The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

He may have been working in secret, but even in this version he is allowed entry into Eregion. If he is being scorned by Galadriel it means he has been admitted into the land. In Lindon in virtually every account he was forbidden from entering.

Yes but even Christopher Tolkien raises this question, noting that Tolkien himself doesn't really explain it. You might, I might, even Tolkien might, but he doesn't.

If Galadriel was not going to stay in Lindon and accept the direct Overlordship of Gil-galad would she be willing to do the same in Eregion?

As far as I recall there is no motive of fleeing Gil-galad's lordship explaining why Galadriel passed to Eregion. Celeborn arguably rules Harlindon incidentally, even if under Gil-galad as High King (and Gil-galad is still High King if they had founded Eregion in any case)...

... the motive for the Noldorin move to Eregion is mithril (Appendix B), or for Galadriel and Celeborn (CG&C), they go to the country about Nenuial first, then Galadriel moves further East, becoming aware of an evil controlling purpose in the world, seemingly proceeding further to the East. And possibly choosing Eregion also because of the Dwarves of Moria.

She often spoke of her desire to rule her own land. It seems odd that she would go the entire Second Age, without trying to rule at least one place.

Tolkien's early idea seems to be that Galadriel left Beleriand in the First Age, and (I assume) she thus ruled Lothlorien with Celeborn even before the Second Age began. Tolkien change Celeborn into a Sindarin Elf however, and (first edition) has him migrate to 'south Greenwood' in the Second Age; so again I assume that Galadriel went with him and essentially ruled in 'Lindorinand' with her husband...

... until The Road Goes Ever On is published, and the reader learns that they both went to Eregion, which also seems to take no notice of the never revised statement in The Lord of the Rings itself (Galadriel speaking): '... for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains...' and so on.

So basically Tolkien appears to make Galadriel 'wait' longer and longer until she takes up rule in Lorien, ultimately awaiting almost two thousand years into the Third Age.

Is there really a reasonable argument for Galadriel not ruling her own realm especially when this is something she had always wished? The Second Age was her chance to do this. I just cannot see Galadriel willingly entering Eregion to be under the Lordship of Celebrimbor.

Well a possible argument could be that Celebrimbor and the Smiths, attracted by Mithril -- which is the certain idea we have in publication from the author actually -- simply founded the realm before Galadriel got there, so she had no choice.


But I look at the texts here. In CG&C Galadriel is in Lothlorien before Sauron comes with war, due to being ousted from rule by the Mirdain (noting that Celebrimbor himself still comes to her for advice after this, incidentally), and is thus in Lothlorien after Eregion is devastated. Yet in the two later accounts noted in Unfinished Tales, what do we have?

Celeborn goes to Lorien after the destruction of Eregion (which itself is a change from CG&C), and later rejoins Galadriel in Lindon. Or another idea. Christopher Tolkien explains:

'The implication of the extract just given is that after Eregion's fall Celeborn led this migration to Lorien, while Galadriel joined Gil-galad in Lindon; but elsewhere, in writing contemporary with this, it is said explicitly that they both at that time 'passed through Moria with a considrable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien'

Christopher Tolkien, Unfinished Tales

It seems that Galadriel is no longer already in Lorien but passes there, unlike in CG&C where she was already in Lorien much earlier and didn't leave until after Sauron was defeated and so on -- again, with the reason for her being there being that she had been ousted from power -- and that was because she had been in power in Eregion in the first place. I note again the following from Words, Phrases And Passages:

'... of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)' entry Yrch

'Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.' entry Lothlorien

'... simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of the...' entry Sindarin

Amroth as Galadriel's son changed. Celeborn's refusal to pass through Moria is gone. Gone (in my opinion) also is the agelong sojourn in Belfalas ('To Lorien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age...'), as Celeborn had never been to Lorien in CG&C, and Celeborn did not go there until far into the Third Age (CG&C). Celebrimbor as a Smith of Gondolin was changed.

What else? Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn is characterized as a 'short and hasty outline, very roughly composed', and although we can't date it exactly is could be earlier than the three quotes from WPP above, but is certainly earlier than the notes I cited that CJRT reveals in Unfinished Tales.

