Head of the family? Earendil or Luthien? Dark or Golden?

[cellurdur]

This is more frivolous question, but it seems interesting to note that the Kings of Numenor and Elrond/Legolas/Lords of Valandil seem to trace their family through different lines. I think it is mentioned in the POME, that Elrond traced his heritage through Elwing and Luthien. Legolas calls Aragorn a child of Luthien and it seems the Elendil too considered Luthien as the matriarch of their line.

Now on the other hand the kings of Numenor, appear to have Earendil as the patriarch of their family. Ar-pharazon the Goldren and Tar-Aldarion both bring up Earendil when mentioning their ancestry rather than Luthien.

This interesting pattern seems to follow what Tolkien said about the Kings Men and the Faithful. Though at the time of Tar-Aldarion there was no split yet. Still Andunie was where the majority of Beorians lived. It stands to reason that the Lords of Andunie would marry into the great Beorian families and increase their reverence of Luthien. Luthien herself marrying Beren.

Now the Kings men were made mostly of the Marachians. They loved the sea and stands to reason they would greatly admire Earendil and Tuor from the House of Hador. From the writings that we have the kings of Numenor certainly seem to place Earendil as the head of the family.

"You cannot for ever in soft bonds the son of the king, of the blood of Tuor and Earendil".-Unfinished Tales

"for in his anger he deemed no king should ever arise so mighty as to vie with the heir of Earendil"

Following on from this, it stands to reason, that the majority of the Numenorean kings and descendants of Elros were in fact blone like Earendil before them. I think Gondor and Arnor have influenced how we view Numenoreans, when it should not be the case. The majority of the people of Numenor were Marachians and they would be blonde. The Heirs of Elros, most likely repeatedly married Marachians like the majority of their followers.

Lastly is there more to the Luthien/Earendil question than it seems? Elwing wanted to be part of the Eldar, because of Luthien, whilst Earendil wanted to die and pass from the world. Was choosing to place Earendil as the patriarch of the House choosing to live a more traditional Mannish lifestyle compared to the elvish nature of Luthien?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This is more frivolous question, but it seems interesting to note that the Kings of Numenor and Elrond/Legolas/Lords of Valandil seem to trace their family through different lines. I think it is mentioned in the POME, that Elrond traced his heritage through Elwing and Luthien. Legolas calls Aragorn a child of Luthien and it seems the Elendil too considered Luthien as the matriarch of their line.

I don’t see anything odd about the Dúnedain descended from Elros sometimes listing Elros as the founder of their line and sometimes tracing it back to Lúthien who was half-Elf and half-Maia, and so reckoned the most noble person to whom they could trace their descent.

It would be no odder for a King of Judah to sometimes refer to himself as a descendant of David, sometimes a descendant of Judah, and sometimes a descendant of Abraham.

You appear to me to be attempting to extract a meaning where there appears to me to be none. Of course a King of Númenor is likely to refer to Elros as the first King of Númemor. That does not indicate that they did not also recognize that they were descendants also of Eärendil and of Lúthien.

Following on from this, it stands to reason, that the majority of the Numenorean kings and descendants of Elros were in fact blone like Earendil before them. I think Gondor and Arnor have influenced how we view Numenoreans, when it should not be the case. The majority of the people of Numenor were Marachians and they would be blonde. The Heirs of Elros, most likely repeatedly married Marachians like the majority of their followers.

Those who read what Tolkien wrote about the Númenóreans know quite well that the majority of Númenóreans were blond. The also know that not all of the People of Marach were blond and that not all the People of Bëor were brown-haired and that even before the settlement on Númenor there was much intermarriage between those peoples.

Was choosing to place Earendil as the patriarch of the House choosing to live a more traditional Mannish lifestyle compared to the elvish nature of Luthien?

I doubt it. When the Númenórean kings turned against their Elvish tradition they would like likely try not to think much of Lúthien and Eärendil as figures connected with the Elvish tradition. Those who followed the Lords of Andúnië would tend to remember their links with the Elves.

You appear to me to be putting too much weight on individual statements of ancestry.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

I don’t see anything odd about the Dúnedain descended from Elros sometimes listing Elros as the founder of their line and sometimes tracing it back to Lúthien who was half-Elf and half-Maia, and so reckoned the most noble person to whom they could trace their descent.

It would be no odder for a King of Judah to sometimes refer to himself as a descendant of David, sometimes a descendant of Judah, and sometimes a descendant of Abraham.

You appear to me to be attempting to extract a meaning where there appears to me to be none. Of course a King of Númenor is likely to refer to Elros as the first King of Númemor. That does not indicate that they did not also recognize that they were descendants also of Eärendil and of Lúthien.

I don't mention that there is anything strange in mentioning Elros as the head of the Royal House. However, this is different than the way Luthien and Earendil are mentioned.

I was commenting on the prestige given Earendil and Luthien. When it comes to the Numenoreans two distinct ancestors are honoured above all others.

You bring up the example of the Jewish lines. Yet actually if a descendant of Abraham-Judah-David constantly used one name over the other he would indeed be stressing something. If he constantly called himself a child of Abraham, I would imagine he was stressing his claim to the promises given to Abraham. If he said he was of the a son of David, would imply he was stressing his royal lineage.

The Numenorean Kings have many great and powerful ancestors; Fingolfin, Finwe, Turgon, Thingol, Melian, Dior etc. Yet only two are singled out.

Those who read what Tolkien wrote about the Númenóreans know quite well that the majority of Númenóreans were blond. The also know that not all of the People of Marach were blond and that not all the People of Bëor were brown-haired and that even before the settlement on Númenor there was much intermarriage between those peoples.

I don't think Tolkien ever said that the majority of Numenoreans were blond? Could you please provide the quote. This can be inferred from his comment that the majority of the Numenoreans were Marachian.

I doubt it. When the Númenórean kings turned against their Elvish tradition they would like likely try not to think much of Lúthien and Eärendil as figures connected with the Elvish tradition. Those who followed the Lords of Andúnië would tend to remember their links with the Elves.
You appear to me to be putting too much weight on individual statements of ancestry.

Well you are wrong. It is mentioned several times how different kings specifically invoke how the heirs of Earendil should not have to die. Ar-pharazon boast that the heir of Earendil should never have a rival for the title King of Men.

[B]For though the Valar had rewarded them with long life....and they died, even their kings of the seed of Earendil;[/B said by the Kings Men.

