Rings of Power talk!

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

If Gandalf did believe that the nine kept the rings of power that leads me to ask another question. When the king of the ring wraiths fell in battle why did he not then go and seek out his ring?

Well, there is the simple fact that the Witch King's death happens in the middle of a major battle, Gandalf certainly has more things on his plate thang going out to comb a battlefield for a ring that really isn't all that much of an immediate threat (Gandalf, after all, knows how the wraith's rings work,more or less, and knows they take some time to corrupt a person into a Nazgul. Pellenor is near the endgame, and Gandalf knows it. Whether the war goes for them or against them, it will probably be over before that can happen, unless Sauron already has someone lined up and prepped (he does, in. the Mouth of Sauron (and possibly others) but Gandalf probably doesn't know about them)
But, I tend to think the reason is that, whether or not Gandalf knew Sauron held the Nine at the time of the Council, he did know (or had worked it out) by the time of the Battle of Pellenor fields. This explains something later, why as the Walls of Bara-Dur are crumbling Gandalf doesn't feel the need to turn his attention to the Nazgul. Assuming we assume he still doesn't know, he would assume they all still have thier rings, and, more importantly are still alive and capable of much mischief (no one else has dropped dead when their ring was taken away from them, and the Three didn't stop working the moment Sauron bit it (Gandalf has Narya, so he would probably sort of know if it had suddenly conked out) so there is no particualr reason to assume that there are not 8 still fully living Ringwraiths, with still currently functional rings, riding winged beasts, fully capable of wheeling around flying to Minast Tirith, and basically obliterating it, then rallying Saurons troops into a frenzy force that could destroy the Free peoples anyway .Yes he does hop and eagle and head in the general direction they went (Actually that would make for a really nice twist to the story, what if the reason Gandalf and the Eagles were coming to Mount Doon was that they were pursing the Nazgul, and the discovery and rescue of Frodo and Bilbo was a lucky coincidence) but only 2, not really all that much if he expected an actual arial battle.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Well, there is the simple fact that the Witch King's death happens in the middle of a major battle, Gandalf certainly has more things on his plate thang going out to comb a battlefield for a ring that really isn't all that much of an immediate threat (Gandalf, after all, knows how the wraith's rings work,more or less, and knows they take some time to corrupt a person into a Nazgul. Pellenor is near the endgame, and Gandalf knows it. Whether the war goes for them or against them, it will probably be over before that can happen, unless Sauron already has someone lined up and prepped (he does, in. the Mouth of Sauron (and possibly others) but Gandalf probably doesn't know about them)
But, I tend to think the reason is that, whether or not Gandalf knew Sauron held the Nine at the time of the Council, he did know (or had worked it out) by the time of the Battle of Pellenor fields. This explains something later, why as the Walls of Bara-Dur are crumbling Gandalf doesn't feel the need to turn his attention to the Nazgul. Assuming we assume he still doesn't know, he would assume they all still have thier rings, and, more importantly are still alive and capable of much mischief (no one else has dropped dead when their ring was taken away from them, and the Three didn't stop working the moment Sauron bit it (Gandalf has Narya, so he would probably sort of know if it had suddenly conked out) so there is no particualr reason to assume that there are not 8 still fully living Ringwraiths, with still currently functional rings, riding winged beasts, fully capable of wheeling around flying to Minast Tirith, and basically obliterating it, then rallying Saurons troops into a frenzy force that could destroy the Free peoples anyway .Yes he does hop and eagle and head in the general direction they went (Actually that would make for a really nice twist to the story, what if the reason Gandalf and the Eagles were coming to Mount Doon was that they were pursing the Nazgul, and the discovery and rescue of Frodo and Bilbo was a lucky coincidence) but only 2, not really all that much if he expected an actual arial battle.

I understand your point of view but there was plenty of time after the battle for Gandalf to look into this issue even if it only took a moment of his time when walking among the dead on the battlefield. This is of course assuming that the ring didn't slip Gandalf mind? If the ring of power was just laying on the battlefield awaiting someone else to pick it up I'm sure Gandalf would be concerned about don't you? Even if that was a minor issue on his list of things to do.
PS: Of course Gandalf did do many things that were never written into the book I'm going to assume that this could have been one of them what do you think?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

I understand your point of view but there was plenty of time after the battle for Gandalf to look into this issue even if it only took a moment of his time when walking among the dead on the battlefield. This is of course assuming that the ring didn't slip Gandalf mind? If the ring of power was just laying on the battlefield awaiting someone else to pick it up I'm sure Gandalf would be concerned about don't you? Even if that was a minor issue on his list of things to do.
PS: Of course Gandalf did do many things that were never written into the book I'm going to assume that this could have been one of them what do you think?

