Balrog and the One ring

[Drognan]

Hello everyone,
I was wondering was Balrog able to "sense" One ring when it entered Moria, and was it the real reason for attack on Company?
Could Balrog use One ring?
Were orcs and goblins of Moria under his command?
What do You think?

[Eönwë]

Well, I think the short answer would be that yes, the Balrog could sense the One Ring. We are never given an exact reason for its presence, so I'll leave that to those better versed in the book-lore than I am.

The Balrog could use the One Ring, just as anyone else could, and since it is of simialr power to Gandalf, who we know could use its power fully, it seems likely that the Balrog could do likewise.

As for whether the Orcs were under its control, judging by the fact that at its presence all the Orcs were terrified of the 'ghâsh' (Orcish word for 'fire', in reference to the Balrog), I find it unlikely that they were under its command.



Also, welcome to the Barrow-Downs!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Drognan

I was wondering was Balrog able to "sense" One ring when it entered Moria, and was it the real reason for attack on Company?

First, to echo Eonwë, welcome to the Downs!

We are told in the books on more than one occasion that the Ring "called to those of evil bent; that is given in Unfinished Tales as one of the reasons Isildur and his company were attacked by the Orcs near the Gladden Fields where the Ring was lost. With that in mind, I do think the Balrog might have sensed the presence of the One, thought it may not have known what the Ring was, or what it did.

However, I don't think it was the Ring alone that caused the attack on the Fellowship in Moria; ie, I doubt that if they hadn't had the Ring with them that they would have been allowed to pass through. Pippin's dropping the rock into the well raised an alarm.

Originally Posted by Drognan

Could Balrog use One ring?

I don't see why it couldn't have.

Originally Posted by Drognan

Were orcs and goblins of Moria under his command?

I would say that in Moria at least, the ocs were obedient to it. They don't seem to answer to Sauron, at any rate. When the orcs of moria are seen in Rohan with forces if Isengard and the Red Eye bearing the captive hobbits, the Moria orcs aren't interested in anything but to kill for vengeance and return to the mines.

[Drognan]

More I think of it, more it seems to me like a carefull planed attack.
First, Watcher tries to grab Frodo and the Ring, after that blocks the gate and traps the Company inside. Company is allowed to proceed into Moria and then attacked when already tired from long walk in the dark.
First orcs attack and wear the defense, and then Master comes for prize.

Luckily orcs were unsuccsefull and Gandalf saves the Company.

[As for whether the Orcs were under its control, judging by the fact that at its presence all the Orcs were terrified of the 'ghâsh' (Orcish word for 'fire', in reference to the Balrog), I find it unlikely that they were under its command.
[/QUOTE]

It is odd that if orcs were so disturbed by fire and not under Balrog's control, why do they live so close to so terrifying neighbour. Dwarfs are gone, they could move on...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Drognan

More I think of it, more it seems to me like a carefull planed attack.
First, Watcher tries to grab Frodo and the Ring, after that blocks the gate and traps the Company inside. Company is allowed to proceed into Moria and then attacked when already tired from long walk in the dark.
First orcs attack and wear the defense, and then Master comes for prize.

I've actually toyed with the idea that the Balrog was the "spirit" of Caradhras, which sensed the One and wanted to drive them to enter the Mines. A theory is all it is, though.

Like Pippin dropping the stone into the well, alerting the orcs, Boromir disturbed the Watcher by throwing a rock into the lake. It's difficult to say whether the Company would have been attacked if they had not announced their presence so.

Originally Posted by Drognan

[As for whether the Orcs were under its control, judging by the fact that at its presence all the Orcs were terrified of the 'ghâsh' (Orcish word for 'fire', in reference to the Balrog), I find it unlikely that they were under its command.

It is odd that if orcs were so disturbed by fire and not under Balrog's control, why do they live so close to so terrifying neighbour. Dwarfs are gone, they could move on...

Well, the Orcs of the Red Eye were terrified of the Nazgûl, but still obeyed their commands. The orcs weren't necessarily afraid of fire, anyway. What of the goblins that set afire the trees in which Gandalf, Bilbo, and the Dwarves had climbed in The Hobbit?

And I think that when Gandalf overheard one of the orcs say ghâsh, they could simply have been talking about the plan to trap the Fellowship with the fire below. That doesn't mean they feared it.

[Boromir88]

Could the Balrog use the Ring? Yes. I suspect it could, in the sense that anyone could use the Ring.