And does not my Earendil, my forefather live? Or is he not in the land of Aman.-said by Tar Ciryaton

he deemed no king should ever arise so mighty as to vie with the Heir of Earendil said by Ar-pharazon the Golden


The King's men always evoke the name of Earendil. Elrond on the other hand traces his lineage through Luthien and Thingol. Legolas too chooses to trace Aragorn's heritage through Luthien.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I was commenting on the prestige given Earendil and Luthien. When it comes to the Numenoreans two distinct ancestors are honoured above all others.

That Eärendil had been made immortal and purportedly was visible in the sky bearing the last Silmaril as the planet Venus seems to me to adequately account for the mentions made of him by the kings. Eärendil was simply more famed and renowned to them than the others, for his voyages, for reaching Valinor and summoning the forces who finally defeated Morgoth, for becoming with his wife immortal, and for his slaying of the dragon Ancalagon, for which Eärendil’s mortal son Elros was made first King of Númenor.

Naturally one would imagine that in the latter days of Númenor it might have been more clearly brought out by poets that Eärendil, the father of the line of kings, would have chosen to remain mortal. Or it might not. The poets may have chosen to ignore that Eärendil would have become mortal save for the influence of his wife as they were beginning to interpret the old stores as an indication that immortality in the Undying Lands was the right of mortals.

You bring up the example of the Jewish lines. Yet actually if a descendant of Abraham-Judah-David constantly used one name over the other he would indeed be stressing something. If he constantly called himself a child of Abraham, I would imagine he was stressing his claim to the promises given to Abraham. If he said he was of the a son of David, would imply he was stressing his royal lineage.

Quite so. And since in the case of the Kings of Númenor it was Eärendil who was considered to be the cause of the foundation of Númenor and was more honoured for his deeds than Elros, it is not surprising at all to me that Eärendil is more mentioned than Elros by the kings descended from him.

I don't think Tolkien ever said that the majority of Numenoreans were blond? Could you please provide the quote. This can be inferred from his comment that the majority of the Numenoreans were Marachian.

From Unfinished Tales, page 228:

There Almarian the Queen observed her [Erendis’] beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor; for Beregar [father of Erendis] came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros, and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin.¹⁰

10    Cf. The Silmarillion p. 148: ‘The Men of that House [i.e. of Bëor] were dark or brown of hair, with grey eyes.’ According to a genealogical table of the House of Bëor Erendis was descended from Bereth, who was the sister of Baragund and Belegund, and thus the aunt of Morwen mother of Túrin Turambar and of Rían the mother of Tuor.

Well you are wrong. It is mentioned several times how different kings specifically invoke how the heirs of Earendil should not have to die.

What you posted was:

Was choosing to place Earendil as the patriarch of the House choosing to live a more traditional Mannish lifestyle compared to the elvish nature of Luthien?

That was what my remark “I doubt it” referred to. I don’t see how anyone could mistake my meaning. I still doubt it. Your quotations do not refer to or even mention Eärendil’s wishing to choose a mortal life style. What then was I wrong about?

The King's men always evoke the name of Earendil. Elrond on the other hand traces his lineage through Luthien and Thingol. Legolas too chooses to trace Aragorn's heritage through Luthien.

From the chapter “The Council of Elrond”:

Eärendil was my sire, who was born in Gondolin before its fall; and my mother was Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of Lúthien of Doriath.

Elrond traces his lineage both to Eärendil and to Elwing (granddaughter of Lúthen). Your discussion suggests strongly that Elrond doesn’t mention Eärendi at all which is very much not true. And this remark is the only place where Elrond refers to his ancestry.

Legolas says:

But nobler is his [Aragorn’s] spirit than the understanding of Sauron; for is he not of the children of Lúthien? Never shall that line fail, though the years may lengthen beyond count.

Legolas appears to refer to an otherwise untold prophecy concerning the children of Lúthen and so quite naturally mentions Lúthien. Would you insist that Legolas is ignoring Eärendil because he does not awkwardly say, “… the children of Lúthien (through her granddaughter Elwing, Eärendil’s wife)?” Of course in such a mention Legolas does not mention any progenitor but Lúthien.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

That Eärendil had been made immortal and purportedly was visible in the sky bearing the last Silmaril as the planet Venus seems to me to adequately account for the mentions made of him by the kings. Eärendil was simply more famed and renowned to them than the others, for his voyages, for reaching Valinor and summoning the forces who finally defeated Morgoth, for becoming with his wife immortal, and for his slaying of the dragon Ancalagon, for which Eärendil’s mortal son Elros was made first King of Númenor.

Naturally one would imagine that in the latter days of Númenor it might have been more clearly brought out by poets that Eärendil, the father of the line of kings, would have chosen to remain mortal. Or it might not. The poets may have chosen to ignore that Eärendil would have become mortal save for the influence of his wife as they were beginning to interpret the old stores as an indication that immortality in the Undying Lands was the right of mortals.

You have changed your train of argument. You are now in agreement, that for the Kings, Earendil was heralded as their foremost ancestor. All you are trying to do now is answer the reason why.

Quite so. And since in the case of the Kings of Númenor it was Eärendil who was considered to be the cause of the foundation of Númenor and was more honoured for his deeds than Elros, it is not surprising at all to me that Eärendil is more mentioned than Elros by the kings descended from him.

The kings were of the House of Elros. I would not go as far as to say he was mentioned more, but he was regarded by the kings at least as their greatest ancestor and mentioned with the most honour. Mentioned more than Elros may not surprise you but what about Luthien?

From Unfinished Tales, page 228:

There Almarian the Queen observed her [Erendis’] beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor; for Beregar [father of Erendis] came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros, and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin.¹⁰

10    Cf. The Silmarillion p. 148: ‘The Men of that House [i.e. of Bëor] were dark or brown of hair, with grey eyes.’ According to a genealogical table of the House of Bëor Erendis was descended from Bereth, who was the sister of Baragund and Belegund, and thus the aunt of Morwen mother of Túrin Turambar and of Rían the mother of Tuor.

This does not really tell us anything about the rest of the Numenoreans being blond. The beauty seldom seen in Numenor could be taken as a reference, that she was just exceptionally beautiful and few other women could match her. Erendis is compared to Morwen, the most beautiful woman of the Edain in the first age.

I agree there is a second way to read it; this being that her dark beauty(brunette and grey eyes) was the beauty that was seldom seen, but I am not sure this is what Tolkien intended. There is never any outright statement that the majority of the Numenoreans were blond.

What you posted was:

Was choosing to place Earendil as the patriarch of the House choosing to live a more traditional Mannish lifestyle compared to the elvish nature of Luthien?