Galin wrote [about the added description in Appendix B]: It seems a rather notable detail to skip that Galadriel and Celeborn were founders and rulers of Eregion! but if that version raised too many questions and had been abandoned...

Cellurdur responded: Odd, but it still leaves the possibility open.

Yes but the only reason to inject Galadriel and Celeborn as founders of Eregion is because we now have access to a very rough outline which contains a number of abandoned concepts. And if this is odd, we can also add RGEO:

'She passed over the mountains of Eredluin with her husband (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion. But it was impossible for one of the High Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea, and the longing to pass over it again to the land of their former bliss. She was now burdened with this desire. In the event, after the fall of Sauron, in reward for all that she had done to oppose him, but above all for her rejection of the Ring when it came within her power, the ban was lifted, and she returned over Sea, as it told at the end of The Lord of the Rings.'

And where it is also told (in The Lord of the Rings that is) that Celeborn did not sail with Galadriel (not at this time at least), despite what he says to Aragorn, and despite what Tolkien says here about the Sea Longing and the land of their 'former bliss' ... so not only is Celeborn Sindarin here, but if Celeborn is from Aman why isn't he returning with Galadriel, given this much about the Sea Longing?

And is Galadriel being rewarded (in part) for allowing Sauron into Eregion where the son of her nephew did not? Maybe...

... but back to Eregion, to my mind the alteration of one word could have shown Tolkien's intent (if so) here: that is, Galadriel and Celeborn 'went' to Eregion? Or 'founded' Eregion.

And since I have RGEO out:

'She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains...'

Which is why the very late, adumbrated tale of an 'unstained' Galadriel is out for me.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I have to say, in brief, that Galin's opinion (and conclusions from many citations) is pretty much where I am on the question. I think the late Unstained Supergaladriel was the aging Tolkien's foray into Mary Sue-ism.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I have to say, in brief, that Galin's opinion (and conclusions from many citations) is pretty much where I am on the question. I think the late Unstained Supergaladriel was the aging Tolkien's foray into Mary Sue-ism.

Well, isn't he as entitled as any to indulge?

[Galin]

My timeline (subject to change with my opinion or mood, or if something below doesn't make sense). Note that I'm not a combiner but rather take an approach that might be described as: if it's a draft and I get even the smallest [subjective] whiff of 'revised' then I'm probably tossing it out.

First Age

Mostly as in the constructed Silmarillion and The Road Goes Ever On. I accept Tolkien's later role for Galadriel at Swanhaven as a defender of the Teleri, but for the record I rather like the idea that she showed up too late to do anything [as I believe was the concept fom the early 1950s].


With a notable cough I 'interpret' Galadriel's line in The Lord of the Rings ['... and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.'] to mean she passed over mountains into Beleriand to ultimately meet Celeborn, a Sindarin Elf and kinsman of Thingol, in Doriath.

There seems to be a bit of a textual issue with Galadriel visiting Finrod in Nargothrond, but I also accept the published Silmarillion that she did visit him.

After that is seems we have Galadriel in Thingol's realm, learning from Melian and having a life with Celeborn there until the Sack of Doriath, based on the brief line [Unfinished Tales] that Celeborn 'escaped the sack of Doriath'.

Second Age

Galadriel has been specially banned from Aman for her role in the Rebellion. She proudly refuses to return anyway [RGEO]

Year

1 Foundation of Lindon and Grey Havens. Gil-galad, son of Arothir son of Angrod, dwells in North Lindon as High King. Celeborn is given a fief to rule in South Lindon, with many Sindar [Of Dwarves And Men]

750 Eregion founded by the Noldor. Celebrimbor the Feanorean is Lord. This Noldorin migration is based on learning that mithril had been discovered in Moria [Appendix B]. At some point Galadriel passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn and went to Eregion [RGEO]

According to one version of the story [internally] at some point before Annatar deluded the Smiths of Eregion [sometime before year 1200 I guess], Celebrimbor makes the Elessar for Galadriel [here I reject that she came from Greenwood to Eregion to speak to Celebrimbor]

Before the building of Barad-dur [c. year 1000] Amdir migrates to Lindorinand and rules the Silvan folk there.