Would? Is a bit of a trickier question. The Balrog had fled from Morgoth's service and taken up abode in the Misty Mountains. Where he seemed pretty content to just sleep deep beneath the world until Dwarves came hi-hoing down into his new home. Balrog and Orcs drive out dwarves. Balrog doesn't try to gain more power or control. He just goes back to the nice, dark place he found in the Misty Mountains. Until the Fellowship comes through, and yet again he's disturbed. Yet again, Balrog and orcs drive out the intruders. Only this time he gets into an all time epic battle with Gandalf.

The Ring tempts with supreme power. It tempts with the power of the bearer to overthrow Sauron and fulfill the bearer's deepest wishes. For Boromir it was being the savior of Gondor. For Sam it was to turn Gorgoroth into a garden. But the key link is, the Ring tempts with power, and the supreme power to defeat Sauron.

The Balrog had no interest in joining Sauron and had no interest in defeating Sauron. Quite frankly, the Balrog didn't care. He just wanted a nice, simple retirement under Moria. When Durin's Bane is disturbed out of retirement, his objective is to restore it by driving out the intruders.

So could the Balrog use the ring? Yes. Would Durin's Bane? I'd say no (but that is just imho )

[As for whether the Orcs were under its control, judging by the fact that at its presence all the Orcs were terrified of the 'ghâsh' (Orcish word for 'fire', in reference to the Balrog), I find it unlikely that they were under its command.

Durin's Bane did command the orcs. Which is not too surprising, since as Morgoth's greatest servants, the Balrogs were the captains of Morgoth's armies.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Could the Balrog use the Ring? Yes. I suspect it could, in the sense that anyone could use the Ring.

Would? Is a bit of a trickier question. The Balrog had fled from Morgoth's service and taken up abode in the Misty Mountains. Where he seemed pretty content to just sleep deep beneath the world until Dwarves came hi-hoing down into his new home. Balrog and Orcs drive out dwarves. Balrog doesn't try to gain more power or control. He just goes back to the nice, dark place he found in the Misty Mountains. Until the Fellowship comes through, and yet again he's disturbed. Yet again, Balrog and orcs drive out the intruders. Only this time he gets into an all time epic battle with Gandalf.

The Ring tempts with supreme power. It tempts with the power of the bearer to overthrow Sauron and fulfill the bearer's deepest wishes. For Boromir it was being the savior of Gondor. For Sam it was to turn Gorgoroth into a garden. But the key link is, the Ring tempts with power, and the supreme power to defeat Sauron.

The Balrog had no interest in joining Sauron and had no interest in defeating Sauron. Quite frankly, the Balrog didn't care. He just wanted a nice, simple retirement under Moria. When Durin's Bane is disturbed out of retirement, his objective is to restore it by driving out the intruders.

So could the Balrog use the ring? Yes. Would Durin's Bane? I'd say no (but that is just imho )

But of course he would! I completely agree with what you said: that he just wanted to have his nice, cozy, warm place away from everyone, not being bothered. You mentioned Samwise the Great Gardener, who never wanted anything, yet was still "approached" with the offer of making Mordor the loveliest garden. Only because he was a honest hobbit with the love for his master, he did not succumb. I don't want to underestimate Durin's Bane, but, you know what. And what about Gollum who wanted basically the same as The Balrog: to remain in his corner, hidden, yet also he was in the end having delusions about Great Gollum, eating fresh fish every day?

What would you define "use" the Ring? If by "use" you meant "generally use", as in, wear from time to time, then the answer is obviously yes even by just what you say: the Balrog could, say, use it to make himself invisible, hide from all Dwarves and Wizards and Orcs and just remain at peace - just like Gollum did; maybe from time to time use it to ambush and/or wipe with the Ring's power the intruders - just like Gollum did (I am referring to him strangling Orcs in the dark, but he was doing it for food, so Balrog might do that just to get rid of annoying people, for example).

But even if we meant "use" as (what I believe you had in mind) "use to become the new Dark Lord", then, I mean, sure. I would say "definite yes" even to that. Faced with that temptation - how many people, Maiar, etc, were able to resist the lure of the Ring, especially in case they put it on their finger at least once? Quite. Gandalf's warning about the Ring offering more power to the hands of the powerful ones is also definitely valid here. Therefore, I think I can very well imagine what the Ring would say to The Balrog, something along these lines:

"You can become greater than anybody... wipe out all the annoying Dwarves who woke you up... take control of all the Orcs... they can make you a King Under Your Own Mountain when they are at it... nobody will be able to contest you anyway... why don't you pay back to the Elves for destroying your original home in Utumno and Angband when you are at it... yes, all of them, they are all responsible, or their children, or kinsmen, anyway, you know that, they are all of the same kind, who cares... oh, and yes, definitely you should show Sauron. Remember how he always looked down at you, bossing you around, even though you are definitely as strong, no, stronger than him? It should have been you to be Melkor's right hand, not him. You would have done better, with you in his place, you would have won against the Valar! Let's pay him back for destroying your life! ..."

