Magic in Middle-earth

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Barazinbar just seems to have a nature of its own. One special mountain. I always left it as that in my mind. A stone with a personality.

We can't say that anyone in particular "shaped" it and left a trce of their spirit inside, because Caradhrass is said to dislike both Elves and Dwarves, and Men weren't that lucky either. Even a wizard did not pass. And where the strong failed, even the hobbits failed.

But why specifically Caradhras? I understand that it was done for the purposes of the story, but why not other mountains as well?

I said often places seem to derive their special aura from people and past events– but that's not the only reason. Some things are just "there"... and that's all you can really say about them. I always found the mysterious "what is it?" nature of Caradhras to be one of the things that give the world a sense of depth.

It really disappointed me that the film version turned it into just Saruman spell-casting. I suppose they thought the original version would be confusing.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You mean it's simply Nimrodel's ghost hanging round the stream? Perhaps, though I'd appreciate a source for this– I cannot find this "tale" even at the not-exactly-infallible Tolkiengateway. (The thing about Elves rejecting the call of Mandos is all right, though– it's from Tolkien's later writings, published in "Morgoth's Ring".)

Yep. It may just be Nimrodel's ghost. I tried to find the source on this, but wasn't able to retrace. I remember it as someone's opinion, not as a Tolkien canon reference. I'll try to dig a bit more.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But as a general thing– you can try and explain away individual cases, but it seems hard to me to deny that places in Middle-earth can in themselves be "sacred" or "accursed"– often because of things that happened, or people who lived there. This indeed may be related to "crafting magic".

I'd agree with a place taking on personality or emotion if a people lived there long enough, or an extreme event occurred there. (The Dead Marshes might be an example of the latter. Minas Morgul in the early Fourth Age might be another example of a place taking on the character of its inhabitants.) The process could well be related to crafting magic, where a bit of one's spirit might linger. Caradhras? Maybe something started it long ago, but if so we might never know.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Descendants, not actual sons– so there's no such problem as you assume.

I was thinking of Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, etc... I don't think there could only be one soul for all of the Durins.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

For any lesser being it's more a matter of conjecture– cf. when Sam "calls" the rope to him by saying Galadriel's name. At least Sam thinks that's what happened; Frodo laughs at him and says it was just a badly-tied knot.

One might also credit the rope, or the crafts person who made the rope. Don't really know, though.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I was thinking of Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, etc... I don't think there could only be one soul for all of the Durins.

They were descendants of Durin the Deathless, but none of the Durins that followed Durin I were direct descendants (ie., sons) of the previous Durin. The appearances of Durins seem to be generational, with six versions popping up from the 1st through 4th Ages.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'd agree with a place taking on personality or emotion if a people lived there long enough, or an extreme event occurred there. (The Dead Marshes might be an example of the latter. Minas Morgul in the early Fourth Age might be another example of a place taking on the character of its inhabitants.) The process could well be related to crafting magic, where a bit of one's spirit might linger. Caradhras? Maybe something started it long ago, but if so we might never know.

Another example would be Hollin, where, according to Legolas, the stones still remember the Elves who once lived there.

You know Caradhras is different, though, because there seems to be a real consciousness and purpose behind it, in a way that doesn't apply to the other examples. So I don't know that we can rule out its being inhabited by an actual evil spirit of some kind. There are quite a lot of beings of unknown origin in Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I was thinking of Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, etc... I don't think there could only be one soul for all of the Durins.

Why not?

EDIT:X'd with Morthoron.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I was thinking of Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, etc... I don't think there could only be one soul for all of the Durins.

The Dwarves, at least, believed there was (only one Durin). <quote from Apdx A>

Five times an heir ... received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to BE (Durin) the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world.

While this is only presented as something the Dwarves "believe", we know Tolkien did allow for Elvish reincarnation, and Dwarvish fate is something we know very little about - so it doesn't seem (to me) all that far fetched that one special Dwarvish Fea might remain within Ea and be reborn (reincarnated) multiple times. Why not?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

The Dwarves, at least, believed there was (only one Durin). <quote from Apdx A>While this is only presented as something the Dwarves "believe", we know Tolkien did allow for Elvish reincarnation, and Dwarvish fate is something we know very little about - so it doesn't seem (to me) all that far fetched that one special Dwarvish Fea might remain within Ea and be reborn (reincarnated) multiple times. Why not?