That was what my remark “I doubt it” referred to. I don’t see how anyone could mistake my meaning. I still doubt it. Your quotations do not refer to or even mention Eärendil’s wishing to choose a mortal life style. What then was I wrong about?

Okay, but perhaps you should have been clearer here.

I doubt it. When the Númenórean kings turned against their Elvish tradition they would like likely try not to think much of Lúthien and Eärendil as figures connected with the Elvish tradition. Those who followed the Lords of Andúnië would tend to remember their links with the Elves.

You did say the King's men would not want to think about Luthien and Earendil.

From the chapter “The Council of Elrond”:

Eärendil was my sire, who was born in Gondolin before its fall; and my mother was Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of Lúthien of Doriath.

Elrond traces his lineage both to Eärendil and to Elwing (granddaughter of Lúthen). Your discussion suggests strongly that Elrond doesn’t mention Eärendi at all which is very much not true. And this remark is the only place where Elrond refers to his ancestry.

Of course Elrond was proud of both lines of his ancestry and particularly Earendil. However, in the POME we are told he traced his ancestry through Luthien back to Thingol. Elrond personally considered himself a Sindar rather than a Noldor.

Legolas says:

But nobler is his [Aragorn’s] spirit than the understanding of Sauron; for is he not of the children of Lúthien? Never shall that line fail, though the years may lengthen beyond count.

Legolas appears to refer to an otherwise untold prophecy concerning the children of Lúthen and so quite naturally mentions Lúthien. Would you insist that Legolas is ignoring Eärendil because he does not awkwardly say, “… the children of Lúthien (through her granddaughter Elwing, Eärendil’s wife)?” Of course in such a mention Legolas does not mention any progenitor but Lúthien.

The prophecy you mention is spoken by Aragorn himself earlier in the story.

Notice that they are called 'Children of Luthien.' They could just as easily be called the children of Thingol, the children of Melian or the children of Dior. It makes little difference in context of the prophecy. Since if Luthien's line will never fail it means neither will the line of Melian, Thingol or Dior.

The fact that Luthien's name alone is mentioned shows that she is considered the primary matriarch of that line.

I don't think we can be in any doubt, that there are two figures held above all the other ancestors of the Numenoreans/Half-elven. The King's men definitely sway to Earendil and we are not told the reason why so I am just speculating. We are given the reason why Elrond does not want to be considered as part of the Noldor.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You have changed your train of argument. You are now in agreement, that for the Kings, Earendil was heralded as their foremost ancestor. All you are trying to do now is answer the reason why.

No I am not. I merely put forth the argument which I believe, and I think almost everyone believes, that Eärendil would be a natural person to name as the main ancestor. I still doubt that Eärendil’s original desire to be mortal is considered at all. I never stated I now accepted what seems to me to be an absurd conclusion.

If you consider my discussion to be reasonable, then I suppose you no longer make this claim. That appears to be your logic.

Mentioned more than Elros may not surprise you but what about Luthien?

And what about Melian and Idril? That they and Lúthien are not mentioned by the Kings of Númenor also does not surprise me at all. One would expect in a normally sexist society that only the male lineage would be commonly mentioned, as is common in medieval genealogies.

This does not really tell us anything about the rest of the Numenoreans being blond. The beauty seldom seen in Numenor could be taken as a reference, that she was just exceptionally beautiful and few other women could match her. Erendis is compared to Morwen, the most beautiful woman of the Edain in the first age.

I agree there is a second way to read it; this being that her dark beauty(brunette and grey eyes) was the beauty that was seldom seen, but I am not sure this is what Tolkien intended.

I am sure that is what Tolkien intended because I read Tolkien’s words as they are obviously meant. Tolkien begins by writing:

There Almarian the Queen observed her [Erendis’] beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor;

Tolkien does not write that Erendis was exceptionally beautiful (though that is probably to also be understood), but that that she possessed a “beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor”. Note the word kind which refers to a sort of beauty, not to beauty in general, for example to a buxom amzonian beauty, or a graceful slim beauty, or a red-haired, freckled beauty, or some other kind of beauty. You ignore Tolkien’s use of the word kind.

Then Tolkien follows this with the word for. He is now indicating the cause of this kind of beauty, not to Erendis’ general beauty. He writes:

… for Beregar [Erendis’ father] came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros,

So this kind of beauty comes to Erendis through her ancestry. Since Tolkien only mentions elsewhere that the people of Bëor were brown-haired and grey-eyed, presumably this kind of beauty seldom seen in Númenor would be that of the folk of Bëor and would refer to the brown hair and grey eyes common among the folk of Bëor, the folk of Bëor not being as common in Númenor as the mainly blond folk of Marach.

Tolkien then further indicates by plain statement the kind of beauty possessed by Erendis by writing:

… and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin.

Her Tolkien states, if it were not clear from what he had previously written, that Erendis is dark-haired and with grey-eyes; and that is the kind of beauty that she possessed which is seldom seen in Númenor. If Tolkien had intended Erendis to be compared to Morwen he could have simply said so. He did not say so.

There is never any outright statement that the majority of the Numenoreans were blond.

I did not say there was. There is only a strong implication. You asked, “I don’t think Tolkien ever said that the majority of Númenoreans were blond? Could you please provide the quote.” The only quote I have that you seem not to know about I provided. When put together with references to the fair-haired Hadorians and the brown-haired Bëorians in The Silmarillion, this quote indicates clearly that the majority of women in Númenor were of a different kind of beauty from Erendis, presumably different in hair-colour and eye-colour, and presumably blond like most Hadorians. Tolkien uses the word kind which you just ignore. Ignoring it does not make the word vanish.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:N%..._Needs_Editing for a note about this.

Notice that they are called 'Children of Luthien.' They could just as easily be called the children of Thingol, the children of Melian or the children of Dior. It makes little difference in context of the prophecy.

“Could” doesn’t change the fact that the reference twice refers to Lúthien and not to the others. I suspect Tolkien may have imagined this prophecy as given by Mandos to Lúthen, but that is only a guess. But if it is to be understood that a genuine prophecy was given, then it was given to Lúthien or about Lúthien, not to or about Melian, Thingol, or Dior. That the prophecy would be just as true if said of the others is correct. But it is not repeated about the others.

The fact that Luthien's name alone is mentioned shows that she is considered the primary matriarch of that line.

The only matriarch ever mentioned by Tolkien Gollum’s grandmother. Tolkien did not used the word matriarch otherwise and so far as I see no-one but yourself considers Lúthien to be “the primary matriarch”. That is only title you have invented, unused by Tolkien except for Gollum’s grandmother.

We are given the reason why Elrond does not want to be considered as part of the Noldor.

