Did I just see 'Gandalf' throw 'Denethor' into the pyre?

[lindil]

Maybe it was me but it just seemed as if last night I witnessed 'Gandalf' pitching 'Denthor' into the flames and then saying [as Denethor runs out on fire, with no one bothering to stop or help him] "So passes 'Denethor'", as if he werre some minor inconvienence standing in the way of 'Aragorn'. Talking to Thorondil on the phone confirmed that he saw the same, and was equally annoyed/distraught/amazed/confounded/bemused/annoyed/pi$$ed [continue inserting your own paradoxical adjectives ad nauseum...]<P>PJ if you happen to read this, for every great scene, and of course quite a few were, you trash and distort another. <P>Thank God I do not care 1 fig for King Kong!<P>Siince the distortions of the characterizations are now more or less complete, I will make it my policy [and encourage any others who feel pained by the false charaterizations to do likewise] to always put all the movie characters in quotation marks [aka doubt quotes] such as 'Arwen' and 'haldir' to distinguish them from their pure archetypes.<p>[ 3:21 PM December 18, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Diamond18]

<A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002529" TARGET=_blank>'Gandalf'</A><P><A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002518" TARGET=_blank>'Denethor'</A>

[lindil]

Diamond, if that was supposed to be some sort of rebuke or correction for starting a thread, when obviously independent threads exist for each of the characters, then conisder that I figured it really was worth a seperate thread since it was a utterly bizarre and prominent scene involving two major characters and neither single thread was an obvious choice.<P>but of course if no one responds...<p>[ 3:39 PM December 18, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Castamir]

Gandalf did not throw Denethor onto the pyre. Denethor was trying to kill himself and Faramir at the same time. gandalf was tryin to save Faramir

[lindil]

Yes he was trying to save 'Faramir', but in so doing he threw 'Denethor' into the pyre.

[Meela]

I was under the distinct impression that Gandalf poked Denethor with a large pointy stick and sent him back into the flames. Of course, he was trying to save Faramir, but it wasn't the most accidental of pushes.

[Fíriel of Ao Tea Roa]

Don´t even go there.<P><BR>

[doug*platypus]

Well, crafty bugger that he is, technically Gandalf did not kill Denethor. It was all that mean, nassty horses fault, preciouss. <P>Shadowfax, tired of all the inane human babbling, fires up and decides to pitch Denethor into the flames. Did Gandalf instruct him to? That's for the Steward Review Committee to decide. Was it absolutely necessary or possible for Denethor to jump down, run off and plunge to his doom? Well, why not have a guy running around in a flaming suit. The special effects budget is there to be used. <P>As for an inconsistency with the book, mister lindil sir (waggles bill in respectable acknowledgment), there is an interesting thread in the Books Forum where we discussed this topic. It was my contention that the deaths of Denethor and Boromir were extremely <I>convenient</I> and that without Faramir as Steward, Aragorn's ascendance to the throne would have been far more difficult. I think that the movie did well to highlight this fact, and that although <I>The Pyre of Denethor</I> was not as I would have presented it, it remained a pretty good scene (notwithstanding Gandalf's once again useless narration, and the lack of any personality from Denethor's helpers, which would have slowed the scene down).<P>I like the fact that this brief glimpse of politics was shown, and that Gandalf and Aragorn will be perceived by some as not being completely above reproach. Most people, unfortunately will feel comfortable with any necessary action being taken to humiliate and destroy Denethor, given his previous treatment of his son and army. <P>*cough* Saddam! *cough* *cough*

[Knight of Gondor]

I did think this scene could have been handled better. While Shadowfax was the one that kicked him (in defense, he was preventing him from stopping Faramir's rescue), I thought it was rather callous to have Gandalf pronounce <I>before</I> Denethor's death "So passeth" etc. I also didn't like the Flaming Leap of Doom, nor the Staff Whack.

