Bombadil: One of the Blue Wizards?

[TheLostPilgrim]

A lot of theories have been offered up as to what exactly Tom Bombadil was. Some say he was an Ainur, others say simply a spirit, others say a living manifestation of Middle Earth (basically like a "Father Nature"), and some speculate he might have been an incarnation of The One. I don't believe Tolkien himself ever came to a final decision as to what the nature of Tom Bombadil was. Is it possible--if unlikely--that perhaps he was one of the two Blue Wizards who came to Middle Earth and whose fates are never spoken of? Perhaps like Radagast, Bombadil was one of the Wizards, but became so enamoured of the world, the plants and trees, that he forgot his mission, indeed forgot all of importance; As the Brown became a lover of birds and animals, Bombadil became a lover of the Earth, it's plants, trees, nature in general.

Probably a silly thought, but he is one of the most fascinating creatures in all of Middle Earth, and he seems to have held some powers which were only seen by supernatural beings like the Istari.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Welcome to the 'Downs, TheLostPilgrim!

And it is an interesting idea that you propose. Especially because it is so unusual - combining two of the big mysteries of Middle-Earth into one. However, probably you are right in that it is very unlikely for Tom to be one of the Blue Wizards. In the Unfinished Tales there is quite a bit of the talk about the two Blue Wizards, even their names are told, and it is said they both disappeared in the East.

That is not to say that if you wished, you could still interpretate it however you wish. I don't think the possibility is entirely unimaginable. One of the Wizards could have changed his name for the public (or simply adopted a name given to him by others, like Hobbits) and retreated into the Old Forest. But "objectively judging", Tom most likely was not one of the Blue Wizards - at least clearly not in Tolkien's mind, anyway.

[Alfirin]

One of the big problems I see with this theory, novel as it is, is the fact that Tom seems immune to the power of the ring (indeed, the only being in ME who seems to be). Given that Saruman, who claims to be the most powerful of the Istari is assumed to be corruptible by the ring (he's certainly corrupted by his desire for it) and Gandalf, who probably is the most powerful of the Istari (especially in his white form) is corruptible by it (and least, he assumes himself to be) I have a hard time imagining that either Alatar or Pallando who prove to be so immune to it.

[blantyr]

This is an interesting thought, but it doesn't seem to fit what Elrond says of him at the Council. I also have trouble thinking of Bombadil as a liar. If Tom says he is oldest and fatherless, I'd take him at his word, which leaves me fumbling for a variation of the incarnation of Eru theory.

[Inziladun]

Alfirin has a good point.

Also, from the words of Elrond regarding Tom, I think a Bombadil-Istari connection unlikely.

'But I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older than the old.'

FOTR The Council of Elrond

Since the Istari had only come to Middle-earth in the Third Age, it's difficult to see one like Elrond, born in the latter part of the First Age, referring to one of the Wizards in that manner.

x/d with blantyr making a similar observation.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Since the Istari had only come to Middle-earth in the Third Age, it's difficult to see one like Elrond, born in the latter part of the First Age, referring to one of the Wizards in that manner.

True. He refers to TB like that, but not in any similar way to Gandalf whom he knows personally very well - and if TB was of the same kind as Gandalf, you could surely seek for parallels.

[Galadriel55]

Personally, I'm at peace thinking that I'm not meant to know TB's identity. He is, and that's all I need to know.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Personally, I'm at peace thinking that I'm not meant to know TB's identity. He is, and that's all I need to know.

But wild speculation is so much fun!

I think I'm now partial to this idea. It makes perfect sense.

[Legolas]

Even with as much ambiguity that surrounds both the Ithryn Luin and Tom Bombadil, I think we know enough to rule out a connection.

The blue wizards arrived either with the other three wizards in the Third Age or in the Second Age with Glorinfdel before meandering into the east. Bombadil, on the other hand, was called "oldest" and "fatherless." He came before the rivers, trees, Kings, etc. per his own word - even "before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

Bombadil's immunity and indifference to the Ring (and Gandalf's familiarity with this) is also a sign to me. That's usually used as evidence that he wasn't a Maia of any sort, Istar or otherwise.

At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf reckons that "if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away. Such things have no hold on his mind."

Saruman was obviously obsessed with obtaining the Ring and its power. Sauron needed it back. Gandalf rejected taking it from Frodo for fear of becoming like Sauron. I think we can expect that Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando would all struggle similarly; the Ring would affect anyone and everyone.

