Jules Verne - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

VarTalman · 10-05-2012, 09:46 AM

Like "Vernians" who believe that Jules Verne actually wrote about true experiences and not science fiction in some of his works, many students see very close parallels between Bible images and the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien. While some study Tolkien the man and his beliefs, much more in the spirit of the “Vernians” Bible students study the two texts side-by-side. Given that these students see the world through certain “rose-colored glasses” attempting to see parallels, the imagery that emerges side-by-side does seem very familiar.
The discussions here and other places have beaten the “allegory” drum to death over WW2 and political imagery. Yet there is a definite room for argument that Tolkien’s Middle Earth and the Biblical narrative share a familiarity. This is not merely a sense that both narratives are very religious. There are distinctive points that come very close in both stories.
One of these images can be seen clearly when reading LOTR about the Path of the Dead and then simply reading the scripture below:

Ezekiel 37: The Valley of Dry Bones (NIV84)
1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”
I said, “O Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.
11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

Pay attention to verse 12 if you think this is not closely familiar to the LOTR text. There is much more a parallel than all the argumentation on “allegory v. myth” and “Catholicism and Middle Earth” give credit. Much more in the spirit of those who believe Jules Verne was there in the midst of his stories, so too here the texts parallel closely side-by-side. Perhaps if we were all better students of the Bible, we could know the LOTR more richly than ever before thought.

VarTalman · 10-05-2012, 09:51 AM

Ezekiel 37:9 displays the purpose of this resurrection - a vast army.

Just sayin...

Legate of Amon Lanc · 10-05-2012, 10:17 AM

Hi VarTalman,

your point about parallels between LotR and some other literary works, namely the Bible, is of course valid. There have certainly been pages and pages filled with musings about those parallels, how much or how close they are, which are the most "striking" ones etc.

Personally, I would not consider the Path of the Dead being in any way the "striking" case. Of course one familiar with a tale of some "rising dead" would easily recall it when reading it - but that's the familiarity you mention in your example of Verne: it is easy to attempt to see a parallel, but it does not necessarily fit unless you force it.

I believe everyone would agree that the tale of bones rising back from death, by itself, is not anything specific to the Bible and Tolkien. You will find many more and much closer parallels in many old folk mythologies, through various epic tales up to modern literature.

The text you mention has, when you look at the context, very little to do with the role the story of the Paths of the Dead has in Tolkien. In LotR, these "bones" (if you can even talk about bones - I'm not sure if in the book there is any reference to bones except for the corpse of poor Rohanian explorer prince; the Dead are "shades of Men", not any walking skeletons - likewise, in Ezekiel it is not about walking skeletons, but, as you can read in the quote you provided, these "dry bones" gather flesh and skin and are, effectively, brought back to life as normal humans), these Dead of Dunharrow come back to aid the King of Gondor to return to his realm, defeating the people of his kingdom from the threat of Umbar corsairs. In Ezekiel, the story is a view of future "resurrection", of "revival" also of the land, of the dry and desolate and destroyed country. So the meaning of the two "stories", if you wish, is something completely different.

If there is anything of a similar feeling in Tolkien, then I could think of e.g. reclaiming of Dale. One could imagine a Middle-Earth's "Ezekiel" standing in the Dale shortly after its destruction by Smaug and being shown the vision of its renewal in the future (after the slaying of the dragon): once dead land, the Dragon's desolation, is renewed (even though Ezekiel has even deeper meaning, since the renewal is also on the spiritual level, and to be proper, it should resurrect those who perished in the destruction of Dale and return them to their renewed homes). But in my opinion the similarity to the Dead Men of Dunharrow can be only "outward" (dead people coming to life - and not even that, because the Dead of Dunharrow do NOT come back to life, they are trapped in "un-death" until they fulfil their oath, and then they are gone - while the revived ones in Ezekiel settle down and live in the land renewed).