No we aren’t. Nowhere, so far as I recall, does Elrond ever stated to be either part of the Noldor or Sindarin. He is always entitled “Half-elven”, but presumably as a descendant of Idril he would consider himself a descendant of the Noldor. Where is it stated that Elrond does not want to be considered as a descendant of the Noldor?

Elrond does not happen to mention Idril in the one case where he mentions his descent. That this means he rejects his decent from Fingon, if that is what you mean, would only be your own invention and a dubious one. Frodo indicates puzzlement and amazement that Elrond claims to have participated in the Last Alliance. Apparently Frodo (rather surprisingly) does not know any of the details of Elrond’s past. Elrond answers that “Eärendil was my sire, who was horn in Gondolin before its fall.” Presumably Elrond mentions when Eärendil was born as an indication of his age, dating back long before the Last Alliance, and parhaps traces his mother Elwing only to Lúthien because of the prophecy. Why Elrond does not mention his paternal grandmother Idril or his great-grandfather Beren we are simply not told. Why Elrond does not mention Tuor at all we are not told.

Your explanations are only your own inventions.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

No I am not. I merely put forth the argument which I believe, and I think almost everyone believes, that Eärendil would be a natural person to name as the main ancestor. I still doubt that Eärendil’s original desire to be mortal is considered at all. I never stated I now accepted what seems to me to be an absurd conclusion.

If you consider my discussion to be reasonable, then I suppose you no longer make this claim. That appears to be your logic.

I do not follow you here. I was asserting that even when the Numenoreans distanced themselves from the elves, they still held Earendil in the highest of honour.

And what about Melian and Idril? That they and Lúthien are not mentioned by the Kings of Númenor also does not surprise me at all. One would expect in a normally sexist society that only the male lineage would be commonly mentioned, as is common in medieval genealogies.

Why was NUmenor a sexist society? Numenor is not a medieval society and is wrong to assume that Medieval societies only traced their line through the male lineage. King Stephen inherited the throne through his mother and many lands in Europe were inherited through the female line.

Luthien is held in higher esteem than the other two and IS singled out as the fore-mother of her descendants. They are called the Children of Luthien, which you seem to ignore.

I am sure that is what Tolkien intended because I read Tolkien’s words as they are obviously meant. Tolkien begins by writing:

There Almarian the Queen observed her [Erendis’] beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor;

Tolkien does not write that Erendis was exceptionally beautiful (though that is probably to also be understood), but that that she possessed a “beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor”. Note the word kind which refers to a sort of beauty, not to beauty in general, for example to a buxom amzonian beauty, or a graceful slim beauty, or a red-haired, freckled beauty, or some other kind of beauty. You ignore Tolkien’s use of the word kind.

Then Tolkien follows this with the word for. He is now indicating the cause of this kind of beauty, not to Erendis’ general beauty. He writes:

… for Beregar [Erendis’ father] came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros,

So this kind of beauty comes to Erendis through her ancestry. Since Tolkien only mentions elsewhere that the people of Bëor were brown-haired and grey-eyed, presumably this kind of beauty seldom seen in Númenor would be that of the folk of Bëor and would refer to the brown hair and grey eyes common among the folk of Bëor, the folk of Bëor not being as common in Númenor as the mainly blond folk of Marach.

Tolkien then further indicates by plain statement the kind of beauty possessed by Erendis by writing:

… and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin.

Her Tolkien states, if it were not clear from what he had previously written, that Erendis is dark-haired and with grey-eyes; and that is the kind of beauty that she possessed which is seldom seen in Númenor. If Tolkien had intended Erendis to be compared to Morwen he could have simply said so. He did not say so.

Except Tolkien does write that Erendis was a great beauty even for that time. Tracing her descent to the House of Beor would draw comparisons Morwen and Turin. Morwen the fairest woman and Turin the fairest man.

By tracing her ancestry and the words he used to describe, he immediately draws the comparison. If I am not mistaken the text actually refers to Morwen too.

As I thought, there is footnote and the her close relation to Morwen and Turin is noted.

I did not say there was. There is only a strong implication. You asked, “I don’t think Tolkien ever said that the majority of Númenoreans were blond? Could you please provide the quote.” The only quote I have that you seem not to know about I provided. When put together with references to the fair-haired Hadorians and the brown-haired Bëorians in The Silmarillion, this quote indicates clearly that the majority of women in Númenor were of a different kind of beauty from Erendis, presumably different in hair-colour and eye-colour, and presumably blond like most Hadorians. Tolkien uses the word kind which you just ignore. Ignoring it does not make the word vanish.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:N%..._Needs_Editing for a note about this.

So you don't have any other quote except one interpretation of the text, which when looked at the full context could mean something else entirely. Especially since Aldarion himself is noted for being blond, which implies his father and perhaps the older kings of Numenor were not.

“Could” doesn’t change the fact that the reference twice refers to Lúthien and not to the others. I suspect Tolkien may have imagined this prophecy as given by Mandos to Lúthen, but that is only a guess. But if it is to be understood that a genuine prophecy was given, then it was given to Lúthien or about Lúthien, not to or about Melian, Thingol, or Dior. That the prophecy would be just as true if said of the others is correct. But it is not repeated about the others.

Even if the prophecy was given about Luthien, this still does not change it's application to Thingol.

The only matriarch ever mentioned by Tolkien Gollum’s grandmother. Tolkien did not used the word matriarch otherwise and so far as I see no-one but yourself considers Lúthien to be “the primary matriarch”. That is only title you have invented, unused by Tolkien except for Gollum’s grandmother.

Really what about Haleth. At present I don't have my books, but will provide the quotes.

No we aren’t. Nowhere, so far as I recall, does Elrond ever stated to be either part of the Noldor or Sindarin. He is always entitled “Half-elven”, but presumably as a descendant of Idril he would consider himself a descendant of the Noldor. Where is it stated that Elrond does not want to be considered as a descendant of the Noldor?

I never said Elrond did not recognise his Noldor ancestry, but he preferred to his Teleri ancestry and traced his lineage to Thingol rather than Turgon.

Elrond does not happen to mention Idril in the one case where he mentions his descent. That this means he rejects his decent from Fingon, if that is what you mean, would only be your own invention and a dubious one. Frodo indicates puzzlement and amazement that Elrond claims to have participated in the Last Alliance. Apparently Frodo (rather surprisingly) does not know any of the details of Elrond’s past. Elrond answers that “Eärendil was my sire, who was horn in Gondolin before its fall.” Presumably Elrond mentions when Eärendil was born as an indication of his age, dating back long before the Last Alliance, and parhaps traces his mother Elwing only to Lúthien because of the prophecy. Why Elrond does not mention his paternal grandmother Idril or his great-grandfather Beren we are simply not told. Why Elrond does not mention Tuor at all we are not told.