It might have taken a lot more than a moment. We're talking about a loose ring (remember the WK dissolved when he died so it's not like a matter of "find the WK's body and pull the ring off his finger") on a battlefied that is still somewhat active; in a place that would have been trod over by the people who bore Eowyn, Merry and Theoden off the field, and possibly by others (remember the reason Eomer is willing to sacrafice troops to carry Theoden away mid battle is that he thinks it's quite likely that the tide of battle could flow over the spot.) If the ring had not been taken by someone, it would likey be already trodden into the mud beyond visibility if not accidentally burined under Snowmane (who the men would have had to move to get Theoden out) or the Fell Beast (who they could have had to move to get the people out, or whose corpse could simply have been pushed by something). Unless Gandalf posseed Sauron's ability to sense the rings (and he doesn't) finding it would likey be akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

It might have taken a lot more than a moment. We're talking about a loose ring (remember the WK dissolved when he died so it's not like a matter of "find the WK's body and pull the ring off his finger") on a battlefied that is still somewhat active; in a place that would have been trod over by the people who bore Eowyn, Merry and Theoden off the field, and possibly by others (remember the reason Eomer is willing to sacrafice troops to carry Theoden away mid battle is that he thinks it's quite likely that the tide of battle could flow over the spot.) If the ring had not been taken by someone, it would likey be already trodden into the mud beyond visibility if not accidentally burined under Snowmane (who the men would have had to move to get Theoden out) or the Fell Beast (who they could have had to move to get the people out, or whose corpse could simply have been pushed by something). Unless Gandalf posseed Sauron's ability to sense the rings (and he doesn't) finding it would likey be akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

You make very good points and I agree it may have taken more effort and time then what Gandalf was willing to put in to find the ring. Now the WK did dissolve but I'm assuming his clothing was left behind or his gauntlet if he had one? Also there are the dead mounts on the ground like you said, so it wouldn't be extremely hard for Gandalf to find the scene if he so desired it. I'd still like to believe that Gandalf did do a quick search for the ring even though it wasn't mentioned in the book, he might have even picked it up and kept it safe. I also don't think Gandalf would've spent a lot of time in searching for it ether way.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

You make very good points and I agree it may have taken more effort and time then what Gandalf was willing to put in to find the ring. Now the WK did dissolve but I'm assuming his clothing was left behind or his gauntlet if he had one? Also there are the dead mounts on the ground like you said, so it wouldn't be extremely hard for Gandalf to find the scene if he so desired it. I'd still like to believe that Gandalf did do a quick search for the ring even though it wasn't mentioned in the book, he might have even picked it up and kept it safe. I also don't think Gandalf would've spent a lot of time in searching for it ether way.

Find the spot yes, find where in the spot the ring might be no.
As for the WK leavings, we are told his cloak stays behind, and his crown. Everything else is left up to interpretation (I seem to remember Merry saying something to the effect that "There is nothing left but a crown and an empty cloak" but that is probably just the BBC version of the statement.) And even they may no longer be there (much as you like to believe that Gandalf made a cursory seach for the ring, I like to beleive the crown, and perhaps the cloak as well, would have been picked up by some loyal servant of Sauron, to be presented to Khamul (assuming that he inherits the title of "Witch King of Angmar" along with that of "Lord of the Nazgul")) But even if the armor is left behind with no hand inside it, the ring could easily fall off or out (depending on whether Gandalf thinks the WK would wear his ring under or over any mail gauntlet.)

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Find the spot yes, find where in the spot the ring might be no.
As for the WK leavings, we are told his cloak stays behind, and his crown. Everything else is left up to interpretation (I seem to remember Merry saying something to the effect that "There is nothing left but a crown and an empty cloak" but that is probably just the BBC version of the statement.) And even they may no longer be there (much as you like to believe that Gandalf made a cursory seach for the ring, I like to beleive the crown, and perhaps the cloak as well, would have been picked up by some loyal servant of Sauron, to be presented to Khamul (assuming that he inherits the title of "Witch King of Angmar" along with that of "Lord of the Nazgul")) But even if the armor is left behind with no hand inside it, the ring could easily fall off or out (depending on whether Gandalf thinks the WK would wear his ring under or over any mail gauntlet.)

