How would you know?

[morwen edhelwen]

OK, let's pretend that Tolkien really did translate an old book into English and used this as the basis for "The Hobbit" and "LOTR". He was a linguist and philologist and knew a lot about words, languages and their origins. From the idea that The Hobbit, LOTR and Sil are translated... how would he know for sure that he was really dealing with an ancient language and not with an elaborate hoax? Does anyone have an idea how? -Morwen.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

OK, let's pretend that Tolkien really did translate an old book into English and used this as the basis for "The Hobbit" and "LOTR". He was a linguist and philologist and knew a lot about words, languages and their origins. From the idea that The Hobbit, LOTR and Sil are translated... how would he know for sure that he was really dealing with an ancient language and not with an elaborate hoax? Does anyone have an idea how? -Morwen.

Good question!

The answer is that to fool Tolkien the hoaxer would have needed to have known even more about ancient languages and philology than Tolkien himself did. Not likely, considering the amount of effort required to produce such an elaborate hoax in the first place!

Even assuming that someone with more knowledge than Tolkien existed, and we'd be talking about no more than a handful of people at most, the odds of any of them being able to create such an imaginative work in a made-up language is virtually zero. In my opinion, of course.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Good question!

The answer is that to fool Tolkien the hoaxer would have needed to have known even more about ancient languages and philology than Tolkien himself did. Not likely, considering the amount of effort required to produce such an elaborate hoax in the first place!

Even assuming that someone with more knowledge than Tolkien existed, and we'd be talking about no more than a handful of people at most, the odds of any of them being able to create such an imaginative work in a made-up language is virtually zero. In my opinion, of course.

Interestingly, there are precedents in factual history. To my knowledge, the most famous one would be the Voynich manuscript - an illuminated codex presumably written in the 15th or 16th century, in an unknown, yet undeciphered script in a yet unidentified language. Philologists and scientists are still debating whether it is a cypher text, an elaborate forgery or the work of a dedicated renaissance conlanger. (For all we know, it could even be the Red Book of another Forgotten Age of Middle-earth!)

This raises another interesting question, if we go with the translator conceit: How was Tolkien the translator able to read and understand the Red Book (which must have been written in Tengwar and probably Adûnaic or some hobbit dialect thereof) without knowing the language and script beforehand? This is, as far as I remember, never explained.

Perhaps he'd had an experience similar to that of Alwin Arundel Lowdham in The Notion Club Papers, who 'discovered' the languages (and part of the history) of Middle-earth in a series of dreams, before he (=Tolkien again) came across his copy of the Red Book. In this case, the book and his foreknowledge would have validated each other. (This would actually reflect quite nicely the real development of the Legendarium - he first invented the Elvish languages and then the history of their speakers.) Imagine his surprise when he found
he could read this unbelievably ancient manuscript in a language known to nobody else! "All these years I've thought I'd probably made it all up, and now this proves it's all true and really happened!"

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

This raises another interesting question, if we go with the translator conceit: How was Tolkien the translator able to read and understand the Red Book (which must have been written in Tengwar and probably Adûnaic or some hobbit dialect thereof) without knowing the language and script beforehand? This is, as far as I remember, never explained.

Hm, perhaps there is a Middle-earth version of the Rosetta Stone....

[Galin]

Tolkien had changed the game a bit if Elfwine dropped out, for then he had Old English to help him with the Silmarillion.

Is Old English certainly out? Ach my memory...


I know the runes and letters in The Lord of the Rings explain that JRRT translated the Red Book of Westmarch, but I would have to look at Appendix F more carefully to see if it's explicit that the translation went from actual Westron (and the ancient scripts) to modern English, with no help from an Old English translation.

I don't remember any Old English version mentioned in the context of the later 'Numenorean transmission' (or 'Imladris tradition' or whatever one might call it compared to the Elfwine transmission in general), but I mean is there something explicit enough that certainly rules out an Anglo-Saxon copy at some point?