It is really easy to imagine the reasons. I would say, it is obvious that the Balrog would use The One Ring. And remember, the evil guys always want to use the One Ring, on top of everything.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

What would you define "use" the Ring? If by "use" you meant "generally use", as in, wear from time to time, then the answer is obviously yes even by just what you say: the Balrog could, say, use it to make himself invisible, hide from all Dwarves and Wizards and Orcs and just remain at peace - just like Gollum did; maybe from time to time use it to ambush and/or wipe with the Ring's power the intruders - just like Gollum did (I am referring to him strangling Orcs in the dark, but he was doing it for food, so Balrog might do that just to get rid of annoying people, for example).

But even if we meant "use" as (what I believe you had in mind) "use to become the new Dark Lord", then, I mean, sure. I would say "definite yes" even to that. Faced with that temptation - how many people, Maiar, etc, were able to resist the lure of the Ring, especially in case they put it on their finger at least once? Quite. Gandalf's warning about the Ring offering more power to the hands of the powerful ones is also definitely valid here. Therefore, I think I can very well imagine what the Ring would say to The Balrog, something along these lines:

"You can become greater than anybody... wipe out all the annoying Dwarves who woke you up... take control of all the Orcs... they can make you a King Under Your Own Mountain when they are at it... nobody will be able to contest you anyway... why don't you pay back to the Elves for destroying your original home in Utumno and Angband when you are at it... yes, all of them, they are all responsible, or their children, or kinsmen, anyway, you know that, they are all of the same kind, who cares... oh, and yes, definitely you should show Sauron. Remember how he always looked down at you, bossing you around, even though you are definitely as strong, no, stronger than him? It should have been you to be Melkor's right hand, not him. You would have done better, with you in his place, you would have won against the Valar! Let's pay him back for destroying your life! ..."

It is really easy to imagine the reasons. I would say, it is obvious that the Balrog would use The One Ring. And remember, the evil guys always want to use the One Ring, on top of everything.

I highly doubt that the Balrog wants/needs the Ring to do the first thing that you mention. It has enough power by itself to scare away almost everyone that bothers him - with the sole exception that cost it its life. I think that the second posibility is very probably, though. If the Balrog got hold of the Ring, he would use it without necessarily knowing what he is using. Like Bilbo and Gollum - they didn't know that a good part of Sauron's power was hidden in it, but they were given power proportionate to their stature. The Balrog could even possibly defeat Sauron for real with the Ring, if it didn't betray him.


As for the orcs - I think they were afraid to death of the Balrog, but that is what made them more obedient, imo.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I highly doubt that the Balrog wants/needs the Ring to do the first thing that you mention. It has enough power by itself to scare away almost everyone that bothers him - with the sole exception that cost it its life.

The first thing was of course more like an illustrative example. I meant "something like that" - the Balrog could use the Ring for some "simple tasks" of his "daily life". To use a parable, even though you could perfectly well just walk to your workplace, if you own a car, why not use it and drive there, right?

As for the orcs - I think they were afraid to death of the Balrog, but that is what made them more obedient, imo.

This is what I totally agree with and I wanted to say it already in the beginning when I first saw this conversation. I don't think they necessarily were subject to the Balrog, but if it happened, it would be like "aaaa, help, that scary fire-demon told me that we should attack the wizard! Let's do it or he will fry us alive!" or something like that. To be honest though, I think the Orcs acted on their own accord in Moria.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The first thing was of course more like an illustrative example. I meant "something like that" - the Balrog could use the Ring for some "simple tasks" of his "daily life". To use a parable, even though you could perfectly well just walk to your workplace, if you own a car, why not use it and drive there, right?

Ah, I get you now.

Originally Posted by Legate

This is what I totally agree with and I wanted to say it already in the beginning when I first saw this conversation. I don't think they necessarily were subject to the Balrog, but if it happened, it would be like "aaaa, help, that scary fire-demon told me that we should attack the wizard! Let's do it or he will fry us alive!" or something like that. To be honest though, I think the Orcs acted on their own accord in Moria.