True, I can see the point you make about his crown being sought out by a loyal servant of Sauron. However if the enemy did go to pick up the dead WK's crown he would have undoubtedly found the Lady and the hobbit laying their next to his crown helpless and easy to slay or hack apart while they grabbed the crown, just a thought?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

True, I can see the point you make about his crown being sought out by a loyal servant of Sauron. However if the enemy did go to pick up the dead WK's crown he would have undoubtedly found the Lady and the hobbit laying their next to his crown helpless and easy to slay or hack apart while they grabbed the crown, just a thought?

I meant AFTER Eowyn, Merry,and Theoden had been taken away. Before then, the area is occupied by Eomer (He hears Theoden's last words, so he gets there before Theoden is completely dead). The amount of time between when Eowyn kills the WK and Eomer gets to Theoden is minimal. And given the circumstnaces, anyone seeing the battle is likey to know Eomer isn't going to simply say "someone get these three off the battlefield" and then walk away, he's going to stay there until he sees the job is being done. but AFTER they are taken in, the area is just sort of abandoned for a while (before they come back to yank the fell beast off snowmane, burn the beast, and bury the horse). THAT's when a loyal servant could decide was a good time, particualry if the sevant in question is someone like Gothmog, who is on a fell beast himself and so can simply swoop in grab the crown and fly off with minimal risk. Or just a quick Uruk-hai or Man (no offence to them, but I imagine the Oolog-hai aren't quite bright enough to see the signifcance of a crown, particualry a rather dull in color one (the WK's crown is iron, remember). And at that point there really isn't all that much defilement they can do, even if they want to. Eowyn, Merry and Theoden are gone. Snowmane (if they want to defile his body) is still buried under the beast. If a Mordorian or Angmarian made it to the spot, taking the crown and cloak would be about all they could do.

[jallanite]

There are a number of places where Tolkien tells clearly that the Nazgûl no longer possessed their rings, Sauron having taken them back. Sauron controled the Nazgûl by the rings which he held.

Gandalf explains this to Frodo in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past″:

So it is now: the Nine he [Sauron] has gathered to himself; …

For a recent discussion of this see http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...175#post676175 and the following posts.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

There are a number of places where Tolkien tells clearly that the Nazgûl no longer possessed their rings, Sauron having taken them back. Sauron controled the Nazgûl by the rings which he held.

Gandalf explains this to Frodo in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past″:

So it is now: the Nine he [Sauron] has gathered to himself; …

For a recent discussion of this see http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...175#post676175 and the following posts.

Then please share your interpretation of this? Spoken at the Council of Elrond is precisely:
"The Nine the Nazgûl keep."

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

Then please share your interpretation of this? Spoken at the Council of Elrond is precisely:
"The Nine the Nazgûl keep."

As I indicated, go to http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...175#post676175

That post and the following ones cover a number of quotations about the Nazgûl rings.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

The sentence spoken at the Council of Elrond is precisely:

The Nine the Nazgûl keep.

Given the many other passages by Tolkien in which Sauron himself possesses the Nine, it would seem that Tolkien, as he often does, is using inversion here. The sentence has “The Nine” as its subject. What do “the Nine” do? They “keep”. What then do the nine Rings keep? They keep the Nazgûl in line for Sauron.

The sentence would be translated into normal modern word order as “The Nine keep the Nazgûl.”

Christopher Tolkien unfortunately does not cover Gandalf’s explanation in the HoME volumes, as least so far as I have found. So HoME sheds no light on this sentence.

That is the only explanation that I have discovered. I read this suggestion years ago in some fanzine. Tolkien, more used to including inversions in the words of his speakers then most modern readers, might not have noticed that this sentence is ambiguous, especially since he would already know what he meant by it.

