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#1 | |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
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How often have we heard this accusation, as Tolkien fans? Or, indeed, as fans of anything at all? There is something about becoming emphatically interested in certain topics that produces a lot of bile and hatred from many parties. I never really understood why. A friend of mine was reading a book about fans and fandom of something else and came across this quotation, which I think may help us understand the ridicule...
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So, why do we do it? The 'reality' of Middle Earth may be debatable, but we just can't stop loving it! This topic is here for us to discuss our trials and tribulations as Tolkien fans. When has a useful quote from Gandalf got you out of a tight spot? A quick "what would Bilbo do in these circumstances" given you a new way of looking at things? A Gollum riddle stumped your friends? Do we all get a hard time from others about our supposed 'obsessive' behavior?
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... Last edited by Hookbill the Goomba; 07-25-2008 at 10:06 AM. |
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#2 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Fandom, what fandom?
I'm just here to lynch people. ![]()
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#3 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
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Celebrities, real?
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Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
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#4 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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For myself, I think I could say a lot about this, as in our RPGing group, we have sort of "private jokes" about that we are considered weird by others. While in real, we are not. Although it's not only about ourselves, we also say this about the people who go on all sorts of fantasy actions, and the most about people who dress up in fantasy costumes and such, and in large sense about the people who go on these "live battles" (I would like to know, is there a special word for it in English?), but again, that's because most of us count ourselves among these groups. I am not sure how well can I express it, but for example: recently we were returning from our summer cottage where we gathered for playing Dungeons&Dragons, and so we went back, sat in the bus, and one of my friends took out the rulebook and started to study some spells. The rest of us looked at each other, saying: "That's horrible!" While of course we didn't mean it, but it's simply became a "private joke" of our company. Similar things happen when we see people dressed up in fantasy costumes in the metro or such things. We usually start to talk between ourselves, as if we were speaking to the others: "Hey, you are going to the Battle of Five Armies? Are you? Yes, of course you do! You must know good old [insert a fellow geek's name]! Of course!" But most typical, when we are for example arranging an RPG meeting, we joke like "Yes, let's go and play. I've been missing it! I just got through the exams for this semester and now I finally have time for playing! Of course! Yes, of course it's horrible! Of course I've not been studying at all, but I've been planning my character! When are we going to play? Next weekend? I'm going to be on my friend's cottage just before that. Of course I will take the handbook with me! Of course! I know I'm an addict! Yes, and I am proud of it! Which is horrible!" And all of this with the imaginary "
![]() So, in my case, I don't see being seen as weird as a problem coming from the "outside" (and I don't think I ever encountered anything more than people not understanding what the things we do are), simply because my friends - for some reason, and it reaches into times long ago - made it a joke from the "inside".
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#5 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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![]() ![]() Perhaps The Downer should do an indepth inquiry into this. ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#6 | |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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#7 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. Used to think that I was geeky; then I went to a Star Trek convention
![]() Much has been written regarding the attraction of Tolkien's works. Finding someone else who enjoys the same thing just adds that human connection, which we all need and may want. And, having visited Graceland (the house of Elvis Presley), I've realized that we all have 'something;' ours is just LotR. It's probably due to some gene. ![]()
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#8 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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![]() Needless to say, we went on and on for the whole car ride...he kept asking me questions and when I told him the answer, he purposely messed with the way a name was pronounced, just to try and get to me (yeah, he's that type of kid). For example, "Sauron" became "Zordon", and so on. Yes he is annoying. The "real life" thing kicked in again because I tried to relate my obssesion with him. He's obsessed with hockey - the NHL. He of course used the argument, like Hookbill pointed out, that hockey is real and Middle-earth isn't. I rebuked him again by saying "that hasn't been proven yet!" And his needless badgering went on. I could think of a ton of these sorts of instances, but I'll leave it at that one. People I talk to who don't know Tolkien find it amusing that I can tell them pretty much everything about LotR and Middle-earth. Quote:
Great topic! Middle-earth is much deeper and meaningful than any non-believer could understand.
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"Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring |
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#9 |
Fair and Cold
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I was born to be a fan-girl and shall die a fan-girl. If I live to 80, I will be a fan-girl. My future grandkids can make fun of me all they want.