Your explanations are only your own inventions.

No I have several quotes and have provided them elsewhere and will do so again here.

Elrond preferred to trace his ancestry through Thingol.

It is to be presumed that with the reemergence of the lineal priest kings (of whom Lúthien the Blessed Elf-maiden was a foremother) the worship of God would be renewed

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwë and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth. Since Lúthien was the noblest, and the most fair and beautiful, of all the Children of Eru remembered in ancient story, the descendants of that union were called 'the children of Lúthien'. The world has grown old in long years since then, but it may be that their line has not yet ended. -The People of Middle Earth

Here he outright tells us the reason why Luthien is considered to be head of the line over even Finwe and Elwe. Luthien is the most noble and that is why she is held first.

Earendil holds a similar position since he is the prophecised saviour. This is precisely why these two are the most beloved and held in the highest regard. The Numenoreans kings choosing Earendil over Luthien is therefore surprising

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I do not follow you here. I was asserting that even when the Numenoreans distanced themselves from the elves, they still held Earendil in the highest of honour.

Assert away at thing I don’t disagree with. But if you make up, as you did, things that involve understanding my own mind being changed, then expect the same nonsense back,

Why was NUmenor a sexist society? Numenor is not a medieval society and is wrong to assume that Medieval societies only traced their line through the male lineage. King Stephen inherited the throne through his mother and many lands in Europe were inherited through the female line.

All societies in Tolkien’s Middle-earth of which Tolkien tells us are sexist societies, with male genealogies of the royal houses. Númenor is probably the least so, but even there according to the New Law of Succession, if princesses refused to accept the throne, then the throne would be bestowed on the next male heir.

As to medieval European lands, do you deny that female succession in areas where straightforward succession by lineage dominated was very rare? Do you deny that male succession was the norm? I think not.

Luthien is held in higher esteem than the other two and IS singled out as the fore-mother of her descendants.

Never denied it. Never. Though I can’t help pointing out that most married women are foremothers of their descendants. That alone is not a great achievement

They are called the Children of Luthien, which you seem to ignore.

I have had not reason to mention “the Children of Lúthien” in this post. But either did you, before the last post. So blame yourself also if there is any blame. What else am I to be falsely blamed for not mentioning and so seeming to ignore?

Your accusation that I was purposely avoiding “the Children of Lúthien” was a false accusation. Please apologize. I do respect in Tolkien’s work the high value he attributes to “the Children of Lúthien”.

Except Tolkien does write that Erendis was a great beauty even for that time. Tracing her descent to the House of Beor would draw comparisons Morwen and Turin. Morwen the fairest woman and Turin the fairest man.

I notice you carefully don’t point out where my parsing of Tolkien’s sentence was wrong or that Tolkien uses the phrase “kind of beauty”. I still see my parsing as correct, confirmed by your inability to to even being to demonstrate what is wrong with it.

By tracing her ancestry and the words he used to describe, he immediately draws the comparison.

You draw the comparison, not Tolkien’s words. I don’t find your skimming over my parsing as an acceptable comment, unless you are intending to indicate that you can’t contradict my comments. What is wrong with my comments? Of course I see that you can’t find anything wrong with them and are stuck on the wrong side of an argument. So just admit you are wrong.

If I am not mistaken the text actually refers to Morwen too.

As I thought, there is footnote and the her close relation to Morwen and Turin is noted.

The footnote is an addition by Christopher Tolkien and I don’t see any connection made by Christopher Tolkien between Morwen and the “kind of beauty” that his father mentions. Christopher Tolkien does not even mention in the note that Morwen was famed for beauty. Christopher Tolkien does mention the hair and eyes of the House of Bëor. It is implied strongly by Tolkien that this hair and eye-colour was common to many of the House of Bëor. Christopher Tolkien quite naturally includes the information on Morwen from a previously unprinted table by his father.

Christopher Tolkien is not writing about what his father meant by “a kind of beauty” so far as I can see.

So you don't have any other quote except one interpretation of the text, which when looked at the full context could mean something else entirely.

No it can’t, unless you choose to ignore what Tolkien wrote, especially the words “a kind of beauty”.

Especially since Aldarion himself is noted for being blond, which implies his father and perhaps the older kings of Numenor were not.

I see no implication of any kind in this argument from silence. You ought to know better than to claim that an argument from silence can prove anything.

Do you now believe that most Númenórians weren’t blond? That seems to me to be very wrong, even from what is written in The Silmarillion, especially in light of your first post.

Even if the prophecy was given about Luthien, this still does not change it's application to Thingol.

I never claimed it did. But in fact this prophecy is given of Lúthien. But erhaps what the books say is what matters and I will keep to that. I can equally put back on you that even if the prophecy was given about Lúthien it still does not change such application as it has to the descendants of Eärendil and Elwing.

Really what about Haleth. At present I don't have my books, but will provide the quotes.

Nothing about Haleth. I never mentioned her and neither did you.

I never said Elrond did not recognise his Noldor ancestry, but he preferred to his Teleri ancestry and traced his lineage to Thingol rather than Turgon.

Prove this. The facts are that in a single statement Elrond didn’t happen to mention Turgon, but only Eärendil among his ancestors. But one statement is not enough to prove anything, especially what you want to prove. There is not sufficient data.

Hence, I doubt.

Elrond preferred to trace his ancestry through Thingol.

It is to be presumed that with the reemergence of the lineal priest kings (of whom Lúthien the Blessed Elf-maiden was a foremother) the worship of God would be renewed

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwë and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth. Since Lúthien was the noblest, and the most fair and beautiful, of all the Children of Eru remembered in ancient story, the descendants of that union were called 'the children of Lúthien'. The world has grown old in long years since then, but it may be that their line has not yet ended. -The People of Middle Earth

Here he outright tells us the reason why Luthien is considered to be head of the line over even Finwe and Elwe. Luthien is the most noble and that is why she is held first.

Neither of these two sentences tells that Elrond preferred to trace his ancestry through Thingol. Neither sentence even mentions Elrond. You are unaccountably inventing the information that “Elrond preferred to trace his ancestry through Thingol.” That is a false claim without more evidence, which you seemingly do not have.

Hence, I doubt. Because your claim does not stand up.