1693 the Three Rings are hidden [Appendix B] At this time perhaps Galadriel recieves Nenya, and possibly travels to Lindon with the other two Rings. One of the details from Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn that I do note concerns her advice to Celebrimbor to send the Three away, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be. If this is so, and she received Nenya, it might be thought that she herself passed to Lindon at this time.

Either that or Nerwen remains in Eregion at this point -- as here we have contemporary but seemingly conflicting statements -- one being that Celeborn ultimately joined Galadriel in Lindon after fortifying Lothlorien, the other being that they both passed to Lorien after Eregion was destroyed.

1695 Sauron invades Eriador. 1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. Gates of Moria are shut. Elrond reteats with remnant of the Noldor. Celeborn passes to Lindorinand to fortify it.

1701 Sauron driven out of Eriador. Again, Celeborn either joins Galadriel in Lindon, or, both having passed to Lindorinand at the destruction of Eregion [UT note], they both remain in the realm of Amdir for a time [I wish I could tell which note was later here, to help me chose one or the other]. If both Galadriel and Celeborn are in Lindorinand, they return to Lindon at some point [making some use of the note where Celeborn rejoins Galadriel in Lindon at least].

And Galadriel and Celeborn return to Lindorinand twice before the Last Alliance [UT note].

During one of these two visits Galadriel begins the planting of mallorn trees in Lindorinand. Possibly all we need is a 'mere' 500 years for the trees to become grown enough for Cerin Amroth in the future, for example, or at least it was said in UT [A description of Numenor] that in Numenor '... the mighty tree malinorne, reaching after five centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressea itself.'] Of course that's Numenor, but it could be that in 500 years the mallorn will grow to its highest height in Middle-earth as well, whatever that is [is it noted? I can't recall].

3431 Gil-galad and Elendil march to Imladris before the Last Alliance. Celebrian and Galadriel possibly go at least this far with Celeborn, so Elrond and Celebrian possibly meet at this point [trying to get them together before TA 109 anyway].

3441 Sauron overthrown. Amdir had been slain in 3434 [at the Battle of Dagorlad] . Second Age ends. Amdir's son Amroth, King of the Silvan Realm.

Third Age

Elrond returns to Imladris [in my timeline] meeting Celebrian again. Possibly at this time they fall in love. Galadriel and Celeborn either remain in Imladris with Celebrian, or the family returns to Lindon at some point.

109 Elrond weds Celebrian [in Imladris in any case I would say, with Celeborn and Galadriel present].

c. 1000 the Istari arrive in Middle-earth. According to another internal version of The Elessar, at some point Olorin brings the jewel to Galadriel [here I again reject that she lived in Greenwood the Great at this point]. Despite that she can employ Nenya at this time, if desired, according to this version Galadriel appears to desire the land about her to be preserved.

1050 a shadow falls on Greenwood. c. 1100 the Wise discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur.

At some point between c. 1100 and c. 1300 Galadriel becomes filled with foreboding and with Celeborn she journeys to Lorien, staying long with Amroth, being especially concerned to learn news of the growing shadow in Mirkwood and the stronghold at Dol Guldur [and see note on mallorn trees below].

Celeborn and Galadriel take long journeys of enquiry in Rhovanion, and ultimately pass over the Misty Mountains to Imladris and dwell there for many years [UT note, Artanis' daughter now probably dwells in Imladris after all, rather than Lindon]

c. 1300 Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains [Appendix B, and this is why I put the return from Rhovanion over the mountains somewhere before this date].

1981 Nain I slain. Dwarves flee Moria. Amroth and Nimrodel lost. Celeborn and Galadriel take up the government of Loriand or Lorinand, by this time called so because of the golden mallorn trees.

Galadriel associates the name Lori(n)and [which itself had altered from earlier Lindorinand due to the golden trees] with Quenya Lorien, itself prefixed with Sindarin loth 'flower' at some point, resulting in Lothlorien among other names.

