WW LXXXVII - The Valley Forge

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

All are ways to indicate you've cross-posted with someone.

Thanks. Figured, but didn't want to assume.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I suppose that's true. Any lynch of a non-wolf is bad, but here the odds of hitting the Watchdwarf are pretty low. Then again, how often have Seers been lynched on Day 1?

Or the previous one where the hunter got into trouble and his main target on Day 1 was the ranger.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Boro

The positive news is there really can be no disastrous lynches on Day 1

Yes, the fact that there is no Seer makes me much more at ease today than I usually am with a Day 1 lynch (where I customarily try to lynch an Ordo just to avoid the gifteds).

Ha ha, and your Day 2 prediction is just so right!

Originally Posted by Inzil

Seems there are quite a few who have yet to make an appearance toDay.

Yeah, still waiting.

Originally Posted by Finduilas

And also, Phantom suggested that the Sweetheart be a turncoat and do her best to get the fellow killed.

Ah, but if he's actually wishing to die, she wouldn't be betraying him by helping him carry out his wishes, would she?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Um, on a side note as an ignorant beginner, what does e/x, exed, xed stand for?

Originally Posted by Inzil

All are ways to indicate you've cross-posted with someone.

Oh! THAT'S what it means! All this time I thought it was supposed to be an insult, along the lines of "screw you", only the more hostile version.

I mean, people were always saying, "Xed Phantom", so I just assumed...

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ah, but if he's actually wishing to die, she wouldn't be betraying him by helping him carry out his wishes, would she?

Who doesn't love a nice Shakespearean romance?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I think I can predict Day 2 discussion already...It's going to be phantom's genius is obviously too advanced for the time, and thus has no chance to succeed. Everyone scraps the idea completely and ignores it. Some will argue tp deserves to be lynched for it, others will defend him with much gusto and flair. Some will choose to look at votes to cast suspicion, some will fling out the most outrageous claims based on gut feelings, some won't have our best interest at hearts, and some will continue to vote randomly do to lack of time.

Most definitely.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Who doesn't love a nice Shakespearean romance?

Should the sweetheart pretend to die, so that the KD would kill himself to? Nay, I think that WW games resemble A Midsummer Night's Dream more than that tragedy stuff.


To say something of content, I think I will save my opinion on who to lynch until more people have posted. I am willing to follow tp's plan for now and lynch the KD, and I wouldn't mind getting a wolf either. However, the main issue here is who to lynch, not which role.

*yawns* Bedtime for now. I hope to see other posters in the morning.

[Nerwen]

ARRGH! I only just got my computer back and– the game's started already!

I'll post more when I've had time to read.

[McCaber]

Well, should we each give a list of three people we randomly suspect?

In which case I'll go with Rikae, Glirdy, and Pitchwife.

[Nerwen]

So, a quick comment:

I think we need some word-of-mod before we adopt phantom's plan– since it would, in effect, end the game immediately, unless I've much misunderstood the way the roles work.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by McCaber

Well, should we each give a list of three people we randomly suspect?

Hmmm... I suppose if enough people did it... And just to make certain the KD has appropriate cover, I'll try not to change my suspicions from today to tomorrow, as he won't be shifting his suspicions either. At least one other person should probably do the same to make certain the KD isn't officially "revealed" to everyone.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

since it would, in effect, end the game immediately

Only if we lynch him correctly. If we don't, it could very well make things harder, as the Forge will know who the traitor is immediately.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Hmmm... I suppose if enough people did it... And just to make certain the KD has appropriate cover, I'll try not to change my suspicions from today to tomorrow, as he won't be shifting his suspicions either. At least one other person should probably do the same to make certain the KD isn't officially "revealed" to everyone.

Only if we lynch him correctly. If we don't, it could very well make things harder, as the Forge will know who the traitor is immediately.

Yes, I'm aware of that. So if we go ahead, it means either an instant victory (but one that would feel to me, at least, not unlike cheating), or else the village shooting itself in its collective foot pretty badly. Not that keen on it, myself.

And even if I end up being in a minority on this, I think we should ask Foley first.

