I'm just wondering...... (Tolkien religion)

[TheBladeThatWasBroken]

...would the world of Tolkien be great enough for it to become a religion of its own in our society?

It could work, with the lengthy history and there's so many different gods and heroes...

what do you guys think?

<font size=1 color=339966>[Title edited by moderator for clarity]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:41 AM January 03, 2004: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

[Phervasaion]

It may work... But the people in the society would probebly be called mad and get locked up in jail or something. Unfortunately.

[Alatariel]

I'm not really quite sure how that would work...just because ME has its own history and myths does not mean it could be a religion.

there's so many different gods and heroes

actually, ME does not have a pantheon of gods - just one, Illuvatar. He is called different names by different peoples, but it is the same "god." Tolkien would be absolutely horrified at the idea of people starting a new religion based upon his works, as he was a devout christian. In order to make a religion based on ME, a lot of things would have to be made up, such as ceremonies, occupations for professional worshippers (ie. priests or clerics), significant symbols, etc. The result of any attempt at this would be decidedly anti-Tolkien.

[ElentariGreenleaf]

I intend to one day create a middle earth of my own! I shall buy an island, then invite all my friends!

But, seriously, I think it could work. Not necessarily as a religion, but definately as a way of life.

Down with electricity!!!

[DarkRose]

Well said, Alatariel.

I'm sure a few little LotR 'cults' have already sprouted up here and there, but none are taken seriously.

Methinks fantasy is fantasy and shouldn't be blown out of proportion. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Everdawn]

I dont think it could become a religion, becuase well, we know it was created by Tolkien, but i dont see why people couldnt live by the example of Tolkien's characters or by tolkien himself. (just hope that no one decides to follow Sauron or Morgoth's example) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

A religion of ME? No don't think that it would work, but I think that it could be used as a way of life. Seeing that a lot of the things we have in our society are also in ME important. But in the modern society it's not that common any more and in ME it is. I do have some friends who really live like Frodo and Sam, with their companionship, their love for each other. Impressive!

[Finwe]

I suppose if we all pitched in, we could buy a little island somewhere, and start our own Rivendell or Lothlorien. We'd have to change things around because, it just isn't practical for a country to remain completely isolated from the rest of the world. We need to come up with a government, economic system (imports, exports, etc.), social structure, etc. It would be a VERY difficult undertaking.

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

Well, various people have always idscussed having a country of Tolkien fans.... But a religion? No. Like Alatariel said, it would be decidedly anti-Tolkien.

[Northman]

a religion or a country is taking being a fan way to far. That's almost as sad as star wars freaks or "treckies"

[Lhunardawen]

It would be better, though, to follow the GOOD examples the characters have shown. But a religion? There would not be enough information about ME to create one. May I make a suggestion, though? Follow Tolkien's religion. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Trippo The Hippo]

I just dont see the point. There are plenty of religions out there we dont need to go around bowing to Illuvatar. As far as adopting Tolkiens that is a fine idea. As said in the movie documentaries there are few MEs left. (ie Rolling forests. Huge Mountains.) These can be preserved and cherished just has Tolkien wanted but a relgion is too far and frankly pointless.

[Olorin_TLA]

Hmm...sure, be a Catholic if you want, just remebr that the Pope is just a man...and a pretty stupid one at that (just look at how he's handling the AIDs crisis by suggesting that contraception spreads AIDs...)

[mark12_30]

That last post was divisive, offensive, and not Tolkien-related in the least. I highly recommend you remove it ASAP.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Personally I don't see that happening.

First of all, like Trippo said, we already have a lot of religions to choose from. Thinking of all the problems that have arisen because of religion and especially the differences of religion, I don't think we need another one.

Second, Tolkien was a devoted catholic, and that is very clear in his work. You could rename God Illuvatar, but then what? All the principles of Christianity, and more specifically Catholicism, are found in his books. So it would not really be a new religion now would it? Love your neighbour as yourself, honour your mother and father, do not kill, feed the hungry, blablabla, it's all there.

Finally, all known religions have grown troughout thousands of years, because of tales, myths, miracles, prophets,... Religion is for a big part based on history(fictious or not). And it has grown on values like love and belief in a God, or in Gods, and it gives the people who believe a reason for living.
Creating a religion just seems very fake to me.

But you can find positive messages in Tolkien's work. Courage, love for nature, friendship, it's all there. If thát helps you living your life, that's wonderful! ( I know it helps me...)

I just wanna add, Olorin, I couldn't agree more with you.

[elenquesse]

If anyone "created" a ME religion, I might be krazy enough to join, although I find this highly improbable. As many have already stated, Tolkien, no doubt, would turn over in his grave. But hey, if people can list "Jedi Knight" as their religion, why not name Tolkienism?