And so on, as in The Lord of the Rings.

Note on mallorn trees

At this point in the Third Age, c. 1100, Galadriel could plant the mallorn trees as well, and here Nenya is available. Although the Three were directed to the preservation of beauty, they might also be included in: 'But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor.' [letter 131 notes the chief power of all the rings alike was that of preservation, but also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor].

Even if the trees take 500 years to grow to full height [which is not certain really], Cerin Amroth has plenty of time to be considered the heart of the old realm in my opinion, and from around TA 1600 to 1981 the mallorns might be full grown.

However this seems to disagree with a note [UT] that has Amroth's flet being built after about 1,000 years in the Third Age, to watch Dol Guldur at first, for the Trees atop the mound should arguably be quite tall by c. 1100 for him to build a flet therein [instead of being planted at this time] -- although in the late tale of Amroth and Nimrodel itself, it is simply said that Amroth had many years of peace after the defeat of Sauron, and he lived after the manner of the Silvan Elves and '... housed in the tall trees of a great green* mound, ever after called Cerin Amroth.'


So perhaps his flet need not have begun as a watch on Dol Guldur.

But Amroth And Nimrodel seems to suggest (in my opinion) that the mallorn trees of Cerin Amroth should be tall somewhat early in the Third Age, and Legolas' words in The Lord of the Rings also seem to imply that the Galadhrim were living in trees before the Shadow came -- so maybe it's safer to push the planting back to the Second Age again.

Or maybe go with what I think was the early concept, that the mallorn trees grew in Lorien without Galadriel, and before she arrived.

*not a 'green great' mound, I note

[elbenprincess]

Even though the three rings had positive effects, they were still working against nature. They were preventing time from flowing the way it should do. Tolkien even calls the creation of the rings a second fall for the Elves. By making the One Rings they succeeded in making Sauron stronger. Perhaps if Sauron did not have the One Ring then Numenor would have dealt with him themselves and not been destroyed.

How would Numenor not have been destroyed if Sauron did not have the ring, wasn´t Numenor "destroyed" by Eru, after the Numenorians tried to attack the Valar? Sauron was taken capitive by the Numenorians but after some time convinced the king to go to Aman.

For the ringbearers preventing time from flowing and that being a bad thing, it is hinted that Yavanna supportet Galadriels wish that she could hold time

"This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth.

One could think that the Valar have no problem if Galadriel manipulates nature to some degree. I know in some letter Tolkien said it was evil to manipulate nature, but maybe he makes differences in HOW and why it is used, they didn´t used the rings to make them superiour to others and as I understand, that was one of the motives of the smiths in Eregion.

Tolkien even calls the creation of the rings a second fall for the Elves.

Because to motive was bad, for original makers wanted to create a second Valinor and be masters to everyone else. I doubt Galadriel wanted a second Valinor, she would know very well that she is never able to do so IMHO, she just wanted to make herself a nice home, that is comprehensible since she is not able to go to her proper home.

I think it is very brave that they took the risk of being controlled by Sauron if he would find the one ring, I never thought of it, I always thought that they would just take off their rings and then sail to Valinor, but it seems it wouldn´t have been that easy.

I have to say, in brief, that Galin's opinion (and conclusions from many citations) is pretty much where I am on the question. I think the late Unstained Supergaladriel was the aging Tolkien's foray into Mary Sue-ism.

Why is the later, unstained Galadriel Mary Sue-ish? Like rebell Galadriel she was banned, she didn´t took part in the rebellion, but she left at the same time as Feanor, so she came under the curse of Mandos, despite of her non-activity in the rebellion.

but for the misfortune that before she set out the revolt of Fëanor broke out, and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration.
-353, 4 August 1973

If she would have stayed back and waited for the permission to go and even would have gotten the task by the Valar, that I would call Mary Sue-ism.

One character trait of rebell Galadriel is this:

From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only Fëanor.