Possibly something similar to the orcs of Cirith Ungol - though they were also under the power of Sauron and the nazgul. But for the most part they were on their own (as in without special supervision from "above"), trying to avoid having tea with Her Ladyship. They had some solutions - they built secret passages, and even left their comrades to go for supper just to please her and/or save their own orcish hide. So are the Moria orcs - for the most part living on their own, trying to not bother that big fiery monster, but doing his bidding whenever he says to avoid, as you said, being roasted alive. (Though I think the mere power that his will projects is enough to make any orc tremble - come on, they were afraid of a hobbit with a Ring!)

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc;663386"You can become greater than anybody... wipe out all the annoying Dwarves who woke you up... take control of all the Orcs... they can make you a King Under Your Own Mountain when they are at it... nobody will be able to contest you anyway... why don't you pay back to the Elves for destroying your original home in Utumno and Angband when you are at it... yes, all of them, they are all responsible, or their children, or kinsmen, anyway, you know that, they are all of the same kind, who cares... oh, and yes, [I

definitely [/I]you should show Sauron. Remember how he always looked down at you, bossing you around, even though you are definitely as strong, no, stronger than him? It should have been you to be Melkor's right hand, not him. You would have done better, with you in his place, you would have won against the Valar! Let's pay him back for destroying your life! ..."

You forgot one big one "be greater than Gothmog" (i.e. his superior). Add on possibly get back at the above (depending on when the Balrog fled to under the mountain, he may or may not be aware that 1. Gothmog is dead and 2. He is the last Balrog left.) if he thinks that Gothmog and the rest of the Balrogs are still around the idea of something that, in a pinch could protect him from thier wrath (he is a deserter, after all).
Now I', beginning to wonder if the ring could offer anything to tempt the watcher. what could it offer him/her (control of all the oceans, an infinite supply of fish?) could it tempt the watcher (the wather is evil, but I'm not sure if it's sentient.)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

You forgot one big one "be greater than Gothmog" (i.e. his superior). Add on possibly get back at the above (depending on when the Balrog fled to under the mountain, he may or may not be aware that 1. Gothmog is dead and 2. He is the last Balrog left.) if he thinks that Gothmog and the rest of the Balrogs are still around the idea of something that, in a pinch could protect him from thier wrath (he is a deserter, after all).

I think that you also need to add 3. That Sauron made the Ring and it will bend all to his will.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Now I', beginning to wonder if the ring could offer anything to tempt the watcher. what could it offer him/her (control of all the oceans, an infinite supply of fish?) could it tempt the watcher (the wather is evil, but I'm not sure if it's sentient.)

I think the Watcher was not tempted to posess the Ring for himself. He just felt something. Gandalf does make a note that he was going particularly for Frodo, which could easily point to the Ring. I think that his intentions were not to rule over lake and sea, but to grab at this unknown, potentially dangerous power. Though it's hard to tell.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Could the Balrog use the Ring? Yes. I suspect it could, in the sense that anyone could use the Ring.

Would? Is a bit of a trickier question. The Balrog had fled from Morgoth's service and taken up abode in the Misty Mountains. Where he seemed pretty content to just sleep deep beneath the world until Dwarves came hi-hoing down into his new home. Balrog and Orcs drive out dwarves. Balrog doesn't try to gain more power or control. He just goes back to the nice, dark place he found in the Misty Mountains. Until the Fellowship comes through, and yet again he's disturbed. Yet again, Balrog and orcs drive out the intruders. Only this time he gets into an all time epic battle with Gandalf.

The Ring tempts with supreme power. It tempts with the power of the bearer to overthrow Sauron and fulfill the bearer's deepest wishes. For Boromir it was being the savior of Gondor. For Sam it was to turn Gorgoroth into a garden. But the key link is, the Ring tempts with power, and the supreme power to defeat Sauron.

The Balrog had no interest in joining Sauron and had no interest in defeating Sauron. Quite frankly, the Balrog didn't care. He just wanted a nice, simple retirement under Moria. When Durin's Bane is disturbed out of retirement, his objective is to restore it by driving out the intruders.

So could the Balrog use the ring? Yes. Would Durin's Bane? I'd say no (but that is just imho )


Durin's Bane did command the orcs. Which is not too surprising, since as Morgoth's greatest servants, the Balrogs were the captains of Morgoth's armies.

This is a kinder, gentler balrog than I'm used to.