Yes, and Tolkien's (very) late writings point to the fea of Durin returning to an uncorrupted body.

Strange as it might seem: the special connection between a particular fea and its particular hroa looks to have became important to Tolkien: he thus abandoned Elves being reborn (as children) as a form of reincarnation, because they would have 'new' bodies... and JRRT seemingly found an idea to avoid this with the bearded folk as well.

See Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, for late thoughts on this notion.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Another example would be Hollin, where, according to Legolas, the stones still remember the Elves who once lived there.

I'd like to work the other side of this one. Yes, Hollin is an example of a place where the stones have an echo of a people long gone. What might be interesting is that Legolas was able to read this, while to my knowledge no one else could.

Legolas also read Fangorn forest when he Gimli and Aragorn first came there. It was ancient, there were echoes of places far away where the hearts of the trees were black, and I believe he picked up echoes of the entmoot, hints that the forest was about to explode in wrath against Saruman.

The Fangorn example might not be best understood as reading echoes of occupants long gone, but the mood of the current occupants still living. Is he reading the land or is he reading its current people? Is there a major distinction between the two, or might both be an aspect of elven telepathy?

We have touched on elven telepathy before. We had Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond looking mind to mind just before the Rivendell and Lorien parties went their separate ways after Theoden's funeral. We had Galadriel testing the Fellowship. Galadriel also told Frodo that she knew all of Sauron's mind that pertained to the elves. This is impressive given how Saruman and Denethor came to grief through use of the Palantír.

Frodo also asked Galadriel how it was that when he put on the ring he couldn't read the minds of the other ring bearers. Her response was that he had not tried, that he should not try, that he would have to train himself before he could use that power. This sounds right, but how did she know he had not tried? How deep did she go in Frodo's mind? As with Sauron, does she know all of Frodo's mind that pertains to the elves?

In many fantasy books that deal with telepathy, there is an overt theme of the ethics of using the ability. There are things that are done, and things that are not. In Tolkien's works, if there are ethics, they aren't spoken of explicitly. The impression I get is that Galadriel wouldn't share things she learns this way unless it would be vital to her people or the West. However, I'm starting to get the impression that if knowledge is vital, the notion of mental privacy isn't high on her list of ethical principles?

I'd one other thought. When Frodo reaches the base of Mount Doom, he gets 'pushed.' He gets told to go on now, quickly, or it will be too late. I've always sort of assumed that this was Gandalf nudging him on. Now, I'm not so sure. Galadriel? She is the telepath with a mirror to see, while Gandalf is master of fire and light.

I've a few general observations and questions that others might comment on. Galadriel would be better at telepathy than most anyone else, much much better than the average elf? I suspect her ring would enhance her abilities, while her mirror might enhance her range? Still, she sensed a darkness in Fëanor long before either ring or mirror? She would be very good even without external aids?

I don't know that Legolas would be typical. He is son of a king and might be better at reading the land than others. Do others think his ability to read the land might be associated with elven telepathy, or might it be a unique specialized ability like Aragorn's healing and prophecy? Might telepathy be described as reading another's fëa, whether said fëa is linked to a body, a land, or possibly even enchanted items? Any examples of the last?

While Gandalf on occasion will use wizardly techniques such as gestures or words of power, can anyone think of an occasion where such methods have been associated with elven telepathy? I sort of assume Saruman and the other Istari use gestures and words, but this is an assumption. Are there examples of the use of gestures or words of power being used by anyone but Gandalf?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'd like to work the other side of this one. Yes, Hollin is an example of a place where the stones have an echo of a people long gone. What might be interesting is that Legolas was able to read this, while to my knowledge no one else could.

Legolas was the only Elf in the Fellowship. Elves are closer to nature, so they communicate on an invisible level.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Legolas also read Fangorn forest when he Gimli and Aragorn first came there. It was ancient, there were echoes of places far away where the hearts of the trees were black, and I believe he picked up echoes of the entmoot, hints that the forest was about to explode in wrath against Saruman.

Again, Elves are closer to nature and can read and understand things inside of it much better that men, hobbits, and Dwarves. Other Elves can do it too. Legolas said at the council that Elves found traces of Gollum-"ghost" amongst the talks of the animals, but couldn't follow because they lead to Dol Guldur.