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

As has been said by others, why not follow the examples of good characters such as Sam, Aragorn, Frodo, Beren, etc. Or, if you really are drawn to the values shown in Tolkien's work, you could look into Christianity (you don't have to be specifically Catholic, just because Tolkien was). I myself am a Christian.

[Olorin_TLA]

Controverisal maybee, but I don't think it was offesnive...I was just worried about people joining a religion not really for religious purposes, but because of their sincere admiration for a member of that religion, and then because of that dodgy first step maybe following teachings which are jsuyt wrong like the one I mentioned.

Like many have said, I guess be nice like that LotR people are would be good (don't be like Saruon!)...although I think this topic's maybe taken too serious a turn if it was meant to be a "what if" scenario...

[Everdawn]

Well im not a religious person but even i that was insensitive, you shouldnt disrespect other peoples beliefs. Becuase you know, if Tolkien became some sort of following, people may disrespect it and we wouldnt want that to happen.

I myself have now decided i am going to live by example, the values in the work Mr Tolkien created, and the messages the book send. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Olorin_TLA]

I wasn't disrespecting. Ah well, nevermind. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lord of Angmar]

It is my understanding that a religion is based upon the belief in, worship of, reverence for, and adherence to the laws of, a deity or "God" figure. Since the stories of Middle-earth and Arda written by J.R.R. Tolkien are works of fiction, it would be a stretch for anyone to claim any major aspect of the work as grounds for religious practice. To say that you believe in the Valar or the Music of the Ainur is in a sense to embrace the idea that perhaps the Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion and Professor Tolkien's related works are in fact the word of a God or deity, an enlightened figure or messenger of God. I am sure Tolkien would find any notion that he was one of the above not only untrue, but blasphemous, and any interpretation of his major works as anything more than epic fiction (albeit with a good deal of underlying morality and arguably, unconsciously inserted ideology) would be a disservice to the Professor.

[Kalimac]

I doubt that forming a "Tolkien religion" would get you much more than a few raised eyebrows; after all, Scientology was invented fairly recently, and there was a thing recently (I think in Australia) where people were trying to have "Jedi" declared as an official religion, and that's all from the head of George Lucas. But Tolkien himself was very Catholic, and would probably be horrified at the prospect - so it probably wouldn't be the best way to honour him.

And Olorin, I'm sorry, but your comments were rather offensive. It's legitimate (if hardly relevant) to say that "The Pope says this, and I disagree with him because of x,y,z" but instead you're assuming that what he says on that particular issue is "just wrong" as if that were some sort of universally acknowledged truth. You may not have meant to offend, but you certainly succeeded in doing so nonetheless.

[Everdawn]

Scientology was invented fairly recently, and there was a thing recently (I think in Australia) where people were trying to have "Jedi" declared as an official religion,

It really wouldnt surprise me! The wierdos are crazy here in Oz.

[Olorin_TLA]

Yeah, you'd have to really believe in their existence for a religion as oppsoed to a way of life/philosophy (for want of a better word)...

Mind you, if I went to some alien invaders and acted as though the Middle-earth works were real, I dare say a few might convert. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]


We had the Jedi thing here in the Uk to, thoguh it was a joke to have a funny stat for the census. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Iris Alantiel]

I guess if you didn't know that the world of Middle Earth was fictional and entirely made up in Tolkien's mind, it would make a pretty cool religion, but since we know that, I think it would be difficult to get some really sincere beliefs. I suppose you could try to follow the examples of the characters you find most admirable, but I wouldn't say that's necessarily a religious thing; it would depend on whether you relate to those principles as being things that would please God or get you into heaven or whatever objective you're trying to achieve spiritually.

[Olorin_TLA]

One reason it'd do so well if it somehow became known to people with no knowledge is was fiction, would be (apart form the fact the prologue and appendices present it as a translation! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] ) because of the huuuuge detail therein. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

I read somewhere that Tolkien hated it when people became too obsessed with Middle Earth, like having lotr weddings and such. So he'd probably send balrogs down from the halls of mandos or something on any island we'd start. But any tolkienites living there would just take it as a religious sign and triumphantly keep on going so it wouldn't work. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
But seriously, lotr definitely has enough history and details to actually start something from all that. But it would be kind of weird. How would it work?

[Lord of Angmar]

How would it work?

It would work about as effectively as a cult religion dedicated to Orlando Bloom, and would require the same level of mental instability from its participants.

[Trippo The Hippo]

It would work about as effectively as a cult religion dedicated to Orlando Bloom, and would require the same level of mental instability from its participants.

Certainly not a Orlando Bloom cult would require much more mental instability. But I sense your point it agree with it.

