Making the Uruk-hai

[Kyani]

Okay, I know that asking this question is going to out me as a total weirdo but I'm just wondering...

Urku-hai are supposedly hybrids between men and orcs. So... did Saruman use human men or women for this lovely job? Seems to me that perhaps male humans might not work so well, so would that mean captive women used as breeders?

And I'm pretty sure that Tolkein talks about orc-imps, so we have little orcs, but I don't remember reading anything about orc WOMEN. Does anyone have any clues to the existance of orc women? Surely if the orcs reproduce in the manner of men, then there must be? But do they fight or stay at home or what? I can hardly see them "keeping house" lol...

I know probably some of this will be speculation, obviously we are not told that Saruman has human females spawning uruk-hai imps, but I've always been a little curious to what's most likely here, and also curious about the nature of orc/uruk-hai communities.

Any thoughts?

[Galin]

I think the Uruk-hai (which generally means 'Orc-folk') are Orcs, not the result of breeding Men with Orcs. Anyway, Tolkien does mention orc women -- in a letter which wasn't published in the book The Letters of JRR Tolkien however, but came to light somehow, possibly due to an auction.

I think Saruman mixed men and orcs to create the Half-orcs, not his Uruk-hai (who boast that they eat man-flesh).

[radagastly]

There have been a number of threads that discuss reproduction:


http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...t=reproduction

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...t=reproduction

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...t=reproduction

These are just a few. Sorry, I never learned to substitute text in a url link.

Since Tolkien considered orcs to be corrupted or "muitated" elves (and later considered that they might be corrupted men) the biology of reproduction would be identical to human biology.

Considering the social interaction needed to implement such breeding, I personally like to think of orc-women as being similar to the aggresiveness of Klingon women from the Star Trek universe. That's just me, though. I don't believe Tolkien ever really expressed himself on this subject.

As for Saruman keeping slaves for breeding, it's possible, I guess, but there is no reason to assume that an orc/human mating would produce a hybrid, incapable of producing their own progeny. Saruman could easily have found existing orc/human half-orcs somewhere in the mountains, perhaps, and mated them to produce more. I believe the Uruk-hai were just a different breed of Orcs, not a mix. I could be wrong, though

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by radagastly

As for Saruman keeping slaves for breeding, it's possible, I guess, but there is no reason to assume that an orc/human mating would produce a hybrid, incapable of producing their own progeny. Saruman could easily have found existing orc/human half-orcs somewhere in the mountains, perhaps, and mated them to produce more. I believe the Uruk-hai were just a different breed of Orcs, not a mix. I could be wrong, though

In support of the idea that Uruk-hai was a particular breed of "pure" Orc, we see Uglúk of Isengard using the term.

'But in the meantime the Uruk-hai of Isengard can do the dirty work, as usual'.

The Two Towers The Uruk-Hai

Bigger and more powerful Orcs, but not half-breeds.

It seems that Saruman gets the blame in the books for the racial mixing, so I think it unlikely there were any previously existing examples prior to his machinations. The Mannish subjects used by him would probably have come from Dunland, maybe of outlaws and such driven out by their fellows. I don't think those need necessarily have been totally unwilling slaves in every case. There could have been at least a few whose hatred of Rohan and the West surpassed any reluctance toward Orcish intimacy.