In the Council of Elrond, there was talk of sending the Ring back to Tom Bombadil, one individual so powerful that he can ignore the temptation of the ring and not be likely to go wild messing up the whole of Middle Earth.

Might they also have considered giving it to Durin's Bane? I mean, if all he wants to do is to be left alone in his hole in the ground, why not give him the Ring and let Sauron just try to take it away?

I'm not really serious about this option. Even a balrog might be tempted and corrupted by the Ring. I'm just not sure of Boromir88's understanding of balrog psychology

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'm not really serious about this option. Even a balrog might be tempted and corrupted by the Ring.

Even if the Balrog wouldn't be tempted (eg ifhis power excedes the Ring's) the Ring would still betray him and find a way to return to Sauron.

[Drognan]

OK, so Balrog would definitely grab the ring, probably would use it, uncertain is in which way would he project his power. One way is world dominance and next dark lord, and another is securing his home beneath Moria. And maybe both ways.

What do you think of the attack? Was it planned in advance? Did Golum warned orcs when he passed trough Moria? Would it happen if Pippin didn't throw all those stuff in the hole? Has he forced orcs on attack since he rang so obvious allarm. I mean, it would be suspicious if alarm rang, and no attack... Maybe orcs planned attack somewhere deeper in Moria?

I appologize for my bad english, it's not my primary language.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that you also need to add 3. That Sauron made the Ring and it will bend all to his will.

No I didn't forget that. If one auomatically assumes that anyone who posesses the ring will automatically go off and try to give it back to Sauron, then this whole discussion is sort of moot. We are told throughout the book that there are individuals who are powerful enough (i.e. Galadriel, probably Gandalf etc.) to be able to beat/destroy Sauron with the ring, it's just that the ring is so filled with Sauron's malevolence that anyone who did so would immediately place himself in Sauron's place and become a being as evil or more so. All I was doing was putting the Balrog on the same level. He is a Maiar, presumably (Gothmog certainly was) and was a near match to Gandalf, on a raw power level, so this seems reasonable to me.

I think the Watcher was not tempted to posess the Ring for himself. He just felt something. Gandalf does make a note that he was going particularly for Frodo, which could easily point to the Ring. I think that his intentions were not to rule over lake and sea, but to grab at this unknown, potentially dangerous power. Though it's hard to tell.

The real question i was asking (which may or may not be germane to the thread) is whether the Watcher in the water was a sentient, conscious creature, or just basically a mindless beast running on instinct. Yes the watcher seemed to be targeting Frodo, but there is the fact that Frodo is amount the (pysically) frailer members of the fellowship; it could simply be the predator l standard "go for the weakest one in the herd". I tend to assume that one of the few prerequisites of the rings being able to twist minds and wills is that the creature holding the ring has to have a mind to being with. If it didn't one would expect that, in the time that the ring was under the river it would have been "claimed" (eaten) by a fish, ot taken by a river crab into it's den etc.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Drognan

OK, so Balrog would definitely grab the ring, probably would use it, uncertain is in which way would he project his power. One way is world dominance and next dark lord, and another is securing his home beneath Moria. And maybe both ways.

Well, yes, I suppose so - if the Balrog found out / saw the Ring. If he didn't - I doubt it.

What do you think of the attack? Was it planned in advance? Did Golum warned orcs when he passed trough Moria? Would it happen if Pippin didn't throw all those stuff in the hole? Has he forced orcs on attack since he rang so obvious allarm. I mean, it would be suspicious if alarm rang, and no attack... Maybe orcs planned attack somewhere deeper in Moria?

I think it was like the equivalent of a fire drill in our world. It wasn't planned beforehand, but it was well prepared for the moment.

I appologize for my bad english, it's not my primary language.

You're not alone on this forum.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

The real question i was asking (which may or may not be germane to the thread) is whether the Watcher in the water was a sentient, conscious creature, or just basically a mindless beast running on instinct. Yes the watcher seemed to be targeting Frodo, but there is the fact that Frodo is amount the (pysically) frailer members of the fellowship; it could simply be the predator l standard "go for the weakest one in the herd". I tend to assume that one of the few prerequisites of the rings being able to twist minds and wills is that the creature holding the ring has to have a mind to being with. If it didn't one would expect that, in the time that the ring was under the river it would have been "claimed" (eaten) by a fish, ot taken by a river crab into it's den etc.

Well, it could have been a go for the weakest, but I think Gandalf meant specifically him, not any weak hobbit.

Also, although the Ring tempts only those with a mind, it takes control over nature around it as well. The Ring has a "mind", that's what matters.