'No!' cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. 'With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.' His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. 'Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great, for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.' (Book 1, Chapter II 'The Shadow Of The Past')

Well, anyone but Tom.

Then Tom put the Ring round the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight. For a moment the hobbits noticed nothing strange about this. Then they gasped. There was no sign of Tom disappearing!

Tom laughed again, and then he spun the Ring in the air - and it vanished with a flash. Frodo gave a cry - and Tom leaned forward and handed it back to him with a smile. (Book 1, Chapter VII 'In The House Of Tom Bombadil')

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Personally, I'm at peace thinking that I'm not meant to know TB's identity. He is, and that's all I need to know.

Three cheers!

"He is the Master of wood, water, and hill."

Tolkien was pretty adamant that "...even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)." Of course, we can always continue speculation.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think I'm now partial to this idea. It makes perfect sense.

Are you serious or is this yet another joke I don't get?

(I remember a similar idea being discussed and abandoned on a different thread, but there are so many TB threads by now I can't remember which)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Are you serious or is this yet another joke I don't get?

Let's just say that site has been a great source of Tolkien humor over the years.

[Sarumian]

As I remember, Tolkien mentions him in The Silmarillion. He says, that at the time when ME lied in darkness lit by stars only and children of Eru woke up he was walking here and there...

My opinion is that Bombadil is the first Stuart of ME, he was left behind by Vallar when they left to the West in order to keep eye on ME and guide first elves (and may be men). His ability to give orders to trees, to make roads in the wood can be useful to direct elves to the West. Later he retired to a small corner of ME and kept it unchanged as a kind of national park

When Gandalf says they are alike, I believe, he means the stuartship. Bombadil's powers make me think he was a Maia.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

As I remember, Tolkien mentions him in The Silmarillion. He says, that at the time when ME lied in darkness lit by stars only and children of Eru woke up he was walking here and there...

That sounds more like Tom speaking of himself to the Hobbits.

'When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'

FOTR In the House of Tom Bombadil

Bombadil is not mentioned in The Silmarillion.

Originally Posted by Sarumian

My opinion is that Bombadil is the first Stuart of ME, he was left behind by Vallar when they left to the West in order to keep eye on ME and guide first elves (and may be men). His ability to give orders to trees, to make roads in the wood can be useful to direct elves to the West. Later he retired to a small corner of ME and kept it unchanged as a kind of national park

If Tom was a "steward" though, he doesn't seem to have had any success with "guiding" the Eldar. The Vala Oromë was the first to contact them.

No, Gandalf speaks of him as a "moss-gatherer". To me that means he had no active, intended role in the fates of the denizens of ME, at least in the eyes of the Valar. My own idea is that he could indeed have been an Ainu who entered Eä very early on, and was content to merely observe the unfolding of the Themes.
If, as I think, Ungoliant was a spirit of the same nature following her own agenda, I see no reason why it couldn't have been so with Tom.

When his path crossed that of Frodo and Co. though, Bombadil recognized that the meeting wasn't a random event.

'Did I hear you calling? Nay, I did not hear: I was busy singing. Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you.'

So, he implies there was a plan, but it wasn't his. He was the master of himself, yet he still saw there was a greater force than he.
That says to me that while Tom had been allowed by the Maker to do his own thing in Middle-earth, he was still used to accomplish things not of his own design.

I suppose what I mean to say is that I see Bombadil as having no particular agenda. He just was, and seems to have had a pretty idyllic existence.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Bombadil is not mentioned in The Silmarillion.

Totally agree, it's Istari, who were mentioned there.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If Tom was a "steward" though, he doesn't seem to have had any success with "guiding" the Eldar. The Vala Oromë was the first to contact them.

I did not mean contact, I rather meant he could do some arrangements secretly. And gathering some information for Valar. He could also be on a special mission from Eru.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

No, Gandalf speaks of him as a "moss-gatherer". To me that means he had no active, intended role in the fates of the denizens of ME, at least in the eyes of the Valar. My own idea is that he could indeed have been an Ainu who entered Eä very early on, and was content to merely observe the unfolding of the Themes.
If, as I think, Ungoliant was a spirit of the same nature following her own agenda, I see no reason why it couldn't have been so with Tom.