[the phantom]

Okay Nerwen, I understand what you're saying. All right then- if this plot is not going to be allowed, we need to find out as soon as possible before the KD gives us the three candidates and essentially outs himself to the Forge for nothing.

Though seeing as McCaber has already put out three names, it's sort of a sticky situation.

I'm all for it of course, but naturally if Foley says anything against it I'll back down.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Okay Nerwen, I understand what you're saying. All right then- if this plot is not going to be allowed, we need to find out as soon as possible before the KD gives us the three candidates and essentially outs himself to the Forge for nothing.

Though seeing as McCaber has already put out three names, it's sort of a sticky situation.

Thing is, I doubt the actual KD would jump straight into it like that.

[Mithalwen]

Well I just think it is against the spirit of the game so if that is the way you want to go I am out. It would be a rather pointless game no matter how clever the loophole.

[Mithalwen]

And I meant out of the plot not out of the game - I think it is unsporting, like shooting foxes.....

[Galadriel55]

TP's plan discarded already? Wow. Boro's predictions for D2 are already happening in D1.

I don't think it's that much of a problem if we do it the honest WW way - pick the most "suspicious" person at random (), just instead of aiming for a wolf you aim for the KD.

But, like Nerwen said, even if the plan is allowed, it might backfire badly.

So how about we try to get a Forge member toDay, like we always do. If we get one, it's a good thing. If we don't - it happens. If we get the KD - you can almost call it an accident. If we get the watchman - well, let's just try not to get the watchman. In other words, no special plans, just regular WW Day 1.

[Galadriel55]

Also, KD, Sweetheart, and Watchdwarf know something we all don't. Maybe it won't be any good for them - and us - if we lynch the KD early on. Or maybe it won't matter. I don't know. But they have supersecret abilities, and we don't know what they are, and how it can affec the game.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So how about we try to get a Forge member toDay, like we always do. If we get one, it's a good thing. If we don't - it happens. If we get the KD - you can almost call it an accident. If we get the watchman - well, let's just try not to get the watchman. In other words, no special plans, just regular WW Day 1.

And that's the crux of the matter. With no reveals, no matter what role we're aiming to lynch, the result is more likely to be something different anyway. I mean we are trying to lynch a forge every day technically, and how often does that happen? I think you summed it up best yesterday with, the main issue being who to lynch, not which role.

The thing I don't get tp is if you aren't the KD, as you say, how are you hoping to provide cover to the KD from the Forge? Isn't the KD in conversation with the other 3 Forge members, and thus the Forge knows 1 out of 4 is the KD? It'll just be a matter of debate on when do the Forge realize who amongst them is the KD and whether they want to risk it, since there is the risk they kill one of their own, instead of the KD.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Boro

The thing I don't get tp is if you aren't the KD, as you say, how are you hoping to provide cover to the KD from the Forge?

I never said we could give him cover from the Forge- what we can give him is cover from modfire (by a couple of us maintaining the same suspects thus not making it clear immediately which person is obviously the KD thus earning modfire).

Anyway, gotta run. I'm driving several hundred miles today. Hopefully I'll get a chance to vote before I leave in half an hour or so.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I never said we could give him cover from the Forge- what we can give him is cover from modfire (by a couple of us maintaining the same suspects thus not making it clear immediately which person is obviously the KD thus earning modfire).

Well, I assumed that's what you meant– but, look, you've basically said it yourself now, tp: you know the rules were intended to prevent exactly this kind of thing. And I signed up to play Werewolf, not "find-the-loophole".

...I see we have, as usual, managed to spend the Day so far talking about phantom and his schemes. Perhaps we could start, oh I don't know, looking for wolves? Just a wild notion that suddenly occurred to me.

[Mithalwen]

It is a wild scheme, butit might just work!!! To be fair TP has been doing most of the talking 25% of all posts... so it will be lots of him.. I suppose it will go crazy around the deadline again... I shoudl away for a bit .... but I won't be too long

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Perhaps we could start, oh I don't know, looking for wolves?

But there are no wolves- just dwarves.

