Were Dwarves attracted to Elves?

[Galadriel]

I was reading HoME Vol. II today, and I came across this line in The Nauglafring: "This do we ask...each a fair maiden of the woodland Elves to fare away with us to our homes."

Well, men will be men, I suppose, but I thought the Dwarves were too proud for that kind of thing. Though it might just explain Gimli's obess–er–respect–for Galadriel.

It is very probable that I am asking a stupid question and have overlooked something rather obvious. I do that a lot.

PS - If they were attracted to Elves, then were they also attracted to humans?

[Galin]

Well, I think it's questionable that such a line would have survived as part of the Red Book, post-Lord of the Rings Middle-earth.

Generally speaking, neither the Dwarves of The Book of Lost Tales, nor 'Tinwelint' (Thingol) remained the same in much later conceptions, yet that said, I think we can safely say Gimli thought Galadriel very fair in any case, implying that Dwarves (or at least some) could find Elves beautiful.

But if so, that still doesn't mean Tolkien would have retained this line from The Book of Lost Tales.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Generally speaking, neither the Dwarves of The Book of Lost Tales, nor 'Tinwelint' (Thingol) remained the same in much later conceptions, yet that said, I think we can safely say Gimli thought Galadriel very fair in any case, implying that Dwarves (or at least some) could find Elves beautiful.

In the canon works, I find Gimli's infatuation with Galadriel to be very singular. I think it's noteworthy that he alone in the history of the Dwarves (as far as we are told) is allowed to go to the Undying Lands, and it's intimated that it was his love for Galadriel that accomplished that. That love, moreover, seems to have had as much to do with her speaking Khuzdul names in Gimli's hearing as much as her physical beauty.

We don't see the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost falling for Melain. And even 'Lúthien returned' (aka Arwen) couldn't elicit in Gimli the reaction he had to Galadriel.

[Morthoron]

I think it has to do with all that Elf butt staring them in the face.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think it has to do with all that Elf butt staring them in the face.

Is there any record of elven ladies returning the infatuation?

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Is there any record of elven ladies returning the infatuation?

Not that I've heard of, but the thought could be a little disturbing...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In the canon works, I find Gimli's infatuation with Galadriel to be very singular. I think it's noteworthy that he alone in the history of the Dwarves (as far as we are told) is allowed to go to the Undying Lands, and it's intimated that it was his love for Galadriel that accomplished that. That love, moreover, seems to have had as much to do with her speaking Khuzdul names in Gimli's hearing as much as her physical beauty.

We don't see the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost falling for Melain. And even 'Lúthien returned' (aka Arwen) couldn't elicit in Gimli the reaction he had to Galadriel.

I would agree it wasn't Galadriel's beauty alone, but still Gimli found her very fair, which to my mind speaks to this much: to others, Dwarven women looked very much like Dwarven men (including beards), and Gimli finding Galadriel so fair indicates (to me) that Dwarves, again at least some, can find other females -- outside of female dwarves -- attractive.

Gimli's infatuation, as a whole, for Galadriel might be a bit of a different consideration than looking at the more specific 'physical attraction' possibility.

[Galadriel55]

I don't think Gimi's love for Galadriel was one of physical attraction. It's more like... being fascinated over a wiser and greater friend... something of that sort, I just can't get it out right. It's more of reverence than love in a way.

Possibly the dwarves needed some women - any women - because a lack of their own kind? I recall that they had very few females.

I haven't read HOME II, so I don't really know what's going on when the line was said...

[Pitchwife]

What was going on in HoME II (aka Book of Lost Tales) is that our Prof at that time still thought of the Dwarves as a faithless and devious, if not downright evil race that had 'no spirit indwelling' and wasn't above smithing even for Morgoth if the price was right - so why not make them lecherous and lust after elf-maidens too? The whole character of Gimli and his chivalric love for Galadriel would have been inconceivable in this context and are another matter altogether.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

What was going on in HoME II (aka Book of Lost Tales) is that our Prof at that time still thought of the Dwarves as a faithless and devious, if not downright evil race that had 'no spirit indwelling' and wasn't above smithing even for Morgoth if the price was right - so why not make them lecherous and lust after elf-maidens too? The whole character of Gimli and his chivalric love for Galadriel would have been inconceivable in this context and are another matter altogether.

I had a hunch that that was the case. Well, it's clear now. A little...

[Galin]

Well explained Pitchwife.

And again (for clarity in the thread), I'm not suggesting Gimli's infatuation was only due to Galadriel's great physical beauty, but that surely he found her physically 'attractive' as well -- and considering what I would characterize as a notable difference (from a Mannish perspective) between dwarf-women, who looked like dwarf-men to Men's eyes, and the beauty of Galadriel, I still would find it odd that Gimli only found Galadriel fair because of other factors...

