How did Frodo get a second sword? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Son of Fire · 04-03-2003, 09:56 AM

Okay, we all know that any blade that touches the witch king will perish, and we first learn this when Frodo attempts to protect himself by striking him. Then, a few pages later, he raises his sword again, then falls on it and breaks it. Maybe I'm overlooking something, but this sword appears to have appeared from nowhere.

One Axe to Rule them All · 04-03-2003, 10:49 AM

ouch, that's a stumper, i need to do some research....

Mornie Alantie · 04-03-2003, 11:00 AM

Well I see your point. But probably the hobbit was so recourceful that he brought an extra tucked in his pants! You know, he does have a couple of One Rings is his coat pocket.

Carorëiel · 04-03-2003, 11:48 AM

I'm a bit confused--are you talking about the last paragraph of "A Knife in the Dark?"
What's confusing you regarding the sword? He only drops it once and doesn't pick it up again:

"At that moment Frodo threw himself forward on the ground, and he heard himself crying aloud: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! At the same time he struck at the feet of his enemy. A shrill cry rang out in the night; and he felt a pain like a dart of poisoned ice pierce his left shoulder. Even as he swooned he caught, as through a swirling mist, a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand. With a last effort, dropping his sword, Frodo slipped the Ring from his finger and closed his right hand tight upon it."

Are you referring to something in the next chapter?

Raefindel · 04-03-2003, 11:57 AM

As I recall (look it up to be sure) Frodo's sword didn't actually strike the witch king, it only tore the corner form his cloak (or robe).

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 04-03-2003, 01:05 PM

Quote:

'Look!' he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.

From Flight to the Ford

Obviously Frodo only managed to slash the cloak, which was then abandoned in the confusion. Since Tolkien only describes Frodo striking at the feet of his enemy, and since Strider specifically tells everyone that he missed his mark, I see no discrepancy here at all.

Arwen Evenstar the Fair · 04-03-2003, 04:19 PM

yea I agree, had Frodo stuck him then he would have been in way worse shape. For instance in ROTK when Merry stabs the Nazgul king, he was seriously damaged on the inside and on the outside, he froze and passed out. Frodo didn't even lose conciousness.

**lindil** · 04-04-2003, 09:33 AM

It is the Morgul Knife which vanishes in FotR, in RotK it is Merry's barrow-blade.
A conflation of the 2 could be the source of confusion.

I imagine that at some point when Sting had become Sam's, Sam gave his Barrow sword to Merry. But his is nowhere stated.

Son of Fire · 04-04-2003, 03:07 PM

maybe it was just my interpretation, when Aragorn said that no blade could stay around after cutting the witch king, i guess i read it as that it had disappeared. This confused me as I am thoroughly convinced that Tolkien would have noticed a mistake like that. HERE'S TO MULTIPLE POINTS OF VIEW.

Bruce MacCulloch · 04-04-2003, 03:40 PM

Here's to paying attention when we read!

Burzdol · 04-05-2003, 01:10 PM

If Frodo's sword didn't hit him directly, than it still would perish, right?

~Burzdol~

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 04-05-2003, 02:16 PM

I refer you to the quotation from Flight to the Ford above. Only a blade that pierces the Witch King (i.e. actually enters whatever passes for his flesh) will perish, although how it comes to pierce him wouldn't matter. Cutting his cloak is only sartorially, not physically, damaging.

Tolkien would indeed have noticed so obvious a discrepancy as someone's sword being destroyed and then turning up again in the very next chapter. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think such a compulsive reviser capable of so elementary an error.

[ April 05, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

**lindil** · 04-05-2003, 02:39 PM

I must say, trying to recall it from memory threw me for a loop, I was thinking for a moment that Frodo's sword was indeed destroyed at Weathertop. I mentioned earlier, that the inital confusion of the question was probaly caused by the conflating of melting swords/knives ad I imagine this simple mistake probably led to the confusion.

Merry's melts at Pellenor Feiolds and the witch Kings at Amon Sul.