I'll refresh my memory but someone will probably beat me to checking that out

I think I recall someone (Verlyn Flieger? Charles Noad?) speculating that Elfwine could still play a part in the later transmission, at some point anyway, despite that he seemed to fall away, or ultimately seemed to give way to the Imladris and Bilbo notion.

[morwen edhelwen]

about that because I have an incredibly elaborate story idea based on this translator conceit about a fantasy writer much like Tolkien, a former academic who actually does translate an old book that no-one knew wasn't made up...
So this is kind of what I was thinking -Morwen.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galin

Tolkien had changed the game a bit if Elfwine dropped out, for then he had Old English to help him with the Silmarillion.

Is Old English certainly out? Ach my memory...


I know the runes and letters in The Lord of the Rings explain that JRRT translated the Red Book of Westmarch, but I would have to look at Appendix F more carefully to see if it's explicit that the translation went from actual Westron (and the ancient scripts) to modern English, with no help from an Old English translation.

I don't remember any Old English version mentioned in the context of the later 'Numenorean transmission' (or 'Imladris tradition' or whatever one might call it compared to the Elfwine transmission in general), but I mean is there something explicit enough that certainly rules out an Anglo-Saxon copy at some point?

I'll refresh my memory but someone will probably beat me to checking that out

I think I recall someone (Verlyn Flieger? Charles Noad?) speculating that Elfwine could still play a part in the later transmission, at some point anyway, despite that he seemed to fall away, or ultimately seemed to give way to the Imladris and Bilbo notion.

I can't recall any mention of a preceding Old English translation in Appendix F; and since it gives the 'underlying' Westron forms of some Englished names (like Meriadoc Brandybuck = Kalimac Brandagamba or Rivendell = Karningul), the impression is that the Red Book was translated directly from the original Westron (not Adûnaic, as I said in my last post - sorry for the mix-up.)

On the other hand, the Dangweth Pengolod (written between 1951 and 1959, according to Christopher) is still explicitly addressed to Ælfwine - so apparently he wasn't dropped for good immediately after LotR was written, maybe not even after it was published; Eru only knows how long he continued to haunt the back of Tolkien's head, and how the Prof meant to reconcile him with the Imladris/Númenórean tradition. (Interestingly, it concludes with the words Sin quente Quendingoldo Elendilenna "Thus spoke Pengolod to Elendil". Now probably Elendil is in this context just Ælfwine's name translated into Quenya (both meaning 'Elf-friend'), but it still makes me wonder whether Tolkien may have left open a back door to replacing Ælfwine of England with Elendil of Númenor as the transmittor of this text - do you remember whether the Eldar of Tol Eressëa still visited Númenor in Elendil's lifetime?)

morwen, you should definitely write that story! But I'd reconsider about the book being made up - it could be disappointing to the reader to find out that your protagonist was fooled by a hoax. Alternatively, he could start with the assumption that it's all made up and translate it with the sole intention of mining it for future novel ideas, and in the end find out (how?) that it's genuine. I'd find that more interesting than the other way round, but that's only because I dislike it when a character I've sympathized with is made to look stupid. But it's your story, so that's up to you, of course.

[Galin]

Ah, found it. It was from Charles Noad's 'Of the Construction Of The Silmarillion' from Tolkien's Legendarium. Full context is best, as the following is only a very small part of his essay, but it ends...

'(...) Since the Hobbits would seem to occupy the same place that the 'faded' Elves did in the earliest formulations of the mythology, we could understand why Elfwine made his voyage in the first place. He would have known of the Hobbits as they survived in tenth-century Britain, and, learning from them about the Red Book and its contents (the single volume of Bilbo's and Frodo's memoirs), have been inspired by its hints about the histories of the Elves to seek the Straight Road to the West, there to learn the lore of the Elves and recover if for the race of Men.'