Some things you can't change, no matter who thinks you're sad. ![]()
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~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~ |
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#10 | |
Mighty Quill
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Walking off to look for America
Posts: 2,230
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If I remember correctly my friend, Lauri's first post on the BD went something like
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But at school I usually am associated with Middle-Earth in general and have my own Middle-earth related nickname... But my mom found "The Very Secret Diaries" (which btw I recommend not reading if you value your sanity) and my dad was reading it out loud and was pronouncing Moria, Moriah. Which made me very upset because of the fact that I seem to have found myself in the obsessive position. I guess I was born to be obsessed with something and so I am... ![]()
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The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.
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#11 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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I must thank Hookbill for his thoughtful editing which provides help to those who, unaccustomed to watching television, are less adept than others at reading this dark screen.
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I myself daily wish that I had an ent's company in my garden. I've got a few plants that would really benefit from some ent-draught. ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 07-25-2008 at 04:59 PM. Reason: clarifying points with a few caps |
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#12 | |
Fair and Cold
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~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~ |
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#13 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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I went to Graceland, as might be expected, to annoy a coworker who could not stand the King or the adoration that this singer somehow evoked. Knowing that I went to Graceland just irked this person to no end. So I went, intent on playing the part of a true believer, preparing my sarcasm for others who were going under less pretenses. In the Jungle Room, I made the statement that carpeting the walls was 'true fashion genius,' meaning, of course the exact opposite (though with the plastic jungle furniture, I guess that it did sort of work). Much to my amazement, others in the tour group agreed with my observation, though they thought it true. The hair on my head stood up and turned white, much like my avatar. ![]() My faked tears at the gravesite were for both the camera and to 'fit in,' as I feared for my life. People in the group were wailing at the grave as if it were a parent or child, fresh under the turves. I'm guessing that many of these people never met the King in person, and they may *at best* have attended a concert. People left notes, not only at the grave, but in any imperfection in the stone wall that surrounds the compound. Every square inch, on the wall, on the sidewalk, on the public telephone, had some message scrawled, such as, "I'll miss you, Blue Eyes." So, to answer your question, the people I've met here may be geeked out about Tolkien, but I've never felt in fear of my life for disagreeing with dogma.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#14 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D. C., USA
Posts: 299
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My point is that our societies, our cultures, have become too large to truly identify ourselves with them. I'm an American, and am delighted and proud to be so, but America is now in excess of three hundred million people, and our herding/tribal instinct cannot be satisfied when we cannot keep all those names straight. So, we find smaller groups to identify with. Being a Tolkien geek is just one of those groups. Sports-fans are just another (larger) group. It could as easily be quilting or gardening or video games or movies (or anything else that people are fans of.) Of course, any group that you're not a part of is weird (or sad) because you're just not interested. From what I can see, that interest seems to happen while puberty sets in. Say, ten to fourteen years old. Maybe sixteen. And we all (hopefully) have more than one group. Literature appreciation is my primary group, and Tolkien especially (at least for me.) That doesn't preclude my interest in gardening, or pets or theatre or bicycling. I don't quite understand my friend who studies every statistic for every baseball player any more than he understands why I re-read The Lord of the Rings every year or so. It's just another group that he's not part of, and baseball fans are just another group that I'm not really a part of. Before I take Cornell seriously, I'd like to know which of these interests to which he has attached himself.
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But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door. |
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#15 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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Being a geek implies something unnatural or unhealthy. I don't believe myself to be a geek, aberrant or doing something unhealthy. So what if I type this missive from a lead-lined bunker in my back yard? The end of the world is coming in 2012, so is there anything wrong with being prepared for the apocalypse? I don't think so. Does it matter that I've collected hair samples from each of the principal stars of the Lord of the Rings movies and had each encased in clear resin? People collect all kinds of things. It's not like I buy potato chips burnt in the likeness of Jesus off of e-bay (although I did manage to get the clavicle of John the Baptist rather inexpensively from a flea-market in Toledo, Ohio).