Anyway.... I have to go now, and I doubt I'll be back today, i.e. this is a golden opportunity for Phantom-haters to lynch me. You can attack me for being annoying (true) and wasting the day (not entirely fair, but believable), or if you're particularly nasty you can try and convince people that I am in fact the KD and have been inviting people to kill me all along (which is entirely false, but if you're very clever and devious you may be able to pull it off).

Anyway, I shall vote for Pitch, Eruhen, or Gal55.

*flips coin*

Heads, so... Crap, this coin isn't three sided. So umm....

You must be lynched-

++Pitch

(That was just for you, Sally. You may have to explain the joke to the uncultured masses. )

[Mithalwen]

We don't hate you necessarily dear..... maybe just getting wise..

[satansaloser2005]

We have to lynch....Pitch?

That's my boy.

Today's going to be mad busy, so I'll only say that I don't like Phantom's plan (I'd like to offer my own opinion on the KD later on if I have the chance) and I think some of the things Galadriel's said could easily be forging, but I'd need to look closer before I made any decisions.

I'll be back later, likely to vote.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by tp

Anyway.... I have to go now, and I doubt I'll be back today, i.e. this is a golden opportunity for Phantom-haters to lynch me. You can attack me for being annoying (true) and wasting the day (not entirely fair, but believable), or if you're particularly nasty you can try and convince people that I am in fact the KD and have been inviting people to kill me all along (which is entirely false, but if you're very clever and devious you may be able to pull it off).

Ah, reverse psychology! Clearly, this is exactly what he wants!

[Rikae]

Wow, I actually like phantom's plan for once. He's losing his edge.

Nah, really, if there are loopholes we should exploit them - that's part of the game. I kind of doubt the KD feels/will feel likewise, but it's interesting to see the reactions: Eruhen's claim that it's no different from an ordinary day one is absurd and has a whiff of desperation about it, and I don't know what McCobbler is doing (but I know for a fact he's not the KD!)

I'm going to go refresh my memory of the rules and roles...


EDIT: Please ignore the cubbies-blah-blah stuff, I don't know where it came from and I can't get rid of it!
img, #cubbies-overlay{ -moz-transition-property: margin, box-shadow, z-index; -moz-transition-duration: 0.1s; -webkit-transition-property: margin, box-shadow, z-index; -webkit-transition-duration: 0.1s; } .cubbies-selected{ z-index: 9999; box-shadow: 3px 3px 8px -1px blue !important; cursor: pointer !important; margin: -3px 3px 3px -3px; } .cubbies-selected:active{ box-shadow: 2px 2px 5px -1px darkblue !important; margin: -1px 1px 1px -1px; } #cubbies-overlay{ position: fixed; z-index: 9999; bottom: 30px; left: 30px; box-shadow: 0 2px 3px rgba(0,0,0,0.8); border: none; } #cubbies-overlay:hover{ box-shadow: 0 2px 3px rgb(0,0,0); }

[Rikae]

Okay, no cobbler (but he'll always be McCobbler to me).

This seems to be a flaw in the plan, though:
"This player will appear to be one of the members of the Valley Forge."

Does this mean the KD isn't revealed on his death?
img, #cubbies-overlay{ -moz-transition-property: margin, box-shadow, z-index; -moz-transition-duration: 0.1s; -webkit-transition-property: margin, box-shadow, z-index; -webkit-transition-duration: 0.1s; } .cubbies-selected{ z-index: 9999; box-shadow: 3px 3px 8px -1px blue !important; cursor: pointer !important; margin: -3px 3px 3px -3px; } .cubbies-selected:active{ box-shadow: 2px 2px 5px -1px darkblue !important; margin: -1px 1px 1px -1px; } #cubbies-overlay{ position: fixed; z-index: 9999; bottom: 30px; left: 30px; box-shadow: 0 2px 3px rgba(0,0,0,0.8); border: none; } #cubbies-overlay:hover{ box-shadow: 0 2px 3px rgb(0,0,0); }

[wilwarin538]

Okee, quote from the admin thread:

Members of the Valley Forge: Their purpose is to kill the King’s Dwarf and get the number of villagers down to their own number. During the night phases, they will PM amongst themselves and before the Night deadline, they will send the moderator the name of their kill.