[ainur]

Actually, both the staff bludgeoning and the nudge back onto the fire shocked me out of the movie for a few seconds, they were so out of character for Gandalf (and I don't just mean book Gandalf, but they were out of character for the Gandalf we've been watching over the last three films).

[Bill the Pony]

I had exactly the same reaction. What movie am I in again? Gandalf was behaving more like his X-men character than Gandalf!<P>The audience I was in cracked up when Denethor was on the pyre saying his bit about dying like whatever wild old race...and they didn't stop laughing until after the flaming swan-dive. I can usually figure out "what they were thinking" but this whole scene has me baffled. What *were* they thinking?<P>And what was up with the soldiers just sitting there?<P>Soldier 1: "Hey, check it out, Denethor is getting his arse kicked"<BR>Soldier 2: "Whoa..he's on fire. Think we should do something?"<BR>Soldier 1: "Nah, this armour chafes me if I move."

[TealDude4]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "Nah, this armour chafes me if I move." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Good one. <P>Its been 10 posts already and nobody has mentioned the Palantir being absent from this scene. I'm sure it wouldn't have ruined the scene if PJ had explained why Denethor mysteriously knew what was happening all the time. <P>It may end up confusing the average Joe Moviegoer, but maybe they wont even notice.

[The Saucepan Man]

No need for the Palantir, given the characterisation of Denethor in the film.<P>I wondered too, while I was watching the film, whether Gandalf had actually pushed Denethor back onto the flaming pyre, and I didn't like the implication of this. But there was also a shot, just before, in which it seemed that Denethor was already on fire. I cannot be sure, but did anyone else notice that?

[Finwe]

I think it was an editing screw-up. That scene did seem rather strange to me. I'm going to go see Return of the King again tonight, and I'm going to make sure what I saw was Gandalf kicking poor Denethor's arse, and then "nudging" him into the pyre. Even though I also don't like the implications of that action, if Peter meant it to look like that, I think that we haven't been giving him enough credit for his brilliance. Tolkien took Denethor out of the picture because Aragorn HAD to become King of Gondor. Now, if we change that "realization" to an idea in Gandalf's mind, wouldn't he have "nudged" Denethor into the pyre? Gandalf knew that Denethor's madness was too far gone for him to listen to any reason about Aragorn. Gandalf also knew that it was definitely not Faramir's time to die. As soon as Faramir was saved, Gandalf knew that Denethor HAD to die, and that is exactly what happened. Denethor died.<P>(Am I making any sense?)

[Castamir]

To be fair, i was talking about the books rather than the film. Sorry about that

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It was one of the more subtle twists in Tolkien's tale, and for it to work on screen it needed time, effort and skill as well as complete understanding of what was happening in the books.<P>The filmmakers completely screwed up what could have been one of the most powerful scenes in the movie.<P>However, Denethor is no more than a minor character so it really doesn't matter how he's finished off, as long as we see LOTS and LOTS of Orcs dying! Yeah!

[Finwe]

Eomer, I think you're missing the point. See my previous post. I think Peter actually hit upon exactly what Tolkien thought while he was writing it. Sometimes murder HAS to be committed for good to triumph over evil. Besides, anything done in defense of good, will be good, just as anything done in defense of evil, will be evil, no matter what the doer's intentions are.

[pandora]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think Peter actually hit upon exactly what Tolkien thought while he was writing it. Sometimes murder HAS to be committed for good to triumph over evil. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You need to read the books again. <P>The whole book (and the Silmarillion for that matter) is about the virtue of humility set against the sins of hubris and pride. I don't think Tolkien could have been clearer on that: "pity stayed his hand" etc.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Besides, anything done in defense of good, will be good, just as anything done in defense of evil, will be evil, no matter what the doer's intentions are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No. That is the very reason Galadriel does not take the Ring: wanting to do good she would be tempted into evil ways. Justifying her actions as being for the good (the ends justifying the means) is exactly the trap set by the Ring's power. <P>What you are claiming is a total perversion of the books' message: pity defeats hate while hate just breeds more hate.<p>[ 6:42 PM December 19, 2003: Message edited by: pandora ]

