Túrin Afflicts the Afflicted

[Inziladun]

It seems curious to me that Túrin's story includes characters with features not common in other Middle-earth tales: physical disabilities.

We do see Thráin the Dwarf losing an eye while fighting Orcs and getting a wound in his leg, and there are possibly other mentions of battle injuries.
However, in Túrin's case, he interacts with no less than three persons who have incapacitating physical issues unrelated to fighting: Sador "Labadal", who apparently cut part of his leg or foot with his own ax; Gwindor, the Elf of Nargothrond, who due to his torment and labor in Angband, was so old and weak that his own people could have thought him an old Man (CoH takes it a step further in saying Gwindor had lost a hand in his escape from Morgoth); and Brandir of Brethil, who was said to have gotten a leg injury some time in his childhood that left him with a limp.

Now, those three have entirely different back stories, and different stations among their people. All seem to have in common though a store of wisdom and patience. They try to give Túrin good advice, which, it could be argued, if he had taken, could have helped him avoid Morgoth's designs.
Also, Túrin steals the hearts of the women loved by two of them, Gwindor and Brandir, and both women die.
Lastly, Túrin causes the deaths of all three: two, Sador and Gwindor, indirectly, and Brandir by overtly killing him with a sword.

All this seems a strange coincidence, if that's what it is. Or, did Tolkien mean something by putting all that in Túrin's tale? Was it a statement that a strong body and fighting prowess ought to give way more often to gentle wisdom? That in Arda, it really is the "weak" who are strong?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

All this seems a strange coincidence, if that's what it is. Or, did Tolkien mean something by putting all that in Túrin's tale? Was it a statement that a strong body and fighting prowess ought to give way more often to gentle wisdom? That in Arda, it really is the "weak" who are strong?

Possibly, but Maedhros would disagree.

I want to write some more, but I don't have time. Very quickly: Turin is strong, passionate, and believes in the sword. Gwindor and Sador once too beleved in the sword. They were disillusioned. Brandir is a sightly different case; he was never particularly fond of the sword, and IIRC that had nothing to do with his injury. Turin thought that he was powerful enough to take on Morgoth's army. Sador and Gwindor (and Brandir too) knew better.

PS: Beleg also knew better, so it's not only the crippled. (THough Beleg did not have this illusion in the first place...)

[Inziladun]

I still find it interesting that Túrin is associated with so many physically weak characters, and does personal harm to each.
Was it somehow part of the fulfillment of Morgoth's curse, with his direction? Or can it really be mere coincidence?

[Nogrod]

Without claiming any expertise on Tolkien's life vs. his works, WW I comes to mind with that interesting point you make Inzil. I have never quite spotted that curious thing there!

I'm not a great fan of biographical interpretation of mostly anything but here I think it might be semi-appropriate... I mean it looks like a too much to be a coincidence, now that you point at it.

So those wounded in battles knew better than those who came in fresh / happened not being wounded? In the trenches of WW I that is, like where the Prof himself was? It doesn't take a psychology major to be able to think there could be a difference in attitude & view of things between someone who has been maimed in a battle and one with "hybris" (put here the specific hybris of Túrin).

Nicely spotted - and merits more thought...

[Nogrod]

Just a wild speculation then...

Every male who has been in the army or a sports team knows the "hero" / tough guy -character.

It is kind of Túrin character... the one who makes the difference, able and willing - and in some ways pathetic in it - but stronger and wilder than others who might know better.

I could see the Prof here looking at the physically stronger and mentally braver (or more blind) guys coming forth in the trenches - who would still be in the main more stupid, childish, and especially more ignorant of the bigger picture / the world outside themsleves.

It's the kind of a school bully being written as a hero, a thing he could have witnessed in the trenches and realised this possibility - well the reality of it...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It's the kind of a school bully being written as a hero, a thing he could have witnessed in the trenches and realised this possibility - well the reality of it...

Túrin does come across as something of a bully, basically using his fighting prowess as a tool to pretty much take over Nargothrond and Brethil. Physically powerful, emotionally weak, lashing out at those who remind him of his own failures, such as Brandir.
I see an echo of that later in Boromir, though obviously without the connections with "disabled" individuals.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Turin thought that he was powerful enough to take on Morgoth's army. Sador and Gwindor (and Brandir too) knew better.