Gandalf says: he IS a moths-gatherer, that doesn't mean he always was. I think he is close to the soul of ME as someone who always was there, and he helps ME to keep its identity waterer changes it goes through. He preserves the sense of living their. And I believe this is the fate of ME that they were talking about in the end. But I still think that he could have been a secret supervisor over first children of Eru and a kind of gardener of their forest who retired when they became ready to be on there own.

I do not insist on this, I just like the idea. Yours is similarly good for me. He is enigma.

[Lalwendë]

No, I don't think Bombadil was one of the blue wizards. However, it's not a silly idea as part of the function of him is to serve as an enigma, to enrich the world Tolkien built and you may hang what you will on him. If Tolkien had not included Tom then the books would have been all the worse for it - there are many things in our world that are hard or even impossible to explain and if Tolkien had left everything easy to explain then it would be a flat and dull experience.

I have my own ideas like anyone else.

I've at times thought that Tom might be an embodiment of Eru, an idea drawn from the clues that he is 'the eldest' and when Goldberry describes him to Frodo simply as "He is".

Who are you, Master?' he asked.
'Eh, what?' said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. 'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river nd the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'

However, I'm not so sure about that now. I do think of Eru as a bit tricksy but maybe Tom is too tricksy...

Anyway, it all brings me back to my thoughts some seven years ago about the Rings, about Sanwe and about the Fea and Hroa. The biggest clue perhaps to Tom is when he puts on the One ring and does not disappear.

'Show me the precious Ring!' he said suddenly in the midst of the He cle story: and Frodo, to his own astonishment, drew out the chain from his pocket, and unfastening the Ring handed it at once to Tom.
It seemed to grow larger as it lay for a moment on his big brown-skinned hand. Then suddenly he put it to his eye and laughed. For a second the hobbits had a vision, both comical and alarming, of his bright blue eye gleaming through a circle of gold. Then Tom put the Ring around the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight. For a moment the hobbits noticed nothing strange about this. Then they gasped. There was no sign of Tom disappearing!

Tom laughed again, and then he spun the Ring in the air--and it vanished with a flash. Frodo gave a cry--and Tom leaned forward and handed it back to him with a smile.

And Tom also knows where Frodo is when wearing the ring:

'Hey there!' cried Tom, glancing towards him with a most seeing look in his shining eyes. 'Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil's not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring! Your hand's more fair without it. Come back! Leave your game and sit down beside me! We must talk a while more, and think about the morning. Tom must teach the right road, and keep your feet from wandering.'

Tom isn't affected by the ring, nor does he think of it as much more than a frivolous trinket. Does he know of it through gossip with neighbours outside the Forest?

So it gets me thinking again about how the Ring (and other rings) works and why it does not work the same with Tom. I believe that one purpose of the One Ring and the seven and nine rings was to work on breaking the barrier of the hroa and gaining control of the bearers' minds through sanwe. In the case of the nine rings, they had a devastating effect and stripped Men of their hroar, and the rings then had a 'binding' effect upon them - effectively that their physical being was removed and replaced only with what those rings gave them. I think the seven were intended to work this way but were not effective, given that Dwarves had a different origin and were a race apart.

The One ring, in my opinion, has the effect on a mortal (Man or Hobbit) of stripping the hroa away in some temporary way and instead binding them with the Ring itself. Their mind is laid entirely bare to those with the necessary power/skill to probe it. And overuse of the One ring also has the effect of gradually weakening the hroa as it is made to exist far longer than it ought - see the terrible effects on Gollum. Others, such as Maiar and Elves are terrified of the effects of it - because they know it will have bad effects on them personally, or because they know what it will give them the ability to do? That's a good question...and worth bearing in mind the contrast between Gandalf and Saruman in their attitudes.

Tom has no fear (that's not to say he has no fea ). If he is a Maia, then he must have an incredible strength to be able to wear it without showing fear or greed and toss it aside. It's a possibility that he is a Maia, on an equal footing with Sauron, as he is able to see Frodo while he wears it.