Charles Noad

Anyway, yes Elfwine was certainly around after The Lord of the Rings, and Elfwine And Dirhaval has been dated at c. 1958. Still, the Numenorean/Imladris/ Bilbo tradition is later of course. Anyway, I wonder if something like Mr. Noad's scenario above might have yet been possible -- with the further speculation that Elfwine perhaps ultimately provided an Old English version of the Red Book?

But I'm still waiting to fully read Appendix F again before I comment concerning that

[Pitchwife]

That's an intriguing speculation by Mr Noad, and I quite like it - would solve a lot of our problems here. Perhaps Tolkien had access to the Red Book in both the original language and Ælfwine's hypothetical Old English translation?

Originally Posted by Galin

Anyway, yes Elfwine was certainly around after The Lord of the Rings, and Elfwine And Dirhaval has been dated at c. 1958. Still, the Numenorean/Imladris/ Bilbo tradition is later of course.

Is it? I'm not sure when Tolkien came up with the idea of a Mannish/Numenorean tradition, but Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish are mentioned in the LotR Prologue (is that in the Second Edition only? I know I should check...except I'm too lazy at the moment), and 'extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo in Rivendell' in the last chapter of the narrative itself.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

That's an intriguing speculation by Mr Noad, and I quite like it - would solve a lot of our problems here. Perhaps Tolkien had access to the Red Book in both the original language and Ælfwine's hypothetical Old English translation?

Yes I think that's the idea: some copy of the RB and an OE version to help the modern translator (the notion based, at least, on what Mr. Noad wrote above).

Is it? I'm not sure when Tolkien came up with the idea of a Mannish/Numenorean tradition, but Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish are mentioned in the LotR Prologue (is that in the Second Edition only? (...) and 'extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo in Rivendell' in the last chapter of the narrative itself.

Good point, Bilbo was already writing according to the first edition (if I recall correctly the Note on the Shire Records was added to the second edition), so I should say 'Numenorean transmission' compared to Elfwine, even though I ultimately view Bilbo's translations as connected, a part of the former.

Going from memory here: Elfwine is mentioned often enough in the early 1950s phase, after The Lord of the Rings was written but not yet published, and as we see with Elfwine And Dirhaval, even as late as 1958.

I think the Numenorean/Mannish idea generally appears around the later 1950s and 1960s (we might include the Tolkien-published The Adventures of Tom Bombadil references here) -- but curiously there is at least one Numenorean-type reference connected to an abandoned typescript of the Annals of Aman, (or AAm* in Morgoth's Ring) which text Christopher Tolkien is inclined to think belongs to an earlier phase rather than later.

Anyway, the Elfwine references in the early 1950s concern texts relating to the Elder Days, and I'm not sure what Tolkien had in mind at this time, despite the published description in The Lord of the Rings surrounding Bilbo's work.

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I can't recall any mention of a preceding Old English translation in Appendix F; and since it gives the 'underlying' Westron forms of some Englished names (like Meriadoc Brandybuck = Kalimac Brandagamba or Rivendell = Karningul), the impression is that the Red Book was translated directly from the original Westron (not Adûnaic, as I said in my last post - sorry for the mix-up.)

On the other hand, the Dangweth Pengolod (written between 1951 and 1959, according to Christopher) is still explicitly addressed to Ælfwine - so apparently he wasn't dropped for good immediately after LotR was written, maybe not even after it was published; Eru only knows how long he continued to haunt the back of Tolkien's head, and how the Prof meant to reconcile him with the Imladris/Númenórean tradition. (Interestingly, it concludes with the words Sin quente Quendingoldo Elendilenna "Thus spoke Pengolod to Elendil". Now probably Elendil is in this context just Ælfwine's name translated into Quenya (both meaning 'Elf-friend'), but it still makes me wonder whether Tolkien may have left open a back door to replacing Ælfwine of England with Elendil of Númenor as the transmittor of this text - do you remember whether the Eldar of Tol Eressëa still visited Númenor in Elendil's lifetime?)

morwen, you should definitely write that story! But I'd reconsider about the book being made up - it could be disappointing to the reader to find out that your protagonist was fooled by a hoax. Alternatively, he could start with the assumption that it's all made up and translate it with the sole intention of mining it for future novel ideas, and in the end find out (how?) that it's genuine. I'd find that more interesting than the other way round, but that's only because I dislike it when a character I've sympathized with is made to look stupid. But it's your story, so that's up to you, of course.