Hey hey let's not forget Túrin will in due course duel with Morgoth himself and slay him!

There's a plenty of other cripples though - Maedhros, Beren, and Frodo too. The cripples in Túrin's story are different in the sense that none of them got hurt doing something heroic (well, except Gwindor, but it's more complex than that).

I agree on Inzil's point about the weak actually being the strong, but I can also see it as part of Morgoth's curse. Túrin knew Labadal before Morgoth cursed Húrin's family - but the curse seems to play a part both in Gwindor's and in Brandir's case. They opposed Túrin's rasher decisions, but their disabilities made it easier for Túrin to get his way because their people were more inclined to follow him and they couldn't stop him.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Hey hey let's not forget Túrin will in due course duel with Morgoth himself and slay him!

When he gets that done, I'll finally cut him a bit of slack.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

but the curse seems to play a part both in Gwindor's and in Brandir's case. They opposed Túrin's rasher decisions, but their disabilities made it easier for Túrin to get his way because their people were more inclined to follow him and they couldn't stop him.

That's an interesting point. Túrin's physical strength and imposing will made him a natural leader, but his wisdom was sadly lacking. And wisdom and patience were precisely what Sador, Gwindor, and Brandir tried to impart to him.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That's an interesting point. Túrin's physical strength and imposing will made him a natural leader, but his wisdom was sadly lacking. And wisdom and patience were precisely what Sador, Gwindor, and Brandir tried to impart to him.

Well, bottom line is - you need a tragic flaw for a tragic hero. What would be the point of the whole story of COH if Turin was a nice guy all around? Sure, he was rash and overconfident and proud and deaf to wise words, and you can say "children, do not try this at home", but ban me from the Downs if it's not my favourite story from the legendarium. That's exactly the beauty of the story; as the Professor said himself, happy stories make a very short and boring telling. Stop looking at it from a practical standpoint, remove yourself to the safe distance of a reader, and enjoy a good tragedy.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, bottom line is - you need a tragic flaw for a tragic hero. What would be the point of the whole story of COH if Turin was a nice guy all around? Sure, he was rash and overconfident and proud and deaf to wise words, and you can say "children, do not try this at home", but ban me from the Downs if it's not my favourite story from the legendarium. That's exactly the beauty of the story; as the Professor said himself, happy stories make a very short and boring telling. Stop looking at it from a practical standpoint, remove yourself to the safe distance of a reader, and enjoy a good tragedy.

If, say, Tuor had been the victim of Morgoth's curse, and had watched everything come crashing down on him when making good decisions, I think it would have been even more tragic. Túrin kept shooting himself in the foot, making the curse that much more workable. Someone who fails regardless of supreme effort is to me the ultimate tragedy.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If, say, Tuor had been the victim of Morgoth's curse, and had watched everything come crashing down on him when making good decisions, I think it would have been even more tragic. Túrin kept shooting himself in the foot, making the curse that much more workable. Someone who fails regardless of supreme effort is to me the ultimate tragedy.

But then where's the tragic flaw? In my opinion, a tragedy is much more tragic (to read!) when the character brings about his destruction by his own hand (which is unrelated to the tragic flaw idea but is just a personal taste). And you don't think Turin made an effort? He wasn't just being a big baby the whole time. He did the utmost to fight Morgoth, and he fought him with mind and body. He has this furious passion in him that keeps him going, so although he's down to his knees he gets up again. The fact that his relations didn't turn out that well and his plans went awry does not diminish the effort; if he's done the utmost but in the wrong direction, he's still done it.

Ah, we'll never agree on this.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Túrin kept shooting himself in the foot, making the curse that much more workable.

I don't think Túrin's decisions were particularly bad, it's just that they always had the worst possible outcome because of the curse. He couldn't have made good decisions, because it's the result that defines whether it was good or bad.

You could argue that the entire Lay of Leithian was a ridiculously bad decision, but it was actually the greatest story in the history of Middle-earth. Similarly, sending the Fellowship to destroy the Ring was an awful decision, but it turned out just fine as well.