It's all a matter of perspective, really. If someone claims they don't have an eccentricity of some sort, they are either a liar or in need of a cathartic (perhaps soapy water or green tea). It seems those that cast aspersions on one group (say, against Tolkienistas) have an equally perverted sense of ownership over some other sordid pasttime (be it sports, movies, pets, collectibles, music, shopping or staring blankly at a TV ad infintum). I have acquaintances who dislike the Lord of the Rings, but can give you the batting averages of every starting player from the 1984 World Series; but they can't comprehend how that is just as odd as if I quoted a line from the Silmarillion (or Shakespeare, for that matter), particularly since they haven't played baseball beyond grade school. I do relish claiming they have man-crushes on their favorite sports stars. ![]() Oh, it seems I'm rambling without a point. Perhaps there is no point.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#16 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D. C., USA
Posts: 299
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Originally posted by Morthoron:
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But your point about perspective is well taken. What is the difference, really, between putting on a Hobbit outfit for a convention of some kind, or a movie premier, and donning a Cheese-head at Lambeau Field. Both are costumes that invoke enthusiasm for that particular passion. I should mention here that as a Wisconsinite, I have done both, and frozen my butt off at the second. My point was that, following Tolkien, or J. K. Rowling, or Literature in general or sports or extreme sports or anything else, ties us to a group that has a common interest in that particular passion. As much as we would like it to be otherwise, politics and religion, for the most part, don't give us that sense of community that we would probably prefer to find in patriotism, or faith. As much as I respect these feelings, I would prefer to spend more time arguing Balrog wings than arguing about whether Obama or McCain should be the next President. Whether that's right or wrong is simply not an issue for me on this particular website. I'm here (on the Barrow Downs) to talk about Tolkien, because I love (yes, LOVE) his skill with language, his mastery of mythic sensibility, his grasp of simple human emotion in clearly impossible circumstances (how would YOU feel, if you held in your hand the power to shape the world?) Hello. My name is Craig and I'm a Tolkein geek. My best friend is a baseball geek. My next-best friend is a Madonna geek. I've never met anyone who wasn't a geek of some kind. It's not an insult. It's just a fact.
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But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door. |
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#17 | |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
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As you mentioned, things like football, baseball and the like have very similar traits as our 'sad obsessive' interests. Yet the former are seen as more acceptable. Is this purely because they have a larger following? Now, I'm sure the great geek uprising of 2098 will wipe out half the population of the earth, but for now, I don't think that the ridicule is really out of any real 'fear' of the different. Perhaps some insecure people feel uncomfortable about someone, shock horror, having other interests than the larger mass of people.
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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#18 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#19 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Still, I'm the only Hobbit from Gallifrey so I haven't got room to talk, have I? ![]()
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Gordon's alive!
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#20 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,360
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Before I came to these wonderful Downs I had to be a fan "by myself", because only one person who I knew has read LOTR (or any other Tolkien books), and he didn't like to discuss it. NO ONE at my school even knew who Tolkien was! ![]() ![]() ![]() So yeah. My Tolkien obsession is pretty much ignored by the majority of people. And the rest either disapprove or are too exasperated to say anything serious about it.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#21 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
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*Laughs heartily* Does this imply that celebrities live a 'real' life?
![]() I can say that no one can prove that God is real, yet plenty of people worship Him. Are they all insane loons? Well, that's my view when someone tells me, "You're obsessed!"
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"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
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#22 | |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
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![]() Anyway, I'd proudly call myself a Tolkien geek, and I see no reason to hide or feel ashamed about that (not that it shows, mind you, and like 80 % of my acquaintances probably have no clue that I know the history of Arda better than I know the history of my own country). I mean, most people like their fellows to be open about who they are if you have a certain sense of humour about it, and those who don't, well, they probably aren't worth the effort to try to impress in the first place. Obsessive people are rather tiresome though, whether they are sports-freaks, Trekkies, or Tolkien-geeks, and obsession to me signifies something unhealthy. Keep it in perspective, I suppose I'm saying.
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"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan |
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#23 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,360
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#24 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
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"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
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#25 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
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"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
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#26 |
Mighty Quill
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Walking off to look for America
Posts: 2,230
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Having found this thread again whilst looking for another thread, I have a few things to say about it that I didn't before.