Neither sentence states that Lúthien is “held first” genealogically or “head of the line″. There are two separate lines and Lúthien is not related to the kin of Turgon except through a descendant, Elwing. Lúthien is the most renowned of the Elves which I knew well from these and other passages previously. What you have provided is what I already know plus some incorrect statements by yourself that have no value.

Hence, I doubt. Because your claim does not stand up.

How do you expect to maintain your claim on obviously false statements?

Further oddities in these sentences which merely note in passing: The second sentence mentions Ingwë and Finwë who are only connected to the Half-elven through Eärendil grandson of Turgon (descended from Finwë) by Elenwë of the Vanyar who I suppose might be some kindred of Ingwë, though that is dubious. Olwë’s relation to the Half-elven is also claimed but no relationship is given, except through Thingol. Perhaps that is what Tolkien meant in this second case.

The Numenoreans kings choosing Earendil over Luthien is therefore surprising

It doesn’t surprise me at all. Why should this surprise me? The patriarchal lineage of the line of Núnenor runs directly up to Elros, son of Eärendil, son of Tuor. There is nothing surprising in the Kings of Númenor honouring the father and grandfather of their line of kings. Nothing at all. Especially considering Eärendil’s fame.

It only surprises you because you imagine that the Kings of Númenor spectacularly don’t honour Lúthien. But you can imagine anything you want though you ought not to make claims that you spectacularly can’t support.

Tolkien writes very little about the rites and entertainments of Númenor and so anyone can produce anything they want in fan fiction. I see you are pushing more than I know. Naturally I doubt. And arguments that don’t support you don’t help your case.

Yes Lúthien was very famed for helping to steal the Silmaril from Morgoth and rescuing her husband and herself from death. I don’t deny any of this and I never have. I do deny that one statement from Elrond and two from Kings of Númenor are sufficient to draw any firm conclusions. So I continue to doubt.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Assert away at thing I don’t disagree with. But if you make up, as you did, things that involve understanding my own mind being changed, then expect the same nonsense back,

I really have no idea what you are talking about and quite frankly I don't care. In future perhaps you should show a bit less hubris in your replies. I am only bothered to reply to this post so others can see the information.

All societies in Tolkien’s Middle-earth of which Tolkien tells us are sexist societies, with male genealogies of the royal houses. Númenor is probably the least so, but even there according to the New Law of Succession, if princesses refused to accept the throne, then the throne would be bestowed on the next male heir.

Most societies in Middle Earth existed in times of war and the leader needed military experience as well. It is normal that males would be chosen for the role and nothing sexist about it.

As to medieval European lands, do you deny that female succession in areas where straightforward succession by lineage dominated was very rare? Do you deny that male succession was the norm? I think not.

How does male succession in a time of war make you sexist? It was a brutal time and even when males were poor heirs were poor military, they quickly lost their throne. Though even looking at history shows us that family lines were traced through the most prominent person.

Nobody traces Prince Charles family line through Prince Philip. Even in the case of Prince Albert, who was a brilliant man, his children and descendants are only ever traced to his wife: Queen Victoria.

Never denied it. Never. Though I can’t help pointing out that most married women are foremothers of their descendants. That alone is not a great achievement

Most married women are not called blessed foremother and they certainly are not singled out of all other ancestresses.

I have had not reason to mention “the Children of Lúthien” in this post. But either did you, before the last post. So blame yourself also if there is any blame. What else am I to be falsely blamed for not mentioning and so seeming to ignore?

Your accusation that I was purposely avoiding “the Children of Lúthien” was a false accusation. Please apologize. I do respect in Tolkien’s work the high value he attributes to “the Children of Lúthien”.

You should be less arrogant, especially when you so often wrong. Though you have failed to address the issue at hand.

I notice you carefully don’t point out where my parsing of Tolkien’s sentence was wrong or that Tolkien uses the phrase “kind of beauty”. I still see my parsing as correct, confirmed by your inability to to even being to demonstrate what is wrong with it.

I pointed out how Christopher Tolkien interpreted the text. The man, who knew his father and knows the Legendarium better than anyone else. It is thanks to him in more ways that one we even have these books.

That apart the Beorians were a minority, but not rare in Numenor. An area roughly a sixth of the size Numenor was populated by them. This is even before we take into account the Marachians with dark hair or intermarriage between the groups. The people of Gondor seem to in the most part have grey eyes. In his later writings Tolkien suggest that the Beorians were usually brown. So the dark hair would not be something seldom seen in Numenor. 90% of Britain is white, but would not describe an ethnic person as something, which was seldom seen.

You draw the comparison, not Tolkien’s words. I don’t find your skimming over my parsing as an acceptable comment, unless you are intending to indicate that you can’t contradict my comments. What is wrong with my comments? Of course I see that you can’t find anything wrong with them and are stuck on the wrong side of an argument. So just admit you are wrong.


The footnote is an addition by Christopher Tolkien and I don’t see any connection made by Christopher Tolkien between Morwen and the “kind of beauty” that his father mentions. Christopher Tolkien does not even mention in the note that Morwen was famed for beauty. Christopher Tolkien does mention the hair and eyes of the House of Bëor. It is implied strongly by Tolkien that this hair and eye-colour was common to many of the House of Bëor. Christopher Tolkien quite naturally includes the information on Morwen from a previously unprinted table by his father.

Christopher Tolkien is not writing about what his father meant by “a kind of beauty” so far as I can see.

Then perhaps you should read further into the text. Where Erendis' beauty is once again brought up and there is a direct comparison to Morwen again. At this juncture Christopher Tolkien once more points to his original footnote where he traces her ancestry.

Considering Erendis was said to be more beautify than the Elves of Tol Eressea by some, then we begin to see why her beauty was seldom seen.

'and many of the Eldar high and fair were seated among men at the tables. But the people of Andunie, looking upon the blissful company. said that none were more fair than Erendis, and they said that her eyes were as bright as were the eyes of Morwen Eledhwen of old,'-Unfinished Tales

No it can’t, unless you choose to ignore what Tolkien wrote, especially the words “a kind of beauty”.

Yes Christopher Tolkien and the Professor later expand on what is meant. Her beauty was comparable to that of the High elves.

I see no implication of any kind in this argument from silence. You ought to know better than to claim that an argument from silence can prove anything.

Do you now believe that most Númenórians weren’t blond? That seems to me to be very wrong, even from what is written in The Silmarillion, especially in light of your first post.

You ought to read the story before commenting. The full quote notes Aldarion had hair similar to his mother. Tolkien uses similar language about Turin and it indicates the father had a different hair colour.