... and somewhat odd if only Gimli could find an Elven woman fair. But that rather specific point doesn't, in any event, mean that the Dwarves of Moria were swooning everytime they spied an Elven woman in Eregion!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

What was going on in HoME II (aka Book of Lost Tales) is that our Prof at that time still thought of the Dwarves as a faithless and devious, if not downright evil race that had 'no spirit indwelling' and wasn't above smithing even for Morgoth if the price was right - so why not make them lecherous and lust after elf-maidens too? The whole character of Gimli and his chivalric love for Galadriel would have been inconceivable in this context and are another matter altogether.

Perfectly explained, Pitcher.

The thought I had was of the dwarfs in Norse mythology, who would frequently lust after goddesses and whatnot, irrespective of stature. *paging Mithalwen to make some jape about 'size' and the degree to which it matters

[Mithalwen]

But I was going to make some jest -I mean a seriously scholarly point - about beards. Are you trying to get me banned? Not that I have any idea to what you mean

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It doesn't matter how long I'm away from the Downs: I know you'll be there when such discussions pop up.

[Thinlómien]

Maybe Gimli's admiration for Galadriel's beauty was (at least partly) similar to other Dwarven love of beautiful things - such as the love for precious stones, mithril or the dark waters of Kheled-zaram - rather than similar to an average Dwarf male's admiration for a beautiful Dwarf female.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Maybe Gimli's admiration for Galadriel's beauty was (at least partly) similar to other Dwarven love of beautiful things - such as the love for precious stones, mithril or the dark waters of Kheled-zaram - rather than similar to an average Dwarf male's admiration for a beautiful Dwarf female.

Gimli did hone in on Galadriel's golden hair as something he was impressed by. Did he see her head as a large gold nugget?

[hankpac]

HI: new here.
I think Gimli was more of a superstitious person, as most Dwarves were regarding Elves. they were hidden, mistrustful and almost miserly hermits in their caves, hoarding their riches. elves were of the sunlight, and forest.
He speak of Galadriel as a witch, knowing but little, and most of that tales to frighten children Dwarves.
When he finds out how wrong he is, he is utterly disarmed, and completely taken with her charms. She does indeed steal his heart, and he becomes not only fast friends with Legolas, he is ever and fully devoted to the Lady.
Attracted? No it is far deeper than that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Gimli did hone in on Galadriel's golden hair as something he was impressed by. Did he see her head as a large gold nugget?

You're putting it in a bit of joking tone, but in fact, I would say technically the answer is "yes" in the very metaphorical sense: I think Lommy has a point there, and Gimli's kind of admiration for Galadriel's beauty was of a similar kind that he would have for a beautifully polished gem or something like that. "Gold nugget" is probably nothing that beautiful by itself, but the delicate strands of hair, delicate but strong and shining of gold or who knows what "magical Elvish" glow they might have had, I would say it is not far-fetched to compare.

Originally Posted by Silmarillion, Chapter 5

A sister they had, Galadriel, most beautiful of all the house of Finwë; her hair was lit with gold as though it had caught in a mesh the radiance of Laurelin.

Somebody likes Silmarils (or: everyone likes Silmarils), I think the hair "goes in the same direction", and I can see especially people prone to liking such things (Fëanor and Dwarves - note that it was exactly those two who had asked for Galadriel's hair).

Originally Posted by UT, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

...gave to Fëanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress...

Originally Posted by hankpac

HI: new here.
I think Gimli was more of a superstitious person, as most Dwarves were regarding Elves. they were hidden, mistrustful and almost miserly hermits in their caves, hoarding their riches. elves were of the sunlight, and forest.
He speak of Galadriel as a witch, knowing but little, and most of that tales to frighten children Dwarves.
When he finds out how wrong he is, he is utterly disarmed, and completely taken with her charms. She does indeed steal his heart, and he becomes not only fast friends with Legolas, he is ever and fully devoted to the Lady.
Attracted? No it is far deeper than that.

This is a good point, too. The "moment of surprise" was definitely of large importance there, and I think it's been overlooked here by previous posters. It definitely plays a major role there, too, and the words that "...it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and saw there love and
understanding" clearly indicate something deeper and more important going on there.

And welcome to the 'Downs!

[Galin]

Well, to any who are stressing other factors behind Gimli's reaction to Galadriel: is the implication that Gimli was really only attracted physically to Dwarf-women?

Look I don't mean to keep things shallow here... but actually I thought that was the original point

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well, to any who are stressing other factors behind Gimli's reaction to Galadriel: is the implication that Gimli was really only attracted physically to Dwarf-women?

We don't see much of them to really know. Does Gimli even know that they are women?

[Galin]

Well, I really meant: is the implication that Gimli didn't really find Galadriel physically attractive?