So, while I certainly agree that there could be things where Tolkien's writings consciously, unconsciously, visibly or less visibly allude to the Bible, I would not list this as one of them. Tolkien, unlike Lewis, has been in many ways inspired by the Bible "thematically", I would say, rather than "literally": he uses themes (temptation of power; mercy, forgiveness and redemption; hope! and "strength of the weak ones"; promises of renewal of the lost etc...), but not obvious references in the sense that he would copy a Biblical story and narrate it with different characters.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 10-05-2012, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VarTalman

Ezekiel 37:9 displays the purpose of this resurrection - a vast army.

And as you see, this "army" is not meant to go and help any sort of Aragorn to defeat darkness, but to go and settle down. Maybe a "host" is better translation here, the original word denotes "strength", the main point is the vastness of the resurrected amount (since the point in Ezekiel is that all those who seemed defeated and despairing - v. 11 - shall return to life and live in the land). And the purpose of this army is not to fight, but simply to go and settle down in the land: to live again in the home they had been promised (v. 14).

VarTalman · 10-05-2012, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Hi VarTalman,

your point about parallels between LotR and some other literary works, namely the Bible, is of course valid. There have certainly been pages and pages filled with musings about those parallels, how much or how close they are, which are the most "striking" ones etc.

Thank you for your thoughful response.

(I attempt an answer a paragraph at a time and clarify that aim specifically at the Bible - not any other literary work as equal or mixed in.)

It seems possible that Tolkien found another creative way to present the Biblical narrative in his works. More than merely inspiration or history, but a re-telling of much more than themes. There is quite an encompassing timeline that compares to the Biblical age-wise. (Pardon for painting with the broadest strokes possible.)

- First Age of Middle Earth = parallels = the Golden Age of Heaven & Creation
- Second Age of Middle Earth = parallels = the Fall of Angels and later Man & Old Testament times
- Third Age of Middle Earth = parallels = the New Testament time of Jesus, the Church & Apocalypse
- Fourth Age of Middle Earth = parallels = the Millenium of Peace
- Fifth Age of Middle Earth = parallels = the Last Battle & End of Evil
- Sixth Age of Middle Earth = parallels = the New Heaven & Earth
- Seventh Age of Middle Earth = parallels = Eternity

There is good reason to call it "myth" because there is actual recorded history wrapped up in it along with some stretched conjecture as to what happens in the times not accounted for. Tolkien could have really been out to tell the whole story of what has and will happen in actual human history (like the followers of Jules Verne)

VarTalman · 10-05-2012, 04:25 PM

A side note...

It is important to when working with a "myth" to understand the Hellenistic philosophical connotations (do not think "chair" but the essence representative of a chair.)

So, for example, when the beacons of Gondor are lit - they represent more than fires set throughout the land but what essence the beacons represent. They are a message for aid. They are transmitters. Fire represents living spirit of hope. They shine out for all to see. They represent highest points. They are alarms alerts and a message going out.

Tolkien was not a fan of technology - so do not see the beacons like a mere telegraph. The spiritual essence of it is so much more.

Maybe I should write a book...

10-05-2012, 09:46 AM	#1
VarTalman Newly Deceased Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 10	Jules Verne Like "Vernians" who believe that Jules Verne actually wrote about true experiences and not science fiction in some of his works, many students see very close parallels between Bible images and the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien. While some study Tolkien the man and his beliefs, much more in the spirit of the “Vernians” Bible students study the two texts side-by-side. Given that these students see the world through certain “rose-colored glasses” attempting to see parallels, the imagery that emerges side-by-side does seem very familiar. The discussions here and other places have beaten the “allegory” drum to death over WW2 and political imagery. Yet there is a definite room for argument that Tolkien’s Middle Earth and the Biblical narrative share a familiarity. This is not merely a sense that both narratives are very religious. There are distinctive points that come very close in both stories. One of these images can be seen clearly when reading LOTR about the Path of the Dead and then simply reading the scripture below: Ezekiel 37: The Valley of Dry Bones (NIV84) 1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” I said, “O Sovereign Lord, you alone know.” 4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’” 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. 9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army. 11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’” Pay attention to verse 12 if you think this is not closely familiar to the LOTR text. There is much more a parallel than all the argumentation on “allegory v. myth” and “Catholicism and Middle Earth” give credit. Much more in the spirit of those who believe Jules Verne was there in the midst of his stories, so too here the texts parallel closely side-by-side. Perhaps if we were all better students of the Bible, we could know the LOTR more richly than ever before thought.