But my favourite theory is that he is something apart, something older and more elemental, and tied to Middle-earth itself right from the creation of it. Gandalf says he is a "moss gatherer" which hints at 'stone' of you think of the old saying. He is also like the air if you think of his singing. His wife is the "river daughter", hinting at water. His neighbour is Old Man Willow, which of course is wood. Tom, in my favourite theory, is simply part of the fabric of Middle-earth, and beyond frivolous concerns such as Necromancer's Rings.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But my favourite theory is that he is something apart, something older and more elemental, and tied to Middle-earth itself right from the creation of it. Gandalf says he is a "moss gatherer" which hints at 'stone' of you think of the old saying. He is also like the air if you think of his singing. His wife is the "river daughter", hinting at water. His neighbour is Old Man Willow, which of course is wood. Tom, in my favourite theory, is simply part of the fabric of Middle-earth, and beyond frivolous concerns such as Necromancer's Rings.

I like your entire line of reasoning Lal, excellent. I would take it one step further. As I've said previously, Bombadil is Tolkien's jest, and not necessarily a private joke, because the professor made reference to him all along: Tom is the manifestation of the Oxfordshire countryside Tolkien remembered from his youth, and Tolkien stressed the very concept of Bombadil was important beyond the scope of Middle-earth; in addition, Tom is the "eldest" because he existed before The Lord of the Rings was ever conceived by the author (as a stuffed toy in his children's bedroom, and as a character in his own set of poems).

Not Eru, not a Maia, not anything directly attributable to Middle-earth (ergo the One Ring has no affect or hold on him), he is a character outside of time inserted into a story because he amused the author, and the author said as much. And Tolkien must be laughing somewhere at the endless scholarly debate his jest has engendered.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Not Eru, not a Maia, not anything directly attributable to Middle-earth (ergo the One Ring has no affect or hold on him), he is a character outside of time inserted into a story because he amused the author, and the author said as much. And Tolkien must be laughing somewhere at the endless scholarly debate his jest has engendered.

I agree that Lal's line of thought is certainly not out of the realm of the possible.

I do want to point out though that Bombadil as an Ainu would not be affected by the One, having an inherently greater power than its Maia maker.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

... in addition, Tom is the "eldest" because he existed before The Lord of the Rings was ever conceived by the author (as a stuffed toy in his children's bedroom, and as a character in his own set of poems).

Not Eru, not a Maia, not anything directly attributable to Middle-earth (ergo the One Ring has no affect or hold on him), he is a character outside of time inserted into a story because he amused the author, and the author said as much. And Tolkien must be laughing somewhere at the endless scholarly debate his jest has engendered.

Heh, indeed! Tom could be one of the most 'in' of in-jokes ever committed to paper. A critic who was fond of post-modernism and all that malarkey could have a field day exploring this from the angle of authorial intervention. Of course, if Tolkien did intend Tom this way then he made a thoroughly good job of it as he fits right in and the sense, for the reader, is worlds apart from the sorts of intrusions you find in The French Lieutenant's Woman for example.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I do want to point out though that Bombadil as an Ainu would not be affected by the One, having an inherently greater power than its Maia maker.

But would being an Ainu mean that? There's a quote somewhere (a comment made by Gandalf or Elrond) that Tom too would suffer should Sauron succeed in his aims, which suggests he is not part of the hierarchy we know about. He's not logical and doesn't 'fit' neatly. The question is - would he too suffer because he is not an Ainu or in spite of him being an Ainu?

Here's another thing - if he is one of the Ainur or Maiar then Tom is pretty much going to be tied to his physical form in the same way as Melian, Morgoth, and a host of others. He eats and drinks, I think he smokes, and he has a wife. Not sure what this means yet though...Hmmm...

But I think, in his own lovely words, Tom tells us that he was here before anyone, even anything, in Middle-earth. I have a suspicion that in some way, he might have been 'houseless'

Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?

That line makes me think of the words spoken to Eowyn when the Nazgul threatens her, "He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shriveled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye." It's equally chilling, speaking of extreme and almost unending loneliness.

But it was not an unpleasant loneliness to Tom. It was just how it was when he first lived in Middle-earth:

He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But would being an Ainu mean that? There's a quote somewhere (a comment made by Gandalf or Elrond) that Tom too would suffer should Sauron succeed in his aims, which suggests he is not part of the hierarchy we know about. He's not logical and doesn't 'fit' neatly. The question is - would he too suffer because he is not an Ainu or in spite of him being an Ainu?

Hm, you're right. Indeed Gandalf (who to me is the voice of Tolkien in the books) does note that Tom lacked the power to defeat Sauron. That would point away from the Ainu idea, I think.