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

I noticed that, too, and it bugged me as well. I suppose it's possible to blame it all on Shadowfax, and thus blame it on no one, since horses are not usually held responsible for their actions (but Shadowfax, being himself, may be a notable exception). So I don't really know. I overall preferred the entire scene in the book, what with Denethor deciding in the end that he would have naught, and carrying out his plans of his own accord, instead of his death being caused by something that looks like an accident of sorts, when he seemed to be on the verge of repentance. I also preferred the fact that the book has a much less graphic depiction of Denethor's demise, seeing as Gandalf closed the door, and they all looked away in horror, instead of a flaming man running off a cliff. <P>I, too, was rather astonished at the staff whack, as I was when Pippin, after valiantly offering his service, was nudged rather severly and told to get up. (For the record, the theater-goers clapped at the first incidence, and laughed at the second. It seems to have been a rather strange audience).<P>I agree with Pandora on the point of "necessary murder" and so forth. I think it would be wrong to assume that Gandalf decided, even in the book, that Denethor's death was necessary. Let us say, rather, that it was an unfortunate event which allowed for fortunate events to happen, if only indirectly.

[lindil]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> if Peter meant it to look like that, I think that we haven't been giving him enough credit for his brilliance. Tolkien took Denethor out of the picture because Aragorn HAD to become King of Gondor. Now, if we change that "realization" to an idea in Gandalf's mind, wouldn't he have "nudged" Denethor into the pyre? Gandalf knew that Denethor's madness was too far gone for him to listen to any reason about Aragorn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am sorry but the fact you have uncovered what may be PJ's motives make the scene all the more distressing.<P>Tell me do you really think the Isari were sent to murder heads of state they did not agree with to put their own candidates on the throne? It may be considered business as usual by the CIA, but it strays completely beyond the bounds of the morality that JRRT cerated for Gandalf in particular and the Istari in general. In short if it was anything other than an accident it was murder, and not self-defense.<P>Yes, Aragorn has a destiny to become King, but in the book, it is clear that we do not know how that will happen, all the characters in the know [excepting Denethor], simply trust that it will work out as it should as long as the throne itself is not pursued fopr it's own sake.<P>Aragorn becomes King [and marries Arwen] because he was destined for it and because he sacrifices virtually his whole life to do his duty, which renders him fit for the Kingship. <P>Gandalf conviently trying to 'nudge' Denethor out of the way is a complete misunderstanding of the role of the Istari. I truly hope this is not the case, but with PJ's clear penchant for re-writing Tolkien and 'improving' upon his characterizations, i suppose little is beyond him.<P>The more I reflect on RotK, the less desire I have to see it again. Although I will give it another go come ext RotK time I am sure.<p>[ 8:11 PM December 19, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[juhsstin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I, too, was rather astonished at the staff whack, as I was when Pippin, after valiantly offering his service, was nudged rather severly and told to get up. (For the record, the theater-goers clapped at the first incidence, and laughed at the second. It seems to have been a rather strange audience). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>the staff whack caught me off guard, but i didn't even notice the pippin nudge, and in my theater, everyone laughed at both. i think it's a little bit of a "childish humor to get the audience laughing" kinda thing. but i still thought the staff whack was out of line. <P>denethor was already made out to be a pretty nasty guy, more so than when i read it in the book. this too might be thought of as "exaggerating characteristics to make it clear for the audience" imho. just a guess anyway <P>so with the murder thing, you're in fact saying that gandalf MURDERS denethor. it's really shocking to think of it that way. gandalf just gets down and dirty in ROTK doesn't he?

