotrou and Itroun” will possibly be in public domain in the US in 2040, unless the law is changed. My understanding is that books originally published outside the US by non-Americans are exempt from this requirement, if they are still under copyright in their home country.

Unpublished material currently becomes copyright when it is first legally published with the permission of the current owner. For a letter, the current owner is the writer of the letter or the legal heir to the writer of the letter, which may be a different person from the current owner of the physical or digital letter.

Discussions on changes in the law tend to attempt to reconcile copyright agreements in various countries.

Presuming that “Aotrou and Itroun” is still copyright by The Welsh Review which was last published in 1948, then “Aotrou and Itroun” is owned by the current copyright owner of The Welsh Review material. However The Welsh Review may have only purchased first rights to the poem, this being a norm for periodical publications, in which case “Aotrou and Itroun” is presumably owned by the Tolkien Estate along with most of J. R. R. Tolkien’s other works.

See http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Pesma_o_Otruu_i_Itrun for information on a bilingual Serbian/English edition published in five hundred copies in 2002.

Since the HOME books have sold far better than originally guessed, if the complete Fall of Arthur sells well, then we may see some of the other missing works

malickfan · 08-31-2013, 03:43 AM

Ah Ok, thanks for clearing that up, hopefully we will see some of this materil soon.

Looks like the lay of Aotrou and Itroun I read was breaking copyright then...

But from what I remebering reading in a blog entry by Hammond and Scull there is some sort of legal trouble why it can't be republished i.e the copyright does belong to the sucessors of the Welsh Review.

08-15-2013, 03:11 PM	#1
malickfan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 19	The random ‘Questions about Tolkien’s early poetry and Unpublished Writing' thread Hi all, (rather random thread I know) I'm currently in the midst of a Tolkien reading marathon I recently read The Lay of Aotrou and Itroun, and can safely say it was amongst Tolkien's best poems, stunning imagery and language as you'd expect, and an interesting break from middle earth-then I found out the poem hadn't been reprinted in English since 1945 so I was probably reading a copyright infringement…Anyway it got me thinking, was there ever a collection of Tolkien’s early/non middle earth poetry released along the lines of Tales from the Perilous Realm? (Does anyone here have an interest in such material?)- I seem to recall there was an edition of his Poems from LOTR, The Hobbit and TAOTB released in the 60's?, but nothing along these lines. Although I'm aware Tolkien poetry is rather...divisive, there is no denying his poems were a massive influence and aspect of his writing and help set Tolkien apart from other writers, if such a volume was released it would certainly be interesting to see such a release marketed after the hype surrounding The Hobbit films (Obviously the Fall of Arthur and The Legend of Sigurd and Gurdun were poetic volumes, but I've seen more than a few comments on Amazon etc expressing surprise that they weren't middle earth related novels-don't people read the blurb??) if only for the convenience, and to showcase how diverse Tolkien's writing was to the ever increasing audience of his work. Given how the long promised The Fall of Arthur finally saw a release this year, I was wondering if anyone else would be interested in seeing such a volume or had any knowledge of these poems. Judging by the following list there is a large amount of unpublished or rare poems by Professor Tolkien: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Categ...J.R.R._Tolkien (For the record I'm a relative newbie to this site, and not at all what I'd call a Tolkien expert though I have read most of his books multiple times, and several ancillary works about Tolkien, so I don't know if these topics have been covered elsewhere, or is of interest to any other Barrowdowners, in which case I can only offer my apologies for leading a conversation to knowhere-I have a tendency to ramble. In any case I realise this is a pretty difficult/obscure thing to post about, so any pointers or thoughts would be much appreciated, but please don't feel obliged to reply if there is nothing to say. I do realise this probably reads as a fanboy demanding more books-that was not my intention, I’m simply bad at posting my ideas succinctly….especially for such an obscure enquiry) I'm aware that many of these poems have been published at least partially in recent years (in Tolkien and The Great War, and The Annontated Hobbit for instance), but many I had never heard of, or at the most only seen extracts (One of the few issues I have with many otherwise excellent books on Tolkien is the references to otherwise unpublished or rare material-don't get me wrong I'm thankful to see such extracts, but it can be a little confusing remembering who and what, and annoying to know that's all we are likely to see, especially when Tolkien’s poetry has been viewed as a relatively niche area-and there’s what, half a dozen versions of Children of Hurin), and I was wondering whether anyone knew anything else about these poems, and why they remain un/re-published. Given that many were written in the 20’s-40’s for other editors’ publications is it possible they aren’t covered by the Tolkien Estate’s copyright? Admittedly there are probably very good reasons why The Tolkien Estate dosen't feel comfortable or able to re-release (or publish) such writing, (and it certainly isn't my place to queston why), the market for such a release might be rather small, and the amount of effort and legal obstacles in putting together such a release might be more trouble than its worth, but I personally would find such a collection an interesting idea (and in some respects a pretty bold one), and judging by the Lay of Aotrou and Itroun, a very rewarding one as a reader. On another difficult, though related note (since most of the unpublished material is equally rather obscure) after getting a tad depressed at the thought of The Fall of Arthur being the last work we will see by Tolkien (I've yet to read it actually), I did a little more surfing on the old 'interweb' (as Peter Kay calls it), and to my surprise found there is a fair amount of the Professor's work yet to see publication (this doesn’t even include the 3000 odd pages of linguistic material being published in Vingwar Tengwar etc) http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Index...ished_material I was wondering what you guys and gals thought of this material? Would you be interested in seeing incomplete short stories or linguistic essays published? (For my part I’d love to see The End of Bovandium, the lecture on Dragons and his Translation of Bewolf see publication) Or would such material seem like a step to far?-there is afterall something to be said for leaving a few mysteries, and I guess in a way, publishing all of Tolkien’s material would be a bit intrusive. On the other hand although I seem to remember reading the low sales of the books reportedly nixed an earlier expansion, in interviews Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull have indicated they are open to doing expanded editions of Artist and Illustrator and The Letters of JRR Tolkien, both of which seem to be amongst the most popular of the ancillary titles on Tolkien: http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...ristina-Scull- Interview.php http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2011/...ristina-scull/ (I have seen on several other forums (sorry!) queries on expansions, and once again there does seem to be a large number of unpublished/ rare letters meriting a second edition): http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Lette....R._Tolkien%22 As a relative novice when it comes to Tolkien (unlike many others on this site), I'm not overly familiar with his published history or fanbase patterns, so I don't really know whether any of the material I have mentioned would warrant release or frankly be of interest, and as I said above I realise these are quite obscure questions, and arguably insensitive ones with no definite answers… in any case any thoughts or information on these enquiries would be much appreciated and I’m sure I’m not alone in wondering about these writings (Apologies if that came off as confused ramblings I’ll be sure to keep my posts shorter in future).