It's just my opinion but I don't think he was using an inversion. The statement is very clear and to the point leaving very little room for interpretation. Also I got the impression that when he was talking about the greater rings of power he wanted to make it to the point and keep it simple because he didn't really want to be talking about their locations.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

It's just my opinion but I don't think he was using an inversion. The statement is very clear and to the point leaving very little room for interpretation. Also I got the impression that when he was talking about the greater rings of power he wanted to make it to the point and keep it simple because he didn't really want to be talking about their locations.

*Sigh!*

The discussion continues until http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...201#post676201 which makes it plain that I don’t like the explanation I presented either.

But what of that?

Tolkien twice elsewhere in The Lord of the Rings and once in Letters and twice in Unfinished Tales claims that the nine Rings possessed by mortals had returned to Sauron by that time. See http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm and search on “C7.” for a complete discussion.

The mention in the chapter “The Council of Elrond” is either to be interpreted according to my suggestion or it is in error.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

*Sigh!*

The discussion continues until http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...201#post676201 which makes it plain that I don’t like the explanation I presented either.

But what of that?

Tolkien twice elsewhere in The Lord of the Rings and once in Letters and twice in Unfinished Tales claims that the nine Rings possessed by mortals had returned to Sauron by that time. See http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm and search on “C7.” for a complete discussion.

The mention in the chapter “The Council of Elrond” is either to be interpreted according to my suggestion or it is in error.

Could be an error then.
PS: However I'm more inclined to believe that when token talks about Sauron gathering the nine to himself he could have been referring to the (ring wraiths). After all if he has control of the (ring wraiths) then he pretty much has control of the nine rings of power. It would pretty much for all reasoning be the one and the same.

PSS: Where were the nine and their rings of power during the Hobbit?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Radtech

PS: However I'm more inclined to believe that when token talks about Sauron gathering the nine to himself he could have been referring to the (ring wraiths). After all if he has control of the (ring wraiths) then he pretty much has control of the nine rings of power. It would pretty much for all reasoning be the one and the same.

Ingenious... but I'm afraid it won't wash. The quotes jallanite links to make that plain:

Originally Posted by FAQ of the Rings

“... Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control. ...” [L #246 (331)]
Gandalf tells Frodo, “the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed.” [LotR I 2 (65)]
Galadriel tells Frodo that, looking in her mirror, “You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.” [LotR II 7 (386)]
In “The Hunt for the Ring”, we read of Sauron’s “mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.” [UT: HR (338)]
In another version of “The Hunt for the Ring”, again we read that the Ringwraiths “were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which [Sauron] now himself held”. [UT: HR (343)]

As you see, even if you suppose "the Seven" to be the Dwarf-lords(!), the information is given several other ways that won't bear even that interpretation.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ingenious... but I'm afraid it won't wash. The quotes jallanite links to make that plain:



As you see, even if you suppose "the Seven" to be the Dwarf-lords(!), the information is given several other ways that won't bear even that interpretation.

I tend to agree, the evidence tends to supports the theory of a contradiction in the book favoring the fact that J.R.R Tolkien did make a mistake.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

I tend to agree, the evidence tends to supports the theory of a contradiction in the book favoring the fact that J.R.R Tolkien did make a mistake.

One more possible explanation for Gandalf's statement "The Nine the Nazgûl keep", is that maybe it was Gandalf's (admittedly unclear) way of saying "The Nine are accounted for; they are forever associated with the Nazgûl".
Speculation? Yes? Was the passage in question very possibly a mere uncorrected slip? Yes. Still, like I said, I like to seek "in-world" answers to such questions as this whenever I can.

[Alfirin]

I would also like to point out that,while unlikey (in that it would be a deviation from the subject of the conversation) in a certain sense, the quote as it stands makes sense in another manner, that of meaning "The Nine are keptthe Nazgul", not literally, but figuratively. In a certian sense, each of the Nazgul is kept by his ring. The rings keep them in the sense of "keeping them slaves". They also likely "keep them" as in "preserve" them (out of all the ringbearers in the history, The Nazul are the ONLY ones (apart maybe from Gollum) whose time on earth is extended sufficiently that we KNOW thier rings have allowed them to "live past thier time" (Bilbo lives quite long for a hobbit, in fact as long as the longest lived hobbit known to that date, but the very fact that there was a hobbit before him that matched that age indicates that that lifespan is not outside of the range of normal hobbit possibility (i.e. that he could not have lived the exact same amount of time had he never worn the ring).