The members of the Forge can only kill the King’s Dwarf at night if there are two or more of them left to do so. Once the game comes down to one Forge member left and the King’s Dwarf is still alive, that final Forge member cannot kill him.

Alrighty. So by the sounds of it the Forge can't win until the KD is dead (am I understanding this correctly?), and if there is only 1 Forge member left they cannot kill the KD at Night. So by lynching the KD during the day, would we not be helping the Forge? I mean they don't want to kill him at Night, that could draw attention to themselves, so they would want us to kill him for them.

Also, the KD is helpful to the Watchdwarf, and like G55 said, the KD, SH and WD know something we don't know, for all we know it could be something super useful to the village that requires all 3 of them to be alive. The only time I condone killing someone on our side is for the Hunter, any other person on the good side shouldn't be killed on purpose, especially when they have inside info like this, can help the ranger, and need to die for the baddies to win. So basically I don't agree with Phantom's plan.

And the admin thread says there are 4 Forge members, I'm assuming that means KD + 3 baddies, and NOT KD + 4 baddies?

DL is in about 5 hours and 15 minutes, right? I'll need to vote within the next 3 hours, because of work.

x'ed with Nerwen and Rikaex2

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Okay, no cobbler (but he'll always be McCobbler to me).

This seems to be a flaw in the plan, though:
"This player will appear to be one of the members of the Valley Forge."

Does this mean the KD isn't revealed on his death?
img, #cubbies-overlay{ -moz-transition-property: margin, box-shadow, z-index; -moz-transition-duration: 0.1s; -webkit-transition-property: margin, box-shadow, z-index; -webkit-transition-duration: 0.1s; } .cubbies-selected{ z-index: 9999; box-shadow: 3px 3px 8px -1px blue !important; cursor: pointer !important; margin: -3px 3px 3px -3px; } .cubbies-selected:active{ box-shadow: 2px 2px 5px -1px darkblue !important; margin: -1px 1px 1px -1px; } #cubbies-overlay{ position: fixed; z-index: 9999; bottom: 30px; left: 30px; box-shadow: 0 2px 3px rgba(0,0,0,0.8); border: none; } #cubbies-overlay:hover{ box-shadow: 0 2px 3px rgb(0,0,0); }

I believe he is revealed, according to the latest posts by Folwren in the admin thread.

Oh, and clearly that cubbies stuff is a code to her fellow baddies, Rikae is certainly evil.

[Galadriel55]

TP, I think you have to highlight votes.

Why Pitch, though? He only posted, like, once.

It looks like this game is turning into a debate of whether to listen to evil genius* Phantom or to ignore his advice. I don't care what the outcome of that will be, but I want lynch wolf! XD

*Does not mean you're necessarily a wolf, but you're always evil.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It looks like this game is turning into a debate of whether to listen to evil genius* Phantom or to ignore his advice.

In other news, studies have shown a high probability that the sun rises in the East!

I know, I know, this is your very first Day One with phantom, isn't it?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Alrighty. So by the sounds of it the Forge can't win until the KD is dead (am I understanding this correctly?), and if there is only 1 Forge member left they cannot kill the KD at Night. So by lynching the KD during the day, would we not be helping the Forge? I mean they don't want to kill him at Night, that could draw attention to themselves, so they would want us to kill him for them.

That's a good point. There's a loophole in the loophole plan. It could just work out perfectly, with us lynching the KD now and him giving us the names of the Forgers, but what if he doesn't give us the names, for whatever reason? Or we misinterpret his clues? Then the Forgers have nothing to fear from inside. And then, we might as well be lynching ordos Day by Day looking for the KD instead of eliminating the Forge.

Edit: xed with Nerwen. Yeah, my first time playing with him. Though I kept half an eye on Sally's game where he also tried to get the village to follow some plan.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Anyway, I shall vote for Pitch, Eruhen, or Gal55.

*flips coin*

Heads, so... Crap, this coin isn't three sided. So umm....

You must be lynched-

++Pitch

(That was just for you, Sally. You may have to explain the joke to the uncultured masses. )

But will Sally explain why you went for Pitch?

Anyway, you forgot to do a small thing with your vote, so it may not count anyway.