I also think this was out of character for the movie Gandalf and I disagree with the "necessary murder" theory. Gandalf himself said:<P>"Do not be too eager to deal out death and judgement, for even the very wise cannot see all ends."<P>If Gandalf did intentionally kill Denethor then he certainly wasn't taking his own advice. As somewhat pointed out earlier, the problem with this scene isn't that it differs from the books, but that it is inconsistent with the films themselves.

[Bill the Pony]

I just saw it again and watched this scene especially closely...<P>Gandalf hits Denethor because he's roughing up Pippin, and then Shadowfax knocks him into the flames. So I guess it's my big cousin's fault after all...unless my eyes were cheated by some spell?

[hobbit punk]

I remember the first time I saw RotK the staff whack kept me in complete shock for at least five minutes. My friend who hadn't read the books leaned over and asked if that was in the books. I just shook my head and was like nooooooooooooo and my friend was like well, I like it! All the non-book people loved the staff whack so I think it was used as a device to get the audience to chuckle. I thought it was below Gandalf to beat the crap out of the Steward of Gondor but maybe he was just defending Pippin. When Denethor ran off the cliff in flames I was very disappointed. I loved the part in the book where he breaks his staff and we see the palantir. With him running off the cliff, it robbed him of an honorable death. Sure, what he was doing wasn't exactly honorable but it seemed very disrespectful to change his death scene like that. The closed doors and the scream are much more effective. People in my theatre laughed as well when he jumped to his doom. I enjoyed the film more the second time I saw it, which was yesterday, but the one part I can never see myself enjoying is the Denethor death scene.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sure, what he was doing wasn't exactly honorable but it seemed very disrespectful to change his death scene like that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Amen to that! PJ beat the subtlety out of that scene. I was appalled, to say the least, as were my book-reading fellow viewers. The majority of the audience burst into cheers, which I attribute to the general perversion of the Hollywood movie diet. I can forgive ignorance, but I was terribly disappointed with PJ nonetheless. The scene began so promisingly.<P>It was Shadowfax that did it, strangely enough. The editing there is horrible. Denethor is harrassing Pippin on his hands and knees, the fire burning on the pyre a full 4-5 feet above his head, then there's the Shadowfax confusion, and then he takes a tremendous leap backwards, from the crouching position, and lands squarely on the flames. It's ridiculous.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It was my contention that the deaths of Denethor and Boromir were extremely convenient and that without Faramir as Steward, Aragorn's ascendance to the throne would have been far more difficult. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It seems to me that in the books Boromir had some doubts about Aragorn when first introduced to him at the Council of Elrond, however, he came to accept Aragorn's claim as Isildor's heir. Boromir was not an obsticle to Aragorn's ascendance to the throne.<P>PJ and his writers have changed many of the characters personality traits. Until RotK I thought they had been doing a good job portraying Gandalf. Of course, they couldn't leave well enough alone so we have scenes such as:<P>Gandalf wacking Denethor with his staff.<BR>Gandalf pushing Denethor back onto the pyre.<BR>Gandalf yelling at Pippin and again using the staff instead of affording him respect when he offers his services to Denethor.<P>Gandalf was supposed to come back from death with additional wisdom (hence from grey to white). Not with a penchant for wacking people around!

[lindil]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The majority of the audience burst into cheers, which I attribute to the general perversion of the Hollywood movie diet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sad but true SSM.<P>The more I ponder 'RotK' the more it rates as a dismal failure for me. Everything of course reminds one of the book, but is in reality, almost always a perviosn or a pale shadow. <P>Too bad, it had so many elements in it's favor.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> PJ and his writers have changed many of the characters personality traits. Until RotK I thought they had been doing a good job portraying Gandalf. Of course, they couldn't leave well enough alone so we have scenes such as:<P>Gandalf wacking Denethor with his staff.<BR>Gandalf pushing Denethor back onto the pyre.<BR>Gandalf yelling at Pippin and again using the staff instead of affording him respect when he offers his services to Denethor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Indeed, the fall of 'Gandalf' in this movie was in many ways the final straw for me, as had been maintained with a degree of dignity. Of course the fact that McKellan was willing to argue w/ PJ to keep as much of the real dialogue in surely helped, but 'RotK' was almost some kind of bizarre parody in so many scenes.

