Saving Gollum

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I would say both were behind Sméagol's new-found friendliness.
On the one hand, the oath he had sworn by the Ring brought him into a very close psychological relationship with the Ring-bearer, which forced him to "open up" emotionally.

On the other, I think the fact that his new companions were of his own kind was significant. It's said different times in the books that Hobbits generally preferred the company of other Hobbits, and Gollum wasn't nearly as friendly, it seems, with those noble Mirkwood Elves with whom he was a guest.

This quote from another thread actually brings up a question that, up till now had never occurred to me

Imagine a scenario where the ring is destroyed WITHOUT Sméagol being destroyed with it (either one where Frodo does not succumb at the end and manages to toss the ring in the fire himself, or one where Gollum trips and drops the ring in the fire, but doesn't go over himself.) Do you think that
1. When Gandalf came, he would have taken Gollum back as well (I almost said "Frodo would insist Gandalf bring Gollum as well" but since Frodo and Sam are basically unconscious at this point, they are in no position to insist anything) Given that Gollum is so thin, I doubt the additional weight would be an issue.
2. Frodo would have insisted on doing what he could to see Gollum "healed" if he could, and returned to being Sméagol the Hobbit, up to and including taking him back to Hobbition (he can't go home, as there are no longer hobbits in the Gladden Fields) to try to nurse him
What I am sort of getting at is, is the amount of pity Frodo develops for Gollum over the journey great enough (plus his common compassion for what was once a fellow hobbit) that he would attempt to save him (Frodo does tell Sam not to think harshly of Gollum for biting off his finger). It's probably a hopeless effort (if nothing else, the fact that Gollum is basically bound to the One Ring almost as tightly as a Nazgul is to one of the nine, and the simple fact that Gollum has lived WAAY longer than a hobbit's natural lifespan means that, with the ring destroyed, Gollum probably did not have any meaningfully measurable lifespan left in any case) But, given the opportunity, would Frodo have tried?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

What I am sort of getting at is, is the amount of pity Frodo develops for Gollum over the journey great enough (plus his common compassion for what was once a fellow hobbit) that he would attempt to save him (Frodo does tell Sam not to think harshly of Gollum for biting off his finger). It's probably a hopeless effort (if nothing else, the fact that Gollum is basically bound to the One Ring almost as tightly as a Nazgul is to one of the nine, and the simple fact that Gollum has lived WAAY longer than a hobbit's natural lifespan means that, with the ring destroyed, Gollum probably did not have any meaningfully measurable lifespan left in any case) But, given the opportunity, would Frodo have tried?

I think Frodo would indeed have made the attempt, and probably with Gandalf's blessing.
Remember though, that Gollum himself thought his life would be over if the Ring were to be destroyed.

'And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust.'

ROTK Mount Doom

As you note, the Ring's conquest of Gollum's being was nearly total. Frodo, having been a Ring-bearer for a much shorter period of time, and having had the advantage of knowing the Ring's powers and purpose, wasn't caught by it as easily. Nevertheless, he was in thrall to it enough that its absence left a gaping void in his life, and that was one of the reasons Frodo was compelled to go into the West before his own natural death. In essence, Frodo "died" when the Ring was gone, in that he left the mortal plane.

With Gollum, having the Ring lost forever would have left him with no reason to live, and unfortunately, no motive to try and return to some semblance of the old Sméagol that had been before he encountered it.

[Galadriel55]

I agree that both Gandalf and Frodo would have done their utmost to save Gollum, even if he would not live for long. Frodo even tried saving Wormtongue, of whom he only heard stories, and Saruman, who really had truly malicious intentions and who had all but destroyed the Shire. It stands to reason that Frodo would try to pull Smeagol out of his black hole too.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

With Gollum, having the Ring lost forever would have left him with no reason to live, and unfortunately, no motive to try and return to some semblance of the old Sméagol that had been before he encountered it.

I agree with your earlier thoughts, but this one's not sitting right with me. I think that the whole point of Frodo and/or Gandalf's aid and support in this case is to provide him with the reason - if not a reason to live, then at least a reason to die as Smeagol and not as Gollum. I believe that Gollum would wither soon because the source of his unnatural lifespan would be gone, but the physical death does not necessarily have to be connected to an utter depression. Furthermore, I think that the Ring never served as a motive to bring out the Smeagol. That was purely Frodo's doing. The only thing that the preciousss motivated was Gollum. Without the Ring and with Frodo's guidance, Gollum still has a fair chance to die a hobbit and not a creature, to have a positive end. So, unless he commits suicide in a fit of madness in the first little while while Frodo is still unconscious (and, much as Gandalf would love to help, we need Frodo here to do the job), he has the best chance in the world to wipe clean some of his inner darkness.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that the whole point of Frodo and/or Gandalf's aid and support in this case is to provide him with the reason - if not a reason to live, then at least a reason to die as Smeagol and not as Gollum. I believe that Gollum would wither soon because the source of his unnatural lifespan would be gone, but the physical death does not necessarily have to be connected to an utter depression.