Originally Posted by blantyr

The Fangorn example might not be best understood as reading echoes of occupants long gone, but the mood of the current occupants still living. Is he reading the land or is he reading its current people? Is there a major distinction between the two, or might both be an aspect of elven telepathy?

As I said before, he's just an Elf. He's also closer to this particular type of nature - trees - that some other Eves (like Cirdan's folk) are.

Originally Posted by blantyr

We had Galadriel testing the Fellowship. Galadriel also told Frodo that she knew all of Sauron's mind that pertained to the elves. This is impressive given how Saruman and Denethor came to grief through use of the Palantír.

Galadriel is more powerful than Denethor. She is the last descendant of the Kings of Noldor in ME.

She kind of plays the role of Melian in the 3rd Age. In The Sil it says about Morgoth that his thought often came to Doriath, but there was foiled by Melian (sorry, I don't have my book with me now, I can't give the exact quote). Both are equally impressive - a High Elf beating a Maia, and a Maia beating a Vala.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Frodo also asked Galadriel how it was that when he put on the ring he couldn't read the minds of the other ring bearers. Her response was that he had not tried, that he should not try, that he would have to train himself before he could use that power. This sounds right, but how did she know he had not tried? How deep did she go in Frodo's mind? As with Sauron, does she know all of Frodo's mind that pertains to the elves?

Mt guess is that if Frodo would have tried, the result would have been obvious - either on Nenya or on Frodo.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I've a few general observations and questions that others might comment on. Galadriel would be better at telepathy than most anyone else, much much better than the average elf?

I'd assume so, because she is a High Elf of noble birth.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Still, she sensed a darkness in Fëanor long before either ring or mirror?

Intuition. Closeness with nature. Ability to "tell" one's character (that is not unique to her).

Originally Posted by blantyr

She would be very good even without external aids?

I believe so.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I don't know that Legolas would be typical. He is son of a king and might be better at reading the land than others. Do others think his ability to read the land might be associated with elven telepathy, or might it be a unique specialized ability like Aragorn's healing and prophecy?

Neither. He's just an Elf, and all elves are close to nature. Some may be closer to the Sea, others - to trees, but all feel it much keener than other races.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Are there examples of the use of gestures or words of power being used by anyone but Gandalf?

The WK screams am incantation three times before the Gate of Minas Tirith was broken. Aragorn sings something over the blade on Weathertop (I can't remember - was if Frodo's or the Nazguls?).

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Legolas was the only Elf in the Fellowship. Elves are closer to nature, so they communicate on an invisible level.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, that one's basically mental telepathy (Tolkien did actually lay down rules for how it worked, though the essay in question was unknown until a few years ago).

I don't want to disagree with either of the above. I just wonder if one might define mental telepathy as the ability to communicate on an invisible level. As so many of the elves other unusual abilities have aspects of telepathy -- communication from fëa to fëa -- it seems to fit.

In Hollin, Legaolas seemed able to communicate with the rocks. In Fangorn, the forest. In more mundane realities, in order to communicate with something, that something ought to have a fairly advanced brain. In Middle Earth, things without brains can acquire fëa, and you can communicate with them. We have already discussed how a land might absorb something of the personality of the people who lived there, or echo in the aftermath of a strong event. I might suggest that this natural bleed of fëa might be a less structured variation of 'craftsmanship,' the putting of a bit of one's self into an item one builds.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I don't want to disagree with either of the above. I just wonder if one might define mental telepathy as the ability to communicate on an invisible level. As so many of the elves other unusual abilities have aspects of telepathy -- communication from fëa to fëa -- it seems to fit.

In Hollin, Legaolas seemed able to communicate with the rocks. In Fangorn, the forest. In more mundane realities, in order to communicate with something, that something ought to have a fairly advanced brain. In Middle Earth, things without brains can acquire fëa, and you can communicate with them. We have already discussed how a land might absorb something of the personality of the people who lived there, or echo in the aftermath of a strong event. I might suggest that this natural bleed of fëa might be a less structured variation of 'craftsmanship,' the putting of a bit of one's self into an item one builds.

What Legolas feels in Eregion and Fangorn is based on heightened acuity and attentuation with nature, it has nothing whatsover to do with telepathy. The Elves, by their very nature have better hearing, better sight, better acclimation to severe weather and a greater sense of the natural world. He was not "communicating" with nature, rather, he was able to gather an impression of the surroundings.