08-15-2013, 10:58 PM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	Poetry is notoriously hard to make money on - Bombadil was exceptional iirc. There may be a reluctance on the part of his Literary Executors to publish work that is unfinished if it doesn't shed light on the wider creation. I doubt copyright would be insurmountable since poetry is usually collectedcand anthologised. However its cost might make the project unviable. I would love more letters and I think that would be justifiable since the publication of HOME may make more of them relevant. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-26-2013, 01:03 PM	#3
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	UK Copyright on Tolkien runs to 2nd September 2043. It is Tolkien’s death plus 80 years, unless the law is changed. US Copyright is publication date plus 95 years. So “Aotrou and Itroun” will possibly be in public domain in the US in 2040, unless the law is changed. My understanding is that books originally published outside the US by non-Americans are exempt from this requirement, if they are still under copyright in their home country. Unpublished material currently becomes copyright when it is first legally published with the permission of the current owner. For a letter, the current owner is the writer of the letter or the legal heir to the writer of the letter, which may be a different person from the current owner of the physical or digital letter. Discussions on changes in the law tend to attempt to reconcile copyright agreements in various countries. Presuming that “Aotrou and Itroun” is still copyright by The Welsh Review which was last published in 1948, then “Aotrou and Itroun” is owned by the current copyright owner of The Welsh Review material. However The Welsh Review may have only purchased first rights to the poem, this being a norm for periodical publications, in which case “Aotrou and Itroun” is presumably owned by the Tolkien Estate along with most of J. R. R. Tolkien’s other works. See http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Pesma_o_Otruu_i_Itrun for information on a bilingual Serbian/English edition published in five hundred copies in 2002. Since the HOME books have sold far better than originally guessed, if the complete Fall of Arthur sells well, then we may see some of the other missing works

08-31-2013, 03:43 AM	#4
malickfan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 19	Ah Ok, thanks for clearing that up, hopefully we will see some of this materil soon. Looks like the lay of Aotrou and Itroun I read was breaking copyright then... But from what I remebering reading in a blog entry by Hammond and Scull there is some sort of legal trouble why it can't be republished i.e the copyright does belong to the sucessors of the Welsh Review.