[Elfchick7]

Indeed I see your point. You must remember that Pj likes to do freaky movies, hence Frodo falling into the dead marshes and the paths of the dead were done in a living dead fashion. As for Pippin, PJ kind of completely changed him into a foolish coward, i.e. "They don't actually expect me to fight..." where as in the books Pippin was sad to be left behind while everyone else fought. You have to realise that Pj did his best, what is done is done, and go to the books for condolences.

[Cinderella]

Gandalf DOES NOT push denethor into the pyre.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Gandalf hits Denethor because he's roughing up Pippin, and then Shadowfax knocks him into the flames. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you really watch the scene, that is what hapens. I saw it for a second time and if you are paying attention it is quite clear that Gandalf's only reason for going near Denethor was to protect Pippin. Now I'm sure this will only spark a new debate over why Denethor would be beating on Pip but oh well. It is quite clear that Gandalf does not intentionally <I>push</I> Denethor into his pyre.

[Lost One]

I think if will all be clearer in the EE, and I wouldn't be surprised in the palantir did appear - the earlier scene with Gandalf and Denethor almost explicitly mentioned it. The choreography was affected by the absence of Beregond, which meant Pippin and Gandalf had to intervene more physically. It should have been clearer though, and Denethor more noble, even in his final despair.

[Kalimac]

Lost One - I agree, I was surprised (what with the earlier "Did you think that the eyes of the white tower..." and the references to Denethor having farsight) that the Palantir didn't make an appearance in the end. I'm betting it will be in the EE, it would explain a lot, and make even movie-Denethor easier to understand. Notice how when he rushes out after catching fire you never actually see him in detail - he could be carrying a Palantir for all that we see. (Or else I'm indulging in massive wishful thinking, but I hope not).<P>Gandalf did not give Denethor any help in getting to the hereafter, and whatever the facts in terms of Denethor being inconvenient to Aragorn, it would have been unforgivable if he had. The way I saw it was; Denethor lights the pyre, Pippin jumps up to heave Faramir off of it, Denethor jumps down, already with a fabric-end or two on fire, and starts beating up on Pippin to get Faramir back, Gandalf knocks him off of Pippin with his staff, Shadowfax gives him a kick, Denethor lands on pyre. It's a clumsy way to go about killing anyone, especially if the person involved is so clearly wishing to die that he decides to take a flaming cannonball dive off of the nearest parapet. <P>The thing I really didn't like was that dive - even movie-Denethor wasn't quite as over-the-top as all that; he seemed more like the type who'd stand stoically on the pyre so as to keep face before his enemies. But now that I think about it, they probably had to do that, after the whole Shadowfax-kicking thing, to show that Denethor's death was entirely voluntary and not just the result of an accident. Of course, you could have just had Denethor, once beaten off of Pippin, just jump onto the pyre himself as a final act of defiance, but then...OK, enough with the wishful thinking. Revealing the Palantir is probably as close as the EE will get.