And hey, JRRT though a perfectionist, totally botched the chronology of the comparitive journeys from Trollfells to Rivendell between the Hobbit and FotR.

I forget the exact discrepancy but I thinkit is 6 days or something according to the 'Atlas'. So he did make a few mistakes! [well ok at least 1 [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ]

Alatáriël Lossëhelin · 04-07-2003, 07:14 PM

Quote:

I imagine that at some point when Sting had become Sam's, Sam gave his Barrow sword to Merry. But his is nowhere stated.

Sam left his Barrow sword with Frodo's body when he thinks Frodo is dead. It was Sam's sword that the Mouth of Sauron brought to the Black Gate, along with Frodo's cloak & mithril vest. Merry had his own Barrow sword that he used to stab the Witch King. Frodo lost his Barrow sword at the Ford of Bruinen.

Quote:

Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand.

Burzdol · 04-07-2003, 07:31 PM

It was Sting, not Sam's sword really. I just read that passage yesterday.

~Burzdol~

**lindil** · 04-08-2003, 07:02 AM

'Merry had his own Barrow sword that he used to stab the Witch King.'

Yes but this destroyed it.

Thus my hypothesis, that as Sam would have an extra [after Frodo gives him Sting] Sam would give his to Merry's whose was destroyed by the stabbing of the Witch-King [ ' ...the sword broke, splintering into many shards...']

Lalaith · 04-08-2003, 08:01 AM

I can't resist at this point quoting the passage about the destruction of Merry's sword, as it is, for some reason, one of my favorite passages in LotR.

Quote:

So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of the Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

Stronkk · 11-19-2012, 03:51 PM

Like other contributors I think it all comes down to how you read the following passage, which appears shortly after the Attack on Frodo & party at Weathertop.
(It's the passage others have quoted, and I think I can explain specifically why there can be multiple interpretations)

"'Look!' He cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden in the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'the only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King..."

Reading this passage one way, you understand Strider to mean that Frodo must have struck the cloak but missed the Black Rider. In this reading, Strider's is arguing that if Frodo had struck the rider his (Frodo's) sword would have been damaged - and so by inference, Frodo's sword is fine. I think now that this is the correct reading.

Formerly, I read this passage differently, as if Strider was meaning "look; you struck your enemy. But you won't have hurt him [i happen to know from lore I'm not going to quotes references for right now]. All you will have achieved is to ruin your sword." This is the meaning you get if you think that 'it' in 'for it is unharmed,' refers to the Black Rider, not the sword.

Having (mis)understood that Frodo's barrow sword 'perished' in his fight, I was then wondering what sword he had to break at the Ford a bit later. Also why Frodo doesn't get Ill the way Merry does later when he (Merry) does wound the Nazgul. Presumably Frodo's barrow blade would have been capable of wounding a Black Rider, just as Merry's does later - Frodo simply missed.

By the way, I have sometimes wondered why the Balck Riders don't press their attack on Weathertop - it proves to be their best chance to get the ring before Frodo reaches Rivendell. I found:

Tolkien quote - They felt they'd had a narrow escape from one of te few weapons that could harm them http://newboards.theonering.net/foru...=274144#274144

A good discussion of this chapter, especially ideas about the limitations of the Black Riders' powers http://newboards.theonering.net/foru...guest=20181802

cellurdur · 12-19-2012, 04:50 PM

I think it has been answered before, but Frodo's sword never touched the Witch King. If it had then the Witch King would have died there and then.

There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20:4 the
Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)-letter 210

So we can imagine that Frodo's blade would have done the same and the Witch King would have fallen down if his flesh had been pierced. Without even mentioning how Frodo's stabbing arm would have become numb.

Juicy-Sweet · 12-19-2012, 11:11 PM

Merry's sword took a little while to perish - Merry cuts the WK's thighs, WK fall, Merry drops the sword. Eowyn then kills the WK. THEN they notice its smoking - so the blade is still there, but smoking. THEN it disappears.