As far as the "telepathy" aspect of the Elves, there is no evidence it goes beyond the Eldar, as only the truly great Elves (along with Gandalf) were conversing in such a manner. Perhaps it didn't go beyond the Ringbearers themselves.

Edit: I had forgotten about the "Ósanwe-kenta or Enquiry into the Communication of Thought", an eight page postscrips by Tolkien written circa 1960 that explains Elven telepathy. Lammas Pengolodh (the alleged writer of the piece) refers to the Eldar as being in far greater control of their hröa than Men, hence the ability to communicate through the mind, and that the strength of will and leadership ("authority") is one of the principle means of strengthening such communication (hence, the ease with which Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf and Celeborn, all Eldar or Maia, and natural leaders, can converse together so). It might be conjectured that an authoritarian such as Galadriel could speak to Frodo in such a manner because the One Ring gave him the strength of will to do so.

I've got to read up on this.

[Galadriel55]

It all depends on how you define "telepathy". Is it literally "communicating on an invisible level", or is it just "having an invisible/subtle (?) connection".

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It all depends on how you define "telepathy". Is it literally "communicating on an invisible level", or is it just "having an invisible/subtle (?) connection".

Originally Posted by Morthoron

What Legolas feels in Eregion and Fangorn is based on heightened acuity and attentuation with nature, it has nothing whatsover to do with telepathy. The Elves, by their very nature have better hearing, better sight, better acclimation to severe weather and a greater sense of the natural world. He was not "communicating" with nature, rather, he was able to gather an impression of the surroundings.

As far as the "telepathy" aspect of the Elves, there is no evidence it goes beyond the Eldar, as only the truly great Elves (along with Gandalf) were conversing in such a manner. Perhaps it didn't go beyond the Ringbearers themselves.

Edit: I had forgotten about the "Ósanwe-kenta or Enquiry into the Communication of Thought", an eight page postscrips by Tolkien written circa 1960 that explains Elven telepathy. Lammas Pengolodh (the alleged writer of the piece) refers to the Eldar as being in far greater control of their hröa than Men, hence the ability to communicate through the mind, and that the strength of will and leadership ("authority") is one of the principle means of strengthening such communication (hence, the ease with which Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf and Celeborn, all Eldar or Maia, and natural leaders, can converse together so). It might be conjectured that an authoritarian such as Galadriel could speak to Frodo in such a manner because the One Ring gave him the strength of will to do so.

I've got to read up on this.

I spent a bit of time yesterday feeding Ósanwe-kenta into Google. The full essays don't seem to be on line, so I got snippets and second hand reviews. Apparently range is not important. The strength of the more powerful person is more important than the weaker. Urgency can be important. One's mind is by default open to such communication, but one can close off access and such a closure can overcome any effort by the outsider. All minds are essentially similar in nature, but not in power. Valar, Maia and elves have sufficient power to use it effectively, while others would receive rather than initiate. I get the impression that there is a lot more I haven't been able to access.

But getting back to Legolas, the immediate question is whether he got information from Fangorn and Hollin through the traditional five senses of the hröa, or through Ósanwe-kenta and fëa.

I quite appreciate that the five senses of the elves would be acute beyond that of humans. One can see elves picking up subtle nuance of posture, facial expression voice intonation to pick up emotion and intent. Thing is, this requires an entity with both fëa and hröa to have and display emotion, memory and thought. If in Fangorn Legolas had spotted ents or hurons, he might have read their emotions and intents, but how can one read the facial expression of Hollin's rocks?

I would agree that only the more powerful beings could use Ósanwe-kenta well. Legolas, being the son of a king, could well be more adept at it than your typical elf. To limit Ósanwe-kenta to ring bearers only, though, seems far too great a restriction.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

To limit Ósanwe-kenta to ring bearers only, though, seems far too great a restriction.

That is why I added the edit to my last post, as it was too restrictive.

[Roy Tmofl]

If I may beat a dead horse.

Can humans use magic without it being devilry or the craft of the enemy? I mean there are virtually no accounts of humans using magic without it being related to evil.

Such as the ring wraiths some of whom were great sorcerers in their time.

Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the One which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Úlairi, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death. — The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", 346

Now it seems to me that the ring wraiths when still human used their sorcerery for good "in their day."