'Aladarion...vigorous in mind and body, golden haired as his mother'

I do believe the majority of Numenoreans were blond, but not the majority of the nobility, at least not at in the earlier years. Elros was most likely dark haired like Elrond.

I never claimed it did. But in fact this prophecy is given of Lúthien. But erhaps what the books say is what matters and I will keep to that. I can equally put back on you that even if the prophecy was given about Lúthien it still does not change such application as it has to the descendants of Eärendil and Elwing.

Actually since Dior had two other sons it actually does change the application to Earendil and Elwing, since Luthien's line would not necessarily end with the death of Elwing.

Nothing about Haleth. I never mentioned her and neither did you.

It seems sometimes you forget what you wrote. You previously said that Tolkien had not written about any matriarchs except Smeagol's grandmother and I reminded you about Haleth.

A clear example of a woman being regarded as head of the family line. In Haleth's case it is even more remarkable since she was not actually a direct ancestress of the ruling family.

Prove this. The acts are that in a single statement Elrond didn’t happen to mention Turgon, but only Eärendil among his ancestors. But one statement is not enough to prove anything, especially what you want to prove. There is not sufficient data.

Hence, I doubt.

To accuse someone of dishonesty is not very polite thing to do, even more so when I had said I did not have my books with me.

'it was Elros who voyaged over sea to Numenor following the star of Earendil; whereas Elrond remained among the Elves and carried on the lineage of King Elwe.
footnote reads
And also that of Turgon, though he preferred that of Elwe.-The Peoples of Middle Earth

Neither sentence states that Lúthien is “held first” genealogically or “head of the line″. There are two separate lines and Lúthien is not related to the kin of Turgon except through a descendant, Elwing. Lúthien is the most renowned of the Elves which I knew well from these and other passages previously. What you have provided is what I already know plus some incorrect statements by yourself that have no value.

Hence, I doubt. Because your claim does not stand up.

How do you expect to maintain your claim on obviously false statements?

The statement could not be more clear. Since she Luthien was regarded as the noblest, she is named first. What more could you wish for?

Further oddities in these sentences which merely note in passing: The second sentence mentions Ingwë and Finwë who are only connected to the Half-elven through Eärendil grandson of Turgon (descended from Finwë) by Elenwë of the Vanyar who I suppose might be some kindred of Ingwë, though that is dubious. Olwë’s relation to the Half-elven is also claimed but no relationship is given, except through Thingol. Perhaps that is what Tolkien meant in this second case.

I suggest you look at the quote again. It is that it is talking about Aragorn and Arwen's descendants, who would be be descendants of Olwe, through Galadriel.

As for the case of Ingwe, Christopher Tolkien admits that it was odd that his father made such a statement and wonders what he meant. The descendants of Aragorn and Arwen would be connected to Finwe by through Finarfin and Fingolfin. Further more they would be related, but not directly descended from Ingwe since Indis was close kin of Ingwe (either sister or niece.)

It doesn’t surprise me at all. Why should this surprise me? The patriarchal lineage of the line of Núnenor runs directly up to Elros, son of Eärendil, son of Tuor. There is nothing surprising in the Kings of Númenor honouring the father and grandfather of their line of kings. Nothing at all. Especially considering Eärendil’s fame.

Then why not Tuor instead of Earendil? Or even Huor? Both of them accomplished great deeds as well. Why does Elrond not follow suit?

It only surprises you because you imagine that the Kings of Númenor spectacularly don’t honour Lúthien. But you can imagine anything you want though you ought not to make claims that you spectacularly can’t support.

I am sure the kings of Numenor DID greatly honour Luthien, but they placed Earendil first and foremost, which is surprising since no one else of her line placed her second. Elrond himself does not.

Tolkien writes very little about the rites and entertainments of Númenor and so anyone can produce anything they want in fan fiction. I see you are pushing more than I know. Naturally I doubt. And arguments that don’t support you don’t help your case.

Actually Tolkien wrote a lot more than you think about Numenor, but never rewrote them. In some of his earlier writings such as the Fall of Numenor, it really stands out how the Numenorean kings held Earendil in the highest respect.

Yes Lúthien was very famed for helping to steal the Silmaril from Morgoth and rescuing her husband and herself from death. I don’t deny any of this and I never have. I do deny that one statement from Elrond and two from Kings of Númenor are sufficient to draw any firm conclusions. So I continue to doubt.

I provided you with three different statements from three different kings in addition with statements from the people about the role of Earendil. I could provide more from old material too.

As for the case of Elrond I have once again provided more than one quote. In the future if you were less arrogant and accepted that no one here knows everything about Tolkien or is perfect you might learn a lot more from others.

[Gondolin23]

Why don't they go further back in time? It seems to me that the more ancient your ancestry is, the more impressive it is. No one seems to claim Finwe as their forefather, or Olwe or Ingwe. One could say that's because they all lived in Valinor, but surely the Eldar knew who they were, and for mortal men, Luthien was as much a part of the distant past as Finwe. I suppose there's no Lay of Finwe to remember him by, however.

But if you stick to people who lived in Middle-earth, I wonder why no one claims descent from Fingolfin, who was the brave and noble High King of the Noldor while he lived, and who died in heroic personal combat with Morgoth, which the Elves remember but don't sing about, because their sorrow is too deep. That means it left a lasting impression on them, so men would be as likely to learn his story from Elves as Luthien's and Earendil's.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with claiming descent from Earendil or Luthien, but I wonder why others aren't included.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Gondolin23

Why don't they go further back in time? It seems to me that the more ancient your ancestry is, the more impressive it is. No one seems to claim Finwe as their forefather, or Olwe or Ingwe. One could say that's because they all lived in Valinor, but surely the Eldar knew who they were, and for mortal men, Luthien was as much a part of the distant past as Finwe. I suppose there's no Lay of Finwe to remember him by, however.

But if you stick to people who lived in Middle-earth, I wonder why no one claims descent from Fingolfin, who was the brave and noble High King of the Noldor while he lived, and who died in heroic personal combat with Morgoth, which the Elves remember but don't sing about, because their sorrow is too deep. That means it left a lasting impression on them, so men would be as likely to learn his story from Elves as Luthien's and Earendil's.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with claiming descent from Earendil or Luthien, but I wonder why others aren't included.

I think it's because Luthien and Earendil are held as the greatest of their ancestors. Luthien is the most beautiful, the most noble, the most powerful and achieved the greatest deed.

Earendil was a great power in his own right and was the saviour of Elves and Men.

These two had the greatest influence on Middle Earth, were (the?) two of the powerful and the most loved.