Recently I had the (not so pleasant opportunity) to experience obsessive from another point of view. Before, I would brag about how obsessive I was, but no more. I now know what obsessive looks from another angle, and it scared me. For a while I was quasi-courting a young man (who was actually rather boring). I tried to ask him things about himself, like what things he liked to do with his spare time, what he wanted to do as a career, what his favourite books were, ect. He wasn't forthcoming with information, and it took me a while to realise why. What I did learn was not only did I find that he was as aimless as anyone could be, but he was also obsessive, dangerously obsessive. After discovering this, it didn't take long for me to distance myself from him. I found what the other side of that feels like, and I was actually rather disgusted. I find myself now telling openly geeky people to "get a life" under my breath, because sometimes you just go over your head in your fandom. Being a nerdy individual, myself, I completely understand having interests that many other people may not have (for instance, Tolkien still fits into this category, Doctor Who, not so much any more). It is normal to have special interests -- like ours in Tolkien -- but when one takes those interests too far, the result is often frightening, even to the most hardened nerds. Personally, when I joined the Downs, I was so very obsessed, because I couldn't talk to anyone about my new love. My thirteen-year-old self would have married LotR if these books were a person. Now that I have a bit of perspective, I have been weaning myself off of my obsessive traits, because I see how damaging it is to be such an individual. I still love Tolkien, I still love Lord of the Rings, I still have a happy feeling every time I visit the Barrow-Downs (even though for a while I got no joy out of it), but I understand now why my family would look at me funny and feel ashamed for knowing me, and I wasn't even to the realm of dangerously obsessive yet. It is quite a thought. . .
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The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.
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#27 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,360
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Wow, that is really scary.
I have been in a similar situation before, when all I did one summer was reread LOTR over and over. My parents were very concerned about me and I couldn't figure out why. They need not have been; even LOTR eventually gets dull once you've learned it by heart, and I've found the Downs so I could express my interest for Tolkien in ways other than reading the same book. And for another year or so my parent's didn't even know I'm still interested in Tolkien (because they did not know about the Downs). Now, I would say I'm not obsessed with Tolkien in RL. I like him very much, but I'm not obsessed. I'm obsessed with him on the Downs (which is the point). However, in RL I'm obsessed with the Downs, because it's such a part of my daily life now.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#28 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: The Elvenking's Halls
Posts: 425
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LOL. You mean watch.
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"In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit..." "'Well, I'm back.' said Sam." |
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#29 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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It mellows eventually. Hopefully. If you are lucky, it never leaves you. I've now grown long in the tooth enough to be feel comfortable criticising Tolkien or things in his writing without feeling like a traitor and I think this is good. A pinch of cynicism is always useful. Heaping scorn on the things you love is weird though, and that's something in Geek World that does not tally with me. There's nothing like a proper Geek Out though. Since coming out of the closet as Geek I love getting kicks from pure childlike excitement at a new TV series/book/film. I don't know why people criticise, I think it's jealousy because let's be frank, there's not a lot of fun to be had about a new range of mortgages or golf clubs or wines, or other such boring middle aged fare.
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Gordon's alive!
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#30 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,455
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However my pro-obsession argument is that while I may have spent time re reading Tolkien I could have used reading other books but I have been motivated to learn so much other stuff because my interest has been in part piqued by Tolkien directly or indirectly. I was probably one of the few in my cohort who was really enthusiastic about the linguistics component of our degree course, then there was the astronomy evening class and the herbalism... ok I am probably never going to have to kill a troll but as a mental exercise working out how much gold you would need to leaf the roof of edoras and its value in prime horseflesh for a RPG proposal is stretching... let alone the mythology and history (for some reason I only seem to have learned about the Industrial Revolution at school). What do you know of Tolkien if you only Tolkien know?
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#31 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Treetops, C/O Great Smials
Posts: 5,035
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Arrggghh! I'm trying to remember what that's a paraphrase of.
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"Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always." |
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#32 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,455
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Kipling though I had forgotten... And what should they know of England who only England know?--
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#33 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Treetops, C/O Great Smials
Posts: 5,035
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That's it! I was only reading it the other week, although I may have been reading someone else quoting it.
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"Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always." |
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#34 | ||
Mighty Quill
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Walking off to look for America
Posts: 2,230
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The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.
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#35 | |
Mighty Quill
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Walking off to look for America
Posts: 2,230
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Ack! Double-post, but I didn't see this earlier.
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The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.
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