Oh, I'm sorry! I didn't read what I posted! Silly me! I meant that no -one knew it WASN'T made up...

[Lastande Took]

Oooh, good thread! I don't have much to offer, though, because I know nothing about Elfwine or Old English translations of the Red Book. I've never heard about this before. Is it in the "History of Middle-earth", "Letters", or where?

Based on my (very) limited knowlege, perhaps Tolkien's copy of the Red Book had both Westron and Old English side-by-side, at least for some sections. I like the idea of him dreaming it as mentioned in the beginning of the thread. Seems the Valar are still alive and well. :P

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lastande Took

Oooh, good thread! I don't have much to offer, though, because I know nothing about Elfwine or Old English translations of the Red Book. I've never heard about this before. Is it in the "History of Middle-earth", "Letters", or where?

In The History of Middle-Earth we actually find Old English versions of some of the Annals for example (as written by Elfwine in ancient English), and Quenta Silmarillion at one point had a 'translator's note' which indicated that the histories here given in the English of the day were translated from the version of Elwine of Angelcynn.

Of course that's a very simplified summation of the scenario as it existed at one point (externally speaking), but we are only speculating as to whether or not Tolkien might later imagine that an Old English version of the Red Book existed to help with translation.

After somewhat quickly reading (most of) Appendix F, On Translation, to me it seems to give the impression that JRRT went from Westron to modern English, and one would further wonder why he did not mention any Old English version especially when he raises the matter of the language of the Rohirrim (as he used some Old English in representing the tongue of the Rohirrim).


I don't know if Tolkien himself would necessarily think that the phrasing in Appendix F might be too hard to get around, but I agree that The Notion Club Papers could provide a nice path here in any case.

[morwen edhelwen]

bump... hope I didn't kill this...

[Findegil]

Were would AElfwine go? And what would he learn there?

If he still came to Eressea it is most probably a kind of a Silmarillion that he brought back and not the story of the War of the Ring.

So what might Tolkien have owned to translate?

Probably he had a complete copy of the Red Book, including the volumes of 'Translaions from Elvish' that Bilbo made in Rivendell in Westron and in some kind of elvish script. In addition he might have had a 'Silmarillion' from AElfwine in Old English. Thus he could translate the later and gain some insight into elvish languages simply by the names and some battle cries and so on perserved by AElfwine. Now seeing the similarty of the story given in Bilbos translations to what he had got from AElfwine the good Professor together with his professional konwledge about languages probably was able to transscibe and translate what he found in the Red Book.

It does'nt seems to me so much harder than egyptian hyroglyphs.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galin]

If we can speculate concerning an Old English element in Elfwine, I still think it's easier for him to have translated the tale of the War of the Ring and Bilbo's translations into Old English...

... and after this task, now inspired to learn more and actually meet Elves, he sails off into the West -- maybe returning with some of the more purely Elvish-written sources to compare with the largely Mannish and Middle-earthian Elvish accounts of the Elder Days.

Thus Elfwine possibly returns with the legend of the Awakening of the Quendi for example, in which the Sun already exists when the Elves awaken -- though granted that was said to be preserved by the Sindar as well, in any event. Or a more purely Elvish account of the Downfall of Numenor perhaps (in which the world was always round, as the Elves of Aman teach in the Mannish account). Also, maybe more linguistic materials, or more detailed accounts of the doings in Aman that were not remembered in Numenor.

Or something

Although again, I'm not sure there is any indication that Tolkien imagined this as the scenario.

[morwen edhelwen]

Whoa! Thanks for all the replies! - Morwen.

[morwen edhelwen]

I wrote up a summary of the story idea in Word on my computer so I wouldn't forget it.