[Galadriel]

Eärendil, for the simple reason that this is largely a patriarchal society we're talking about.

If the choice was between Eärendil and Beren, however, it may be a bit more complicated. I suppose, though, that Eärendil still seems to hold more favour among his descendants than does Beren. I kind of see Beren as representing bravery and chivalry, and Eärendil as representing a kind of ethereal monarchy with astounding, almost god-like strength. And in Tolkien's ME, the ones with an air of kingliness/queenliness tend to be remembered more than those who are brave/courageous. E.g. Frodo being almost forgotten despite carrying the fate of ME in his little hands. Not saying that Beren isn't remembered, because we all know he is, but I'd say Eärendil still wins this one.

And I'm probably talking nonsense because I haven't read the books in forever, so correct me if I went horribly wrong. :P

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Most societies in Middle Earth existed in times of war and the leader needed military experience as well. It is normal that males would be chosen for the role and nothing sexist about it.

How does male succession in a time of war make you sexist? It was a brutal time and even when males were poor heirs were poor military, they quickly lost their throne. Though even looking at history shows us that family lines were traced through the most prominent person.

What about Finwë, Ingwë, and Olwë? They lived in paradise, and they were still the ruling monarchs (and don't tell me it's because they were leaders in ME. Anyone can be a leader, male or female). Frankly, choosing an heir in Tolkien's world is less a matter of having military prowess than the fact that they are male. Also, Hobbits were not the military sort, and yet even their society was mostly patriarchal. The only matriarch mentioned is Gollum's grandmother. Furthermore, many queens are not even named, let alone identified, when looking at genealogies. How is that not sexist? You're denying that human beings/elves existed because of their gender. You can say whatever you like about there being times of war, but that does not negate the sexism present on the whole.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Eärendil, for the simple reason that this is largely a patriarchal society we're talking about.

If the choice was between Eärendil and Beren, however, it may be a bit more complicated. I suppose, though, that Eärendil still seems to hold more favour among his descendants than does Beren. I kind of see Beren as representing bravery and chivalry, and Eärendil as representing a kind of ethereal monarchy with astounding, almost god-like strength. And in Tolkien's ME, the ones with an air of kingliness/queenliness tend to be remembered more than those who are brave/courageous. E.g. Frodo being almost forgotten despite carrying the fate of ME in his little hands. Not saying that Beren isn't remembered, because we all know he is, but I'd say Eärendil still wins this one.

And I'm probably talking nonsense because I haven't read the books in forever, so correct me if I went horribly wrong. :P

I have quoted a lot of information already. Luthien was considered the head of the line by virtually ALL of her descendants. She was named first and her descendants were named after her. Her only competition in this matter is Earendil and it was because he was the saviour of Middle Earth and second in nobility to Luthien.

Finwe, Elwe, Ingwe and Olwe gained their royal status, because they were brave enough to make the journey to Valinor. The Noldor did seem to only pass the High Kingship through the male line and to males, but that is not true with the Sindar. Dior is Thingol's heir/

As for other matriarchs there is Haleth, the head of her family.

Lastly the reason queens are not mentioned, because Tolkien is focusing on the ruling monarch.

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Finwe, Elwe, Ingwe and Olwe gained their royal status, because they were brave enough to make the journey to Valinor. The Noldor did seem to only pass the High Kingship through the male line and to males, but that is not true with the Sindar. Dior is Thingol's heir/

So did all the Elves, actually, save the Teleri. They weren't the only ones brave enough to make the journey. Dior is a male, by the way, so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say he's Thingol's heir. You're just proving my point.

As for other matriarchs there is Haleth, the head of her family.

If I remember correctly, that is only because the patriarch died, not because she was first choice.

Lastly the reason queens are not mentioned, because Tolkien is focusing on the ruling monarch.

That's no excuse. Unless the queens had absolutely no say in ruling the kingdom, that is, and even then it's a really dubious reason. I don't know if there's any country in which queens are not mentioned for generations on end. Even in a strictly patriarchal dynasty, such as that of the Mughals, in which emperors had several wives who most certainly were not rulers or rarely even unofficial advisers, they are all mentioned. You seem to be defending the sexist/misogynistic procedure of omitting female names entirely, just because they weren't the 'ruling monarchs'. They provided the heirs, at the very least, which I'm pretty sure these monarchs couldn't do unless they were amoebas or something. I'm sorry, but Tolkien's ME is quite sexist, and there's little you can say to contradict that.

[cellurdur]

[QUOTE=Galadriel;679095]

So did all the Elves, actually, save the Teleri. They weren't the only ones brave enough to make the journey. Dior is a male, by the way, so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say he's Thingol's heir. You're just proving my point.

No they were the initial ambassadors brave enough to make the journey first and then give a report back to the other elves. This is why they became the kings and leaders of their people.

Yes Dior is a male, but he was Luthien's son. The Sindar accepted Dior as their king, through a maternal line. If Luthien had chosen too, they would have had her as their queen.

If I remember correctly, that is only because the patriarch died, not because she was first choice.

It does not matter, she led the people instead of her brother's sons. The royal family was called the House of Haleth after her and she was not actually a direct ancestress of that line.

That's no excuse. Unless the queens had absolutely no say in ruling the kingdom, that is, and even then it's a really dubious reason. I don't know if there's any country in which queens are not mentioned for generations on end. Even in a strictly patriarchal dynasty, such as that of the Mughals, in which emperors had several wives who most certainly were not rulers or rarely even unofficial advisers, they are all mentioned. You seem to be defending the sexist/misogynistic procedure of omitting female names entirely, just because they weren't the 'ruling monarchs'. They provided the heirs, at the very least, which I'm pretty sure these monarchs couldn't do unless they were amoebas or something. I'm sorry, but Tolkien's ME is quite sexist, and there's little you can say to contradict that.

Technically I am not sure the Queen would legally have much of a say as Queen consort. I am not aware of anything to suggest they would. That is not to say they would not be appointed as a member of the Council anyway, but the role of Queen Consort does not necessarily grant political power with Gondor or Numenor.

I am saying that it is common to trace royal lines through only the Reigning Monarch. I have previously given the example of Prince Charles. Nobody traces his line through Prince Philip. I also used the example of Queen Victoria. She is called the mother of European royal families, but Prince Albert is not called the father.

We will have to disagree on this. There are too many cultures with different practices and customs to call Tolkien's ME sexist. Especially when we look at Numenor in times of peace having ruling Queens.

Slightly off topic, but in cultures where the Monarch has more than one wife, it is far more important to note the mother, because more often than not, the loyalties of the Monarch would depend on his mother's family.