[Lord of Angmar]

Certainly not a Orlando Bloom cult would require much more mental instability.

Oh would it? At least Orlandism would be worshipping something tangible (a living person) instead of the fictional writings of a man who has not only never claimed to be a prophet, deity or messenger but who has expressly written that he does not appreciate over-fanaticism with regards to his works, nor claim that any part of his works (other than, perhaps the morals behind them) are or should be interpreted, as real or tangible.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:45 PM January 02, 2004: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

You could rename God Illuvatar, but then what? All the principles of Christianity, and more specifically Catholicism, are found in his books. So it would not really be a new religion now would it? Love your neighbour as yourself, honour your mother and father, do not kill, feed the hungry, blablabla, it's all there.

You make a good point, Mariska! I always saw the entire Middle Earth phenomenon as this sort of sub-creation, as Tolkien also believed it to be. But, as it is created 'sub' to something else, it is a reflection of Tolkien's worldview and his religion is central to that. But I also think there is a thread that underlies many spiritual experiences. As is quoted in Tolkien's Letter to Carole Batten-Phelps (#328):

He (the correspondent to whom Tolkien refers) had been much struck by the curious way in which many old pictures seemed to him to have been designed to illustrate The Lord of the Rings long before its time. He brought one or two reproductions. I think he wanted at first simply to discover whether my imagination had fed on pictures, as it clearly had been by certain kinds of literature and languages. When it became obvious that, unless I was a liar, I had never seen the pictures before and was not well acquainted with pictorial Art, he fell silent. I became aware that he was looking fixedly at me. Suddenly he said: 'Of course you don't suppose, do you, that you wrote all that book yourself?'

Tolkien interjects "Pure Gandalf!" at this point. In the same Letter, the correspondent referred to above, said

...you (Tolkien)...create a world in which some sort of faith seems to be everywhere without a visible source, like light from an invisible lamp.

I find this to illustrate the effect that LOTR has on many and the way it can be likened to a religious experience--Tolkien's religion is everywhere in it, and that religion is itself ancient and drawn ultimately from other sources through which it was built into what it was in Tolkien's time and today.

All this does not stop me from believing in the core values that shine throughout the text. Any Middle Earth religion would, to my mind, be an ethic, rather than a religion as such, for his creator (Eru)and 'subcreators' (the Valar) are all concretely real. There is a line of experience drawn from Eru to the Valar to the Elves to Men and, althoughmuch is forgotten in the mists of time, it is all more closely drawn as a myth rather than a straight religion.

To add a little note of fruitcakery to this post, I will add that I myself DO believe in the Force, but I don't classify myself as "Jedi," for that would take many years of training and discipline, and I am notoriously lazy! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I don't think such a belief excludes others but is merely a name put to a universal concept. I do not take it literally, but "The Force" is one way to express it!

Cheers from Lyta Underhill, the avowed fruitcake and crackpot in residence! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Cheers!
Lyta

[Lord of Angmar]

You could rename God Illuvatar, but then what? All the principles of Christianity, and more specifically Catholicism, are found in his books. So it would not really be a new religion now would it? Love your neighbour as yourself, honour your mother and father, do not kill, feed the hungry, blablabla, it's all there.

You could rename God Illuvatar, but could you rename the Apostles the Valar or rename Jesus as Manwe? I agree that the general message and concept of the religion would be the same, but you would be in a sense cheapening Catholicism or Christianity in general by restructuring it after a work of complete fiction, and it would not really make any sense to do so.

I don't think such a belief excludes others but is merely a name put to a universal concept.

I agree. An ambiguous and undeveloped concept such as "the Force," which is to my understanding the fabric of the universe and the unsubstantial, "spiritual" (for want of a better word) power derived from everything therein, can be unexclusive and at the same time considered "religious". It is when you delve into the specifics of such a concept (who created the Force, what are the laws of the force, what is the ultimate purpose of the Force, what do we as individuals do within the confines of the laws of the Force) that it becomes exclusive. Humans, it seems, have a need to worship or at least acknowledge a higher power outside the realm of science and physical understanding. What makes worshipping the deities in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion a dumb idea is that, though the general concept, morality and ideology of the religion may be inexclusive and spiritually or existentially fulfilling, the structure of the religion would be based on deities who do not exist.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:37 AM January 04, 2004: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Lathriel]

In any story the ideals of christianity are there somewhere wether you are religious or not because society has lived with it for so long. So even if you made a new religion like was said before it would have the exact same message.
However a book is written to bring a messsage to the reader and that is more important than beginning a religion on a world someone created.
Although Middle-Earth is a different world things such as good,evil,and friendship are the same therefore the main ideals are the same.