Looking ONLY at thr sword, there should be enough time for a 3-4 swings with the same sword at the WK before it melted.

04-03-2003, 09:56 AM	#1
Son of Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 50	How did Frodo get a second sword? Okay, we all know that any blade that touches the witch king will perish, and we first learn this when Frodo attempts to protect himself by striking him. Then, a few pages later, he raises his sword again, then falls on it and breaks it. Maybe I'm overlooking something, but this sword appears to have appeared from nowhere. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

04-03-2003, 11:00 AM	#3
Mornie Alantie Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Somewhere above earth cause people say i should come down to it Posts: 226	Well I see your point. But probably the hobbit was so recourceful that he brought an extra tucked in his pants! You know, he does have a couple of One Rings is his coat pocket. __________________ Instead of pepper spray, you pack a glass bottle and scream "Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!!!" at muggers.

04-03-2003, 11:48 AM	#4
Carorëiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Tennessee Posts: 54	I'm a bit confused--are you talking about the last paragraph of "A Knife in the Dark?" What's confusing you regarding the sword? He only drops it once and doesn't pick it up again: "At that moment Frodo threw himself forward on the ground, and he heard himself crying aloud: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! At the same time he struck at the feet of his enemy. A shrill cry rang out in the night; and he felt a pain like a dart of poisoned ice pierce his left shoulder. Even as he swooned he caught, as through a swirling mist, a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand. With a last effort, dropping his sword, Frodo slipped the Ring from his finger and closed his right hand tight upon it." Are you referring to something in the next chapter? __________________ "Art is our way of keeping track of what we know and have known, secretly, from the beginning."--John Gardner

04-03-2003, 11:57 AM	#5
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	As I recall (look it up to be sure) Frodo's sword didn't actually strike the witch king, it only tore the corner form his cloak (or robe). __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

04-03-2003, 04:19 PM	#7
Arwen Evenstar the Fair Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 235	yea I agree, had Frodo stuck him then he would have been in way worse shape. For instance in ROTK when Merry stabs the Nazgul king, he was seriously damaged on the inside and on the outside, he froze and passed out. Frodo didn't even lose conciousness. __________________ ~Arwen~

04-03-2003, 10:49 AM	#2
One Axe to Rule them All Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The Citadel Posts: 212	ouch, that's a stumper, i need to do some research.... __________________ Why are you reading this? Go outside, be happy, get some sunlight! You're so pasty and thin! You horrify me, GO! Get some light before they take you too! It's too late for me but SAVE YOURSELF! For more LOTR fun, Join The Citadel!

04-04-2003, 09:33 AM	#8
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	It is the Morgul Knife which vanishes in FotR, in RotK it is Merry's barrow-blade. A conflation of the 2 could be the source of confusion. I imagine that at some point when Sting had become Sam's, Sam gave his Barrow sword to Merry. But his is nowhere stated. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

04-04-2003, 03:07 PM	#9
Son of Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 50	maybe it was just my interpretation, when Aragorn said that no blade could stay around after cutting the witch king, i guess i read it as that it had disappeared. This confused me as I am thoroughly convinced that Tolkien would have noticed a mistake like that. HERE'S TO MULTIPLE POINTS OF VIEW. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

04-04-2003, 03:40 PM	#10
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	Here's to paying attention when we read! __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

04-05-2003, 01:10 PM	#11
Burzdol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Fair City of Rivendell Posts: 274	If Frodo's sword didn't hit him directly, than it still would perish, right? ~Burzdol~ __________________ "Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"

04-05-2003, 02:16 PM	#12
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	I refer you to the quotation from Flight to the Ford above. Only a blade that pierces the Witch King (i.e. actually enters whatever passes for his flesh) will perish, although how it comes to pierce him wouldn't matter. Cutting his cloak is only sartorially, not physically, damaging. Tolkien would indeed have noticed so obvious a discrepancy as someone's sword being destroyed and then turning up again in the very next chapter. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think such a compulsive reviser capable of so elementary an error. [ April 05, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ] __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