Incidentally, considering that dwarf-women are under discussion, any future flippant comments about the name Nerwen will be ignored by me in this thread.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well, I really meant: is the implication that Gimli didn't really find Galadriel physically attractive?

Sure he did. At least, IMO. But I think that his attraction to her was on a much deeper level as well. Everyone could find her physically attrctive, but not everyone found fer to also be a friend (not sure if it's the best way to describe it here). Boromir didn't, even though he's a Man, not a Dwarf.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Sure he did. At least, IMO. But I think that his attraction to her was on a much deeper level as well. Everyone could find her physically attrctive, but not everyone found fer to also be a friend (not sure if it's the best way to describe it here). Boromir didn't, even though he's a Man, not a Dwarf.

Galadriel seems able to read the hearts of others, though the person so read is at least partially aware of what she is reading. I always figured she saw something of Boromir's temptation, and he would be to some degree aware of it. I can see how he would be troubled.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Galadriel seems able to read the hearts of others, though the person so read is at least partially aware of what she is reading. I always figured she saw something of Boromir's temptation, and he would be to some degree aware of it. I can see how he would be troubled.

He continued to see Galadriel as a "which" from the "tales". During their first meeting, he wasn't decided about what he really wants (which is to take the Ring).He kept disliking, not trusting, and not respecting Galadriel because he didn't wish to understand or "see into the enemy's heart" like Gimli did.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Sure he did. At least, IMO. But I think that his attraction to her was on a much deeper level as well.

Yes, and I keep hearing that

But your initial question was not about possible deeper levels, but whether Dwarves found (or could find) Elves attractive physically; and my point is that while The Book of Lost Tales quote is dubious enough, I think Gilmi can be used as an example that it was possible, and the response 'it was more than physical' is basically off the point to that...

... again, unless anyone out there intends to imply that this deeper level really explains Gimli's devotion to Galadriel, meaning he didn't really find her fair on a physical level (shallower level though it be!).

[Galadriel]

I think this thread has deviated from 'were Dwarves attracted to Elves' to 'explain how Gilmi was attracted to Galadriel'

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I think this thread has deviated from 'were Dwarves attracted to Elves' to 'explain how Gilmi was attracted to Galadriel'

And I've no problem with that; I was wondering if it's all agreed that Gimli's example at least suggests that some Dwarves can be physically attracted to Elves (despite that there is more to Gimli's specific attraction to Galadriel than mere physical appearance).

In other words I'm wondering if there's anyone out there who doesn't agree with that much. Perhaps not, since it's such an arguably narrow enough point, but I can't say I've never been surprised when chatting Tolkien on the web!

I'm not sure I would note -- let's say for a theoretical website article or something -- that Gimli is certainly proof of some sweeping point about physical attraction between the races (I likely wouldn't even raise the matter actually), but on the other hand I'm not sure why he need be singular among Dwarves in finding Elven-women beautiful; again, even if his deeper devotion to Galadriel herself was historically more singular.

[Formendacil]

Quite apart from the case of Gimli (who, in any case, is too much of an apparent exception to be looked at too closely except as evidence that it is possible), I don't think it is, ontologically, a problem to say that Dwarves would find Elves attractive--assuming they could get over several thousand years of racial hatred and an understandable preference for the familiar over the unfamiliar (which is as much or more likely a default as trite saying that "opposites attract").

The reason I think this has to do with the origins of the Dwarves: Aulë made them because he was impatient for the Eruhíni (so were the other Valar, but that's decide the point). They were also made in imitation of them. On these bases, I think it is likely to posit that the Dwarves would still recognise Elves as the ideal on which they were based--even if it was only in some sort of subconscious matter. After all, I highly doubt the Dwarves would go around saying "we're poorly patterned copies off the Elven original."

The chief way to counter this, I suspect, would be to say that when Eru gave them souls, he also gave them a distinct sense of beauty and/or a preference for their own kind. While this is undoubtably true in part, I shy away from saying that Eru would have categorically overridden their recognition of the bodily beauty of those on which they were patterned. After all, Eru did not so much turn Aulë's creation into the Children he was trying to imitate, but merely gave them what Aulë could not: independence and a soul. Thus, it seems to me that the Dwarves would be able to recognise, by themselves, what Aulë had recognised before them--namely the beauty of the Elves.

None of which answers the question certainly, but I think it's a good starting point.

[Archaic Elf]

You can admire the way something looks without falling in love with it. You can see a sunset and think it looks amazing and wish you could capture the color of the sky in a painting and gaze at it forever. Gimli kind of did that with Galadriel's hair by placing it in a necklace and using it as a family heirloom.

Gimli may have loved Galadriel but he probably didn't want to marry her. He admired her and considered her a true friend. He would probably be pleased to hang out with her often, but that would probably be enough.

There are just so many levels to the concept of love...