10-05-2012, 09:51 AM	#2
VarTalman Newly Deceased Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 10	A Vast Army Ezekiel 37:9 displays the purpose of this resurrection - a vast army. Just sayin...

10-05-2012, 10:17 AM	#3
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Hi VarTalman, your point about parallels between LotR and some other literary works, namely the Bible, is of course valid. There have certainly been pages and pages filled with musings about those parallels, how much or how close they are, which are the most "striking" ones etc. Personally, I would not consider the Path of the Dead being in any way the "striking" case. Of course one familiar with a tale of some "rising dead" would easily recall it when reading it - but that's the familiarity you mention in your example of Verne: it is easy to attempt to see a parallel, but it does not necessarily fit unless you force it. I believe everyone would agree that the tale of bones rising back from death, by itself, is not anything specific to the Bible and Tolkien. You will find many more and much closer parallels in many old folk mythologies, through various epic tales up to modern literature. The text you mention has, when you look at the context, very little to do with the role the story of the Paths of the Dead has in Tolkien. In LotR, these "bones" (if you can even talk about bones - I'm not sure if in the book there is any reference to bones except for the corpse of poor Rohanian explorer prince; the Dead are "shades of Men", not any walking skeletons - likewise, in Ezekiel it is not about walking skeletons, but, as you can read in the quote you provided, these "dry bones" gather flesh and skin and are, effectively, brought back to life as normal humans), these Dead of Dunharrow come back to aid the King of Gondor to return to his realm, defeating the people of his kingdom from the threat of Umbar corsairs. In Ezekiel, the story is a view of future "resurrection", of "revival" also of the land, of the dry and desolate and destroyed country. So the meaning of the two "stories", if you wish, is something completely different. If there is anything of a similar feeling in Tolkien, then I could think of e.g. reclaiming of Dale. One could imagine a Middle-Earth's "Ezekiel" standing in the Dale shortly after its destruction by Smaug and being shown the vision of its renewal in the future (after the slaying of the dragon): once dead land, the Dragon's desolation, is renewed (even though Ezekiel has even deeper meaning, since the renewal is also on the spiritual level, and to be proper, it should resurrect those who perished in the destruction of Dale and return them to their renewed homes). But in my opinion the similarity to the Dead Men of Dunharrow can be only "outward" (dead people coming to life - and not even that, because the Dead of Dunharrow do NOT come back to life, they are trapped in "un-death" until they fulfil their oath, and then they are gone - while the revived ones in Ezekiel settle down and live in the land renewed). So, while I certainly agree that there could be things where Tolkien's writings consciously, unconsciously, visibly or less visibly allude to the Bible, I would not list this as one of them. Tolkien, unlike Lewis, has been in many ways inspired by the Bible "thematically", I would say, rather than "literally": he uses themes (temptation of power; mercy, forgiveness and redemption; hope! and "strength of the weak ones"; promises of renewal of the lost etc...), but not obvious references in the sense that he would copy a Biblical story and narrate it with different characters. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

10-05-2012, 04:25 PM	#6
VarTalman Newly Deceased Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 10	A side note... It is important to when working with a "myth" to understand the Hellenistic philosophical connotations (do not think "chair" but the essence representative of a chair.) So, for example, when the beacons of Gondor are lit - they represent more than fires set throughout the land but what essence the beacons represent. They are a message for aid. They are transmitters. Fire represents living spirit of hope. They shine out for all to see. They represent highest points. They are alarms alerts and a message going out. Tolkien was not a fan of technology - so do not see the beacons like a mere telegraph. The spiritual essence of it is so much more. Maybe I should write a book...