04-05-2003, 02:39 PM	#13
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I must say, trying to recall it from memory threw me for a loop, I was thinking for a moment that Frodo's sword was indeed destroyed at Weathertop. I mentioned earlier, that the inital confusion of the question was probaly caused by the conflating of melting swords/knives ad I imagine this simple mistake probably led to the confusion. Merry's melts at Pellenor Feiolds and the witch Kings at Amon Sul. And hey, JRRT though a perfectionist, totally botched the chronology of the comparitive journeys from Trollfells to Rivendell between the Hobbit and FotR. I forget the exact discrepancy but I thinkit is 6 days or something according to the 'Atlas'. So he did make a few mistakes! [well ok at least 1 [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

04-07-2003, 07:31 PM	#15
Burzdol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Fair City of Rivendell Posts: 274	It was Sting, not Sam's sword really. I just read that passage yesterday. ~Burzdol~ __________________ "Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"

04-08-2003, 07:02 AM	#16
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	'Merry had his own Barrow sword that he used to stab the Witch King.' Yes but this destroyed it. Thus my hypothesis, that as Sam would have an extra [after Frodo gives him Sting] Sam would give his to Merry's whose was destroyed by the stabbing of the Witch-King [ ' ...the sword broke, splintering into many shards...'] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-19-2012, 03:51 PM	#18
Stronkk Newly Deceased Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 1	I see why I got confused... Like other contributors I think it all comes down to how you read the following passage, which appears shortly after the Attack on Frodo & party at Weathertop. (It's the passage others have quoted, and I think I can explain specifically why there can be multiple interpretations) "'Look!' He cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden in the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'the only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King..." Reading this passage one way, you understand Strider to mean that Frodo must have struck the cloak but missed the Black Rider. In this reading, Strider's is arguing that if Frodo had struck the rider his (Frodo's) sword would have been damaged - and so by inference, Frodo's sword is fine. I think now that this is the correct reading. Formerly, I read this passage differently, as if Strider was meaning "look; you struck your enemy. But you won't have hurt him [i happen to know from lore I'm not going to quotes references for right now]. All you will have achieved is to ruin your sword." This is the meaning you get if you think that 'it' in 'for it is unharmed,' refers to the Black Rider, not the sword. Having (mis)understood that Frodo's barrow sword 'perished' in his fight, I was then wondering what sword he had to break at the Ford a bit later. Also why Frodo doesn't get Ill the way Merry does later when he (Merry) does wound the Nazgul. Presumably Frodo's barrow blade would have been capable of wounding a Black Rider, just as Merry's does later - Frodo simply missed. By the way, I have sometimes wondered why the Balck Riders don't press their attack on Weathertop - it proves to be their best chance to get the ring before Frodo reaches Rivendell. I found: Tolkien quote - They felt they'd had a narrow escape from one of te few weapons that could harm them http://newboards.theonering.net/foru...=274144#274144 A good discussion of this chapter, especially ideas about the limitations of the Black Riders' powers http://newboards.theonering.net/foru...guest=20181802 Last edited by Stronkk; 11-21-2012 at 03:52 PM. Reason: Found the reference I pereviously mentioned as unfindable

12-19-2012, 04:50 PM	#19
cellurdur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 276	I think it has been answered before, but Frodo's sword never touched the Witch King. If it had then the Witch King would have died there and then. There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20:4 the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)-letter 210 So we can imagine that Frodo's blade would have done the same and the Witch King would have fallen down if his flesh had been pierced. Without even mentioning how Frodo's stabbing arm would have become numb.

12-19-2012, 11:11 PM	#20
Juicy-Sweet Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 49	Merry's sword took a little while to perish - Merry cuts the WK's thighs, WK fall, Merry drops the sword. Eowyn then kills the WK. THEN they notice its smoking - so the blade is still there, but smoking. THEN it disappears. Looking ONLY at thr sword, there should be enough time for a 3-4 swings with the same sword at the WK before it melted.