[doug*platypus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Boromir was not an obsticle to Aragorn's ascendance to the throne. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They had not reached Minas Tirith yet, nor become rivals in her wars. Touché! sayeth the platypus. I love the word obsticle too, I'm going to say that whenever a popsicle is somehow in my way... damn that lemonade obsticle! I can't get past!<P>In defence of Finwe, I do have a feeling that Peter Jackson was trying to impress on us the need for the removal of Denethor to pave the way for the king. I question his use of Shadowfax and Gandalf to commit the murder directly, especially as everyone has quite rightly pointed out this is not in character either for bookGandalf or movieGandalf (who up until this movie were one and the same).<P>Maybe we will have to wait until the real version (not the short version) of the movie comes out. And I thought the wait was already over! Alas, another 10 months!! One thing that is certain, though, is that the purpose of that scene was <B>not</B> explained clearly enough. Although it's someting I'm sure we all enjoy, that kind of scene should not require endless debate to understand what the director was trying to achieve. Murky filmmaking.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Murky filmmaking. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Indeed. If Jackson intended Gandalf to play a part in Denethor's demise, then he goes down in my estimation (particularly since, as others have pointed out, this totally is out of character for film Gandalf, let alone book Gandalf). I am sure that Jackson did not intend this, the staff thwacking (which I must admit I really rather enjoyed) notwithstanding. But it is nevertheless rather sloppy to have a scene which clearly leaves this issue in doubt. I hope that it will be cleared up in the EE - for those of us who really care.<P>And I am not sure that I like the implication of Shadowfax pushing Denethor onto the fire, either.

[Kalimac]

Unless it's that Shadowfax is supposed to be indirectly defending Gandalf, who presumably is now the object of Denethor's wrath for having pulled him off of Pippin and, hence, Faramir. That would make sense. I agree that the scene is still pretty confusing, though; way too much going on, and they try to compress it too much. Having Denethor yank out a Palantir from somewhere (where?) would actually give the scene some much needed slowing-down. Heck, if they really wanted to, they could make him be kicked onto the pyre by Shadowfax (not right, but I doubt that'll be cut) grab the Palantir, hold it up, and say something along the lines of "I've seen it all, the Eye shows me that we're doomed, even now the Black Ships are coming," (obviously you couldn't put the "Eyes of the White Tower" bit there, since's he's already used it). Then he could collapse and go up in flames while holding onto it, then in the last second spring to life and make a run for the door - again, another unnecessary element, but probably not going anywhere. It would make things clearer, especially the part where he stays on the pyre by choice. <P>The non-acting guards bother me too. But then, the guards bothered me in the book as well, not from their wanting to be obedient (Beregond was a good example of that) but because of the fact that when Denethor ordered them to bring oil and wood etc, their reaction seems to have been essentially "Whatever you say. I'm only following orders." The fact that Beregond needed to break his oath to keep the still-breathing heir of Denethor from being burnt alive by his own servants is pretty strange. Not that they could have realistically defied Denethor to his face, but how about calling for help of some sort instead of obediently running to the Toolshed of the Stewards and fetching the propane?<p>[ 8:14 PM December 21, 2003: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Theron Bugtussle]

RE: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...out of character for the movie Gandalf...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I beg to differ, but this IS the movie Gandalf. PJ has control over his characters and his script. This is his version of 'improving Tolkien,' and another glaring case of screwing it up royally.<P>I think I know what you meant, though. It seems inconsistent with Gandalf's character up to this point in the Jackson movies. And I agree, up to a point. <P>But where I disagree is where the movie Gandalf <I>has already diverged</I> from the book Gandalf (in TTT). Why did PJ show Gandalf 'casting Saruman out of Theoden?' Not because it was in Tolkien, but because that is Jackson's version of a better wizard. All Dungeons & Dragons. Words of truth and fresh air is just too darn subtle for Monster-Man Jackson.<P>So we have "Gung-Fu Gandalf and the Staff of Striking." (That will be the name of the scene on the DVD, right?) Instead of Denethor turning over the defence of the city to Gandalf, PJ instead gives us the Coup of the (Third) Age. <P>Perhaps PJ first offered the role of Gandalf to Eddie Murphy? <I>"Back in the fire, b*tch!"</I><p>[ 7:03 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Theron Bugtussle ]

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I beg to differ, but this IS the movie Gandalf. PJ has control over his characters and his script. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But that's the point. My main gripes with these films (which are few in number) occur not where they diverge from the books, but where they are internally inconsistent.

[sassyfriend]

It was Shadowfax who kicked Denother onto the fire