I also remember something about the Numenorians being able to speak with animals such as birds and what not. But then again that may fall under the category of being close to nature due to their similarity to the Noldor.

Another example is of course the mouth of Sauron but that doesn't help me support a case for good sorcerery.

The only other example I ca think of is when Aragorn calmed the horse with what someone dubbed elf magic in the extended eddition of the lord of the rings. Now I realize that as probably incorrect as that was most likely either his Dunedain abilities or perhaps an ability gained from living with the elves. If it was does that mean that humans can gain the abilites of the elves?

Well then again another bit of "Magic" might be the enchanting of the blade Narsil later turned Andural but that was the work of the elves. Does anyone know if Narsil was forged by the Numenorians?

However whie I may make the argument that humas have the potential to learn perhaps elven magic and use sorcerery for good. I think it may be possible that Tolkien had all forms of sorcrery used by humans almost always go bad for a reason.

Being that really the only beings who use good magic are pretty much only divine such as Mair or half Mair in the case of Luthien and the Valar which may have been their natural powers which could also explain the elves abilities being simply natural to them or the dwarves (of yore who made mighty spells while hammers fell like ringing bells, perhaps talking of their natural ability to enchant items?)

Well anyway. It might certainly might not but also certainly might be thought that Sorcerery is unatural as it doesn't come from the weilder of it, and being that this story is heavily influenced by Roman Catholisism Tolkien may have been trying to perhaps stress the natural evil tendincies of such things as Sorcerery that humans used and perhaps even names such magic witchcraft and devilry at times.

While stressing the goodness of such things as divine power and natural abilities grnted by said divine power.

I'm sorry once again if I'm just beating a dead horse but what do you think?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Roy Tmofl

Can humans use magic without it being devilry or the craft of the enemy? I mean there are virtually no accounts of humans using magic without it being related to evil.

It seems to me that in Middle-earth the use of "magic" by those who do not possess it as part of their native ability, must then be "borrowed" from one who does have it. The perils of doing so seem readily apparent, which I think is why we don't see the Elves offering to lend any Men their Three Rings.

Originally Posted by Roy Tmofl

Now it seems to me that the ring wraiths when still human used their sorcerery for good "in their day."

How was that "sorcery" accomplished, though? Through the Nine Rings under Sauron's influence? That leads back to the borrowing. Is there any evidence they possessed such magical power before they obtained their rings?

Originally Posted by Roy Tmofl

I also remember something about the Numenorians being able to speak with animals such as birds and what not. But then again that may fall under the category of being close to nature due to their similarity to the Noldor.

I would put that into more of an affinity with the natural world, in line with that possessed by Elves (and Hobbits).

Originally Posted by Roy Tmofl

Another example is of course the mouth of Sauron but that doesn't help me support a case for good sorcerery.

I think in his case his magic was similar to the Ringwraiths': Their own beings and wills had been wholly swallowed by Sauron, to the point that they were in practice mere extensions of his own being. The Mouth seems to be a like state, having no name of his own, and being no one apart from his Master.

Originally Posted by Roy Tmofl

The only other example I ca think of is when Aragorn calmed the horse with what someone dubbed elf magic in the extended eddition of the lord of the rings. Now I realize that as probably incorrect as that was most likely either his Dunedain abilities or perhaps an ability gained from living with the elves. If it was does that mean that humans can gain the abilites of the elves?

I don't remember that in the movies, but at any rate I don't consider happenings there to be relevant to the books. Aragorn had elven-blood too though, so maybe that's a consideration.

Originally Posted by Roy Tmofl

However whie I may make the argument that humas have the potential to learn perhaps elven magic and use sorcerery for good. I think it may be possible that Tolkien had all forms of sorcrery used by humans almost always go bad for a reason.

I just don't see Tolkien's magic as being available for just anyone to learn and use. That's my opinion only, though,

[Roy Tmofl]

Ah I see. I like that idea. Magic having to be granted if is not natural. Such as the Dunedain gaining the ability to talk to animals after the valar blessed them and the elves always having this ability and the ability to work magic through song could be possibly because they were granted this as a natural ability by Eru. The drawves may have gained the ability to enchant their works as a blessing from Aule. Now that I think about it the Numenorian swords being magical could once again be from the Valar blesing them as I don't believe any other human race crafted a magic weapon of any kind.

Well anyways. Thank you very much for your help.