[Folwren]

I saw that you wanted a mod-input on the subject of killing the KD.

The game does not automatically end if the KD is killed by either the villagers or the Forge members.

Need anything else? I can give you my opinion on TP's plot, but I won't.

Have fun.

-- Folwren

[Nerwen]

So, I was going to summarize everyone's posts, and in fact i got some way into it– but honestly, practically the entire Day is phantom talking about his Cunning Plan and other people talking about phantom and his Cunning Plan.

Of note, though–

Bom Tombadillo makes a couple of posts of banter and joke accusation (#13 & #16). Possible "Hey, look, I'm just too silly to be a wolf?"

Boro sucks up– sorry, there's really no other way to put it– to phantom (#18, #38). Also makes what I think is the rather odd statement that "there really can be no disastrous lynches on Day 1".

Eruhen's (#28, #33) and Finduilas' (#39) reactions to the Plan seem to have a rather hasty, nervous tone– however I think they make valid points. Finduilas also ((#39, #41) emphasises her newbie status and unfamiliarity with the game, which can be a wolf-cub tactic– or just exactly what it looks like, a newbie unsure of the rules.

Oh, and Rikae is clearly under a mysterious curse.

EDIT:X'd with Folwren.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Edit: xed with Nerwen. Yeah, my first time playing with him. Though I kept half an eye on Sally's game where he also tried to get the village to follow some plan.

Saying the phantom wants everyone to follow one of his plans is like saying I drool uncontrollably at the sight of red hair. I mean it's like nature, everyone knows.

I have no interest in casting a vote for wilwa or Mith today, both look squeaky clean and innocent.

Moderately tempted to vote phantom, because he's all but taunting us to do it. But being Day 1, there's probably a better chance Glirdan gets lynched for absolutely no reason than the phantom being lynched for scheming.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Boro sucks up– sorry, there's really no other way to put it– to phantom (#18, #38. Also makes what I think is the rather odd statement that "there really can be no disastrous lynches on Day 1".

I could have added eye rolls to show those posts were filled to the brim with sarcasm, but if phantom (or anyone else) interprets as sucking up, that's fairy nuff.

I just mean in comparison it's not like a completely random Day 1 lynch can lose the game for us, like the times the seer gets lynched on Day 1. Still don't want to lynch helpful gifted, but I'm going to be less cautious with my Day 1 vote than normal.

And wilwa's been more convincing than the phantom, so bye bye to that plan tp. (I guess this means I'm sucking up to wilwa now?)

[Galadriel55]

Nice summary!

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also makes what I think is the rather odd statement that "there really can be no disastrous lynches on Day 1".

Out of context, that quote is quite suspicious. But when I read the paragraph, I got the point - usally D1 is a fiasco, often with a lynched Seer. This game, there is no Seer. The worst case is a lynched ordo.

But to think about that... There's also the WD. We don't want to lynch him.

Would that quote then be an attempt to say "hey villagers, it's ok if you lynch anybody - we don't care - as long as it's not me or my packmates"? Probably not.

Originally Posted by Boro

Moderately tempted to vote phantom, because he's all but taunting us to do it. But being Day 1, there's probably a better chance Glirdan gets lynched for absolutely no reason than the phantom being lynched for scheming.

NO LYNCH GLIRDY! Come on, he didn't even say a word! And he's in my city now (or was in my city some hours ago, I don't know), so NO LYNCH GLIRDY!!!

TP, on the other hand...



No, really. I'm not sure if I want to lynch phantom, but it will sure save me headaches later on.

Edit: xed with Boro

[Eruhen]

I didn't think it's possible, but this Day 1 has been even weirder and wackier than usual.

I honestly have no idea who I'm going to vote for, but it definitely won't be Phantom, mainly because he's all but taunting us into lynching him. Plus, though I've never played WW with him before, his posting style is just like what I remember from several years ago, and I assume there is a method (or at least a Methodist) to his madness.

Probably going to vote for a sub, though not Glirdan, since he hasn't had a chance to do anything today, being in transit all day.

[Eruhen]

Also, Sally, care to explain Phantom's vote for Pitch? I'm obviously not cool enough to know what he's talking about.