That sounds more like a Mary Sue than everything else, and in that version she was still "wicked"

IMHO the only Mary Sue in Tolkiens World is Luthien. I have nothing against her, she has a great story, I just miss character depth in her, she´s just too pure, too perfect and too innocent for my taste and therefore boring.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't think you understand what a "Mary Sue" is. It's not the same as Little Miss Sweetness and Light.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

IMHO the only Mary Sue in Tolkien's World is Luthien. I have nothing against her, she has a great story, I just miss character depth in her, she´s just too pure, too perfect and too innocent for my taste and therefore boring.

A while back, I had an opportunity to play in a Middle Earth role playing game set in the late Third Age. I habitually play female characters, and like to create a character that echoes the spirit of the game environment. My primary models were Galadriel, Arwen and Goldberry. Who else?

Not that a beginning character had enough skill points to build a Queen / Princess / Demi goddess, but I tried to build someone who could grow in that direction. To do less didn't seem to honor the spirit of the world.

Pure? Perfect? Innocent? Mary Sue? As a player character, having a good deal of script immunity in her pocket? Sure.

Boring? If one stays at home by the fire, singing and being beautiful, protected by mighty warriors, sure. Joining a fellowship and rubbing all that purity and idealism against wargs in the dark, not so boring. Spending all those skill points on beauty, song and social skills is all well and good, but one ends up without the same sword and archery skills as the guys. I learned why the guys want to keep women in their place at home rather than taking them out on quest. It's hard enough to triumph over Great Evil without constantly looking over one's shoulder to make sure Mary Sue isn't in over her head again.

But having someone who could Sing with a bit of Power came in handy on occasion.

Yes, Tolkien tended to place his imaginary womenfolk up on pedestals. I for one was not content with that. At least Eowyn and Luthien got to have a few adventures, as did my character.

The male characters in the game were protective. When it was their place to travel underground to slay the vile monster, it was Aerlinn's place to stand guard at the door to the cavern. This was very chivalrous of them. Very noble, at least until the vile monster decided to run away and it became Aerlinn's job to hold the door to prevent escape. Fortunately, she didn't have to hold her ground long.

Mary Sue? Somewhat. But Tolkien's ladies were part of the vision. Their presence was and remains a part of the whole. When one reads modern urban romance fantasy, where the lead character is apt to be an oversexed female vampire, werewolf, angel or demon, Tokien's idea of fantasy womankind seems really dated.

But this makes me no less fond of them.

[elbenprincess]

Yes, Tolkien tended to place his imaginary womenfolk up on pedestals. I for one was not content with that. At least Eowyn and Luthien got to have a few adventures, as did my character.

My problem with Luthien is that she all did it for love, not for freedom for example or personal fulfilment. That is Mary -Sue-ish, for me at least. Galadriel never was that way. I see Galadriel as a more independent person as Luthien, even if Luthien decided to accept mortal fate and would never see her family, but again, "only" to be with Beren. Galadriel left her family (temporary) to fight evil and rule a realm of her own, if she gets the chance. Luthein seems soft and sweet, Galadriel determinant.

In modern world Luthien would be a mother and housewife (which is not bad, I don´t want to be disrespectful), while Galadriel would be politican ;-)

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

My problem with Luthien is that she all did it for love, not for freedom for example or personal fulfilment. That is Mary -Sue-ish, for me at least. Galadriel never was that way. I see Galadriel as a more independent person as Luthien, even if Luthien decided to accept mortal fate and would never see her family, but again, "only" to be with Beren. Galadriel left her family (temporary) to fight evil and rule a realm of her own, if she gets the chance. Luthein seems soft and sweet, Galadriel determinant.

In modern world Luthien would be a mother and housewife (which is not bad, I don´t want to be disrespectful), while Galadriel would be politican ;-)

Luthien marched into Hell itself and dared put Morgoth to sleep. Luthien and Beren managed to do what all the Noldor could not, she took a Silmaril from Morgoth.

I don't see the problem in doing something for love. Earendil sailed to Valinor for love of elves and men. This is precisely why they are the greatest and most beloved Children of Illuvatar.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

In modern world Luthien would be a mother and housewife (which is not bad, I don´t want to be disrespectful), while Galadriel would be politican ;-)

I'd like to think Luthien could find some sort of place in the music industry.