Also, having finally acquired HOME #1, I recall that in the early drafts of LOTR, Farmer Maggott was to have been related to Bombadil in some way. That would have take away from Tom's singularity in the ME cosmology.

If Tom was not Eru, then it follows he must have been some other sort of created being. Would Eru have made a unique creature like Tom for some opaque purpose? What would that purpose have been? Bombadil was known to some of the Elves, Dwarves, and Men, who had all given him names at some point, but his actual contributions to ME history appear to be negligible. And hobbits, who lived next door to him, were entirely (as far as we are told) unaware of his existence.

Or, was Tom (with Goldberry too, perhaps) part of some other race that was largely unknown to Middle Earth's primary historians, the Eldar? It's possible, at least. After all, hobbits themselves flew under the radar of the majority of ME's denizens for countless years. And to add fuel to the fire, could Beorn have been some sort of "half-Bombadil"?


*I do of course know the RL reason for Tom's appearance in the books; Tolkien made that quite clear in letter and other writings. But I do love wild speculation whenever I can find a cause for it.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Also, having finally acquired HOME #1, I recall that in the early drafts of LOTR, Farmer Maggott was to have been related to Bombadil in some way. That would have take away from Tom's singularity in the ME cosmology. . . .
Or, was Tom (with Goldberry too, perhaps) part of some other race that was largely unknown to Middle Earth's primary historians, the Eldar? It's possible, at least.

I'm also a recent (well, within the last two years) convert to the early HoMe books. BoLT, vol 1 has this early version of the Coming of the Valar. (And this is related to a paper I wrote last summer about the Bombadils.)

Originally Posted by BoLT, vol 1, p. 660

About them [ie, the Yavanna and Aule] fared a great host who are the sprites of trees and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve. These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great: yet must they not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making, so that it is for the most part a play for them; but the Eldar are of the world and love it with a great and burning love, and are wistful in all their happiness for that reason.

Of this passage, Christopher Tolkien comments:

Originally Posted by Notes to the Coming of the Valar, BoLT, I, p. 80

Particularly interesting is the passage concering the host of lesser spirits who accompanied Aule andPalurien, from which one sees how old is the conception of the Eldar as quite dissimilar in essential nature from 'brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns', since the Eldar are 'of the world' and bound to it, whereas those others are beings from before the world's making. In the later work there is no trace of any such explanation of the 'pixie' element in the world's population: the Maiar are little referred to and certainly not said to include such beings as 'sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve.'

It seems to me that Tom and Goldberry could very well be such as sing amid the grass (well, Tom sings amid the trees) and chant among the standing corn (Goldberry dances in the grass).

Christopher Tolkien does not say when Tolkien Sr. made the changes to the Silm material, but it certainly seems to me that there is much in the enigmatic Tom and Goldberry that fits this early concept of fays who existed before the world was made. That would certainly explain the point about Tom's age.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Tolkien via Bethberry

About them [ie, the Yavanna and Aule] fared a great host who are the sprites of trees and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve. These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great: yet must they not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making, so that it is for the most part a play for them; but the Eldar are of the world and love it with a great and burning love, and are wistful in all their happiness for that reason.

That's lovely (you can always encounter something in Tolkien that catches your eye differently...amazing) and makes me want to go and read this part through again for myself. And makes me think of certain folk songs, themselves based on folk tales, such as John Barleycorn - where the crop itself is personified. No doubting that Tolkien of course knew these songs and knew more than most about the old folktales, and genus loci.

There's an urge to try and explain/understand and categorise for Tolkien fans and it's just not possible when Tolkien threw in aspects that do not fit into any hierarchy. Makes me think of how there has always been a blurring of boundaries, certainly for the most ordinary of people, between the pre-Christian and the more modern world - the former being chaotic in nature, the latter more structured. That's reflected in what Tolkien wrote down, throwing us characters like Tom along with Elves, packaged (more or less neatly) into 'castes', and having to be taught their place in a world that also included Maiar and Ainur.

But anyway, I like to at least try to explain/understand, even if the urge to categorise is less strong for me These sprites of nature, and Tom himself, are all very fond of singing and chanting - and the world was created with Music. I have to think they have something to do with how the world was crafted, it's too nice an idea to ignore!