Would the Gollum persona have withered totally? I don't think so. The other Ring-bearers, Bilbo and Frodo (and to a much lesser extent, Sam) all carried a stain from their experience with it. Frodo outright claimed it, and Bilbo, even after its destruction, referred to it as "my ring". Their "Gollum sides" were not exorcised when the Ring was consumed. It took a sojourn in undying Eressëa to cleanse them before they died.
Compound that darkness faced by Bilbo and Frodo a hundred-fold with Gollum. It should be remembered also that Gollum's final act with the Ring was evil: he took it from Frodo, attacking the one he'd sworn to aid. Oath-breaking is a serious business in Middle-earth, and that would be a source of monumental guilt to Sméagol.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Furthermore, I think that the Ring never served as a motive to bring out the Smeagol. That was purely Frodo's doing. The only thing that the preciousss motivated was Gollum. Without the Ring and with Frodo's guidance, Gollum still has a fair chance to die a hobbit and not a creature, to have a positive end. So, unless he commits suicide in a fit of madness in the first little while while Frodo is still unconscious (and, much as Gandalf would love to help, we need Frodo here to do the job), he has the best chance in the world to wipe clean some of his inner darkness.

I still go back to Gollum's own words, that without the Precious, he would die. Frodo himself, after the Ring is gone, is ready to lie down and die on Mount Doom. It was only the exhortation of his long time friend and servant that roused him to do anything to save himself. Sméagol-Gollum would have had no such motivation.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Would the Gollum persona have withered totally? I don't think so. The other Ring-bearers, Bilbo and Frodo (and to a much lesser extent, Sam) all carried a stain from their experience with it. Frodo outright claimed it, and Bilbo, even after its destruction, referred to it as "my ring". Their "Gollum sides" were not exorcised when the Ring was consumed. It took a sojourn in undying Eressëa to cleanse them before they died.
Compound that darkness faced by Bilbo and Frodo a hundred-fold with Gollum. It should be remembered also that Gollum's final act with the Ring was evil: he took it from Frodo, attacking the one he'd sworn to aid. Oath-breaking is a serious business in Middle-earth, and that would be a source of monumental guilt to Sméagol.

I believe that part of the reason that Gollum did fall into Orodruin is that he broke his oath. Frodo told Gollum "if you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom". So the oathbreaking was paid for. However, I suppose here we have to assume that it would be paid for in a different manner.

You have a point about a bit of one's Gollum side remaining after the Ring's destruction, though.

Originally Posted by Inzil

I still go back to Gollum's own words, that without the Precious, he would die. Frodo himself, after the Ring is gone, is ready to lie down and die on Mount Doom. It was only the exhortation of his long time friend and servant that roused him to do anything to save himself. Sméagol-Gollum would have had no such motivation.

Right. When Frodo fought the life-or-death fight with Gollum in Sammath Naur, he fought for the Ring. For his Ring. And it took Sam to wake Frodo up again. It would take Frodo to wake Gollum up again. Maybe not all the way, maybe the progress would be barely visible. There is a chance that there would be no progress at all. However, there is also a chance that there will be some. If Frodo could teach Smeagol to value things in his life other than the Ring - above the Ring, possibly - now that the Ring is gone, only he can succeed in taking him out of his Golum shell, and he will try to do it, and he has a chance of succeeding. Let's go back to the moment when Sam sees Gollum reaching towards Frodo. He was reaching towards Frodo , not towards the Ring, and not because of the Ring, but because of Frodo. All that, when the Ring was literally at his fingertips. If the Ring is not there to tempt him, why would he not be able to reach out like that again? Not right away, of course, and not far, but in time and a little?

I agree with you that at Orodruin, Gollum probably would have lied down to die. Wholeheartedly. However, when I say what I have said above, I am assuming that Gollum survives to the moment when Frodo awakes in Ithilien. Either way, though, and in both cases, would you agree that Frodo would have tried?

[Boromir88]

Gollum would wither into nothing pretty much as soon as the Ring was destroyed (if he hadn't fallen to his own destruction). I imagine sort of like the Ringwraiths, as you said, who had "fizzled out" so to say. The only thing that kept their physical form in Middle-earth was the Ring and when that was gone, their lifeline was gone.

Bilbo ages rapidly after the ring's destruction, but still he's at an age that a physical body could sustain (at least for Hobbit standards). Gollum, being over 500 years old, he similar to a wraith (and was undergoing the "fading" thing, because the Ring doesn't increase one's lifespan it just continually stretches it. When the source is gone, Gollum's gone (and it would be instantaneous) because he was far beyond the years a hobbit body could sustain.

But I promise I'll try to return and not just be a spoil-sport, because I like the hypothetical question of Gollum's rehab post-Ring.

[littlemanpoet]

Yes, Gandalf would have rescued Gollum.

No, Gollum would not have been able to live in the midst of a community of Hobbits, had he been able to survive without the Ring. He is too ruined by the Ring, even if he could survive.

Gollum is no wraith. I don't see him shriveling like one. Maybe it would be more like Saruman, but something in this makes me think not. I think that he would return to being just a very, very old hobbit who, having nothing remaining for which to live, would weaken and die.

My two cents.