Amazing though...Tolkien's creation was a kind of Faerie, and within it, he created another Faerie...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

That's lovely (you can always encounter something in Tolkien that catches your eye differently...amazing) and makes me want to go and read this part through again for myself. And makes me think of certain folk songs, themselves based on folk tales, such as John Barleycorn - where the crop itself is personified. No doubting that Tolkien of course knew these songs and knew more than most about the old folktales, and genus loci.

I've recently been reading on folk and fairy tales--the collection actually mentions Tolkien's essay OFS!--and am intrigued about just how much Tolkien knew but the ideas are still percolating (or perhaps I should say brewing).

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But anyway, I like to at least try to explain/understand, even if the urge to categorise is less strong for me These sprites of nature, and Tom himself, are all very fond of singing and chanting - and the world was created with Music. I have to think they have something to do with how the world was crafted, it's too nice an idea to ignore!

It seems to me to offer an explanation of why the Ring has no effect on Tom. He "was" before the world began and before Melkor brought evil/discord into the music, so quite possibly Tom has no concept of evil. He just can't recognise it or appreciate it or understand it. He is pure innocence.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Amazing though...Tolkien's creation was a kind of Faerie, and within it, he created another Faerie...

Shhh! You must come and hear my paper. Or one of them at any rate.

[Lalwendë]

And look at the relationships he has with Old Man Willow and with Goldberry. OMW is really sinister and almost consumes the Hobbits, but is not treated as evil by Tom, just as a wild thing that needs singing to in order to be tamed. Goldberry is the daughter of the river and has to be brought offerings of water lillies to keep her content over the winter months. 'Evil' doesn't seem to figure in Tom's world, things just 'are'. That really is innocent.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Hm, you're right. Indeed Gandalf (who to me is the voice of Tolkien in the books) does note that Tom lacked the power to defeat Sauron. That would point away from the Ainu idea, I think.

Maiar and Valar are kinds of Ainur, aren't them? I would say Bombadil shows powers comparable to those of a Maia. If we opt for the idea Bombadil is an Ainu, we have to decide if he came into the world with the host of Valar, participated the creation and stays in ME since they left, or he came independently and did not take part in the creation, just watched it. In the first case he either was left for some purpose or simply defected. He well may belong to those other orders of creatures mentioned, but, again, his powers are similar to those of a maia and Gandalf for some reasons makes the comparison.

I wouldn't say Bombadil doesn't belong to ME. In my view he belongs to it more than all other creatures living there, as they are there only temporarily (no matter for how long) he is the older one and the last one to stay. He is well aware of what's going on there. He is there on purpose, if Eru ever existed

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Maiar and Valar are kinds of Ainur, aren't them? I would say Bombadil shows powers comparable to those of a Maia. If we opt for the idea Bombadil is an Ainu, we have to decide if he came into the world with the host of Valar, participated the creation and stays in ME since they left, or he came independently and did not take part in the creation, just watched it. In the first case he either was left for some purpose or simply defected. He well may belong to those other orders of creatures mentioned, but, again, his powers are similar to those of a maia and Gandalf for some reasons makes the comparison.

I meant Bombadil as an Ainu comparable to the Valar. Bur it seems clear that he entered Arda alone, not with the them, and had aims quite different from theirs. However, his lacking the power to defeat Sauron the Maia would seem to put him at at a lower, or at best equal, level of creation than Sauron

Which leads back to Gandalf, and him being the only one who really seems to have a clue about who Tom really was. Maybe Gandalf merely knew him to be a fellow Maia who had come to Middle-earth on his own long before the awakening of the Elves, like Melian and (I think) Ungoliant.

[leapofberen]

Bombadil aside, Tolkien reckoned that the Blue Wizards fell as Saruman did in one of his many letters (211 in Letters, though perhaps he was not certain...

[They were as] Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were [the far East of ME]. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

That seems to run awry of the nature of Bombadil, both within LOTR and Tolkien's other letters. Not to mention the extreme geographic differences of the Blue Wizards and Bombadil throughout the Third Age.

From a completely personal pov, I obtain the sense that Bombadil is simply too ancient, unaffected, earthy and aloof to have been one of the Istari sent to Middle Earth. Besides, Gandalf goes to see him at the end of The Return stating that while he has been a stone doomed to roll, Bombadil has been a quote:

moss gatherer...but my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.

This seems to say to me that Gandalf held Bombadil in a regard unlike that of the other Istari anyhow.