about the Valar&Iluvatar - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Manardariel · 12-29-2002, 06:16 PM

When I read the begining of the Sil I was kind of confused about the whole Valar/Iluvatar thing.The first impression you get is: "Ok- Iluvatar is god. He created the earth with all its beings." And then you go wait... the Valar are gods too. They helped Iluvatar create the earth. It´s kinda like in Greece, every Valar has its one "subject", where he/she belongs and what he/she has to do. But then you go wait again. Because if the Valar are the gods and Manwe is their king(sort of like Zeus) then who is Iluvatar- the Over-overgod? And so, is the whole thing monoteistic,with only one god, (Iluvatar) or polytheistic, with all of these gods (Valar)?Or is it a combination? Or....??

I´ve read neither the HoME, nor the leters, so I´m pretty clueless... could someone help me out???

[ December 29, 2002: Message edited by: Manardariel ]

Manwe Sulimo · 12-29-2002, 06:55 PM

I tend to think of it more in a monothiestic tone, like Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Eru is God, while the Valar are the archangels and the Maiar are just angels. Valinor is Heavan, Mandos is sorta St. Peter....you get the idea. I hope.

obloquy · 12-29-2002, 08:26 PM

Interestingly, the Bible only speaks of one Archangel -- hence arch-, meaning 'chief' or 'principal'. There are different classes of angels -- cherubs, seraphs -- but only one Archangel.

Manwe Sulimo · 12-29-2002, 08:40 PM

Well, I'm not Christian and haven't gotten around to reading the Bible yet, but weren't there more than one, like Gabriel and Michael?

obloquy · 12-30-2002, 01:55 AM

Michael is the Archangel, yes, but not Gabriel.

doug*platypus · 12-30-2002, 03:45 AM

Wow, dude, your posts get shorter and shorter. There were four Archangels, Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael. The Bible isn't the only source of knowledge on the Hebrew or Christian religions. Much of what we know today comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other documents found around Qumran at various times.

Okay, back to the Tolkien question if that's alright... I think that one of the greatest things about Middle-Earth's system is that it could fit in with so many of our modern world's religions. While it does have one god above all, it's also got a pantheon like the Greeks and many other peoples had, even down to tiny little minor deities (Bombadil? Goldberry?) for specific areas. And there's even reincarnation - Durin, Glorfindel. There's also an age long past where the people of earth (okay, only the Elves) actually lived with the gods. Fantastic.

mark12_30 · 12-30-2002, 09:19 AM

I haven't got the letters here with me, but the final word should really belong to Tolkien himself, and he did discuss the Valar issue. I'll try and dig it up later, unless somebody else beats me to it; but I'd encourage those that are seriously intrigued by Tolkien to get a copy of his Letters to have on hand. They are superb reference material.

Manardariel · 12-30-2002, 11:14 AM

Where can I get the letters? Can you buy them or something?

obloquy · 12-30-2002, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Wow, dude, your posts get shorter and shorter.

I've made my share of lengthy posts. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

There were four Archangels, Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael.

Source, please.

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

LePetitChoux · 12-30-2002, 12:25 PM

I find it is more like Hinduism-there is one God (Brahman) but many deities. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

piosenniel · 12-30-2002, 12:31 PM

Obloquy:

The Catholic Church recognizes three Archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, who are mentioned in the canonical scripture.

In the apocryphal writings and other non-canon sources are mentioned several other names of Archangels.

Here is a link for the specific references:

Archangel

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

Manwe Sulimo · 12-30-2002, 01:05 PM

Well, in Hinduism there is Brahma (the Creator), Shiva (the Destroyer), and Vishnu (the Renewer/Preserver?) who are the three main deities, who together are called Brahman. Below them are upwards of thiry thousand minor deites, the gods of specific families and things. (Or was it only three thousand? I can never remember.) It's not really like Tolkien's hierarchy, with the one over-god, since Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu are of equal power and duties to the world.

obloquy · 12-31-2002, 12:38 AM

Quote:

The Catholic Church recognizes three Archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, who are mentioned in the canonical scripture.

The Catholic Church's doctrine is based around tradition more than scripture. Neither Gabriel or Raphael are ever given the title of 'archangel' in scripture, and Raphael only appears in the book of Tobias, which is considered deuterocanonical. From the source you cited:

Quote:

The name "Archangel" is given only to Saint Michael, even though sacred tradition and the liturgy of the Church attribute the same title to Saint Gabriel and Saint Raphael...

As I said, there is only one Archangel, and that is why he is called the Archangel.

[ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

Lush · 12-31-2002, 12:52 AM

We're obviously straying from the topic at hand, oblo, but I think it's clear the number of archangels is determined by each Christian in accordance to one's specific religion. You can tell me that there was only one, but as I was baptized Orthodox, I will disagree, as will our Catholic friends. And Tolkien was Catholic, in case anyone forgot. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Manwe Sulimo · 12-31-2002, 08:25 AM

And in any case, why would there be a "choir" of archangels?

12-29-2002, 06:16 PM	#1
Manardariel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 807	about the Valar&Iluvatar When I read the begining of the Sil I was kind of confused about the whole Valar/Iluvatar thing.The first impression you get is: "Ok- Iluvatar is god. He created the earth with all its beings." And then you go wait... the Valar are gods too. They helped Iluvatar create the earth. It´s kinda like in Greece, every Valar has its one "subject", where he/she belongs and what he/she has to do. But then you go wait again. Because if the Valar are the gods and Manwe is their king(sort of like Zeus) then who is Iluvatar- the Over-overgod? And so, is the whole thing monoteistic,with only one god, (Iluvatar) or polytheistic, with all of these gods (Valar)?Or is it a combination? Or....?? I´ve read neither the HoME, nor the leters, so I´m pretty clueless... could someone help me out??? [ December 29, 2002: Message edited by: Manardariel ] __________________ Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun. Blog :-)\|FanFic Dream City

12-29-2002, 06:55 PM	#2
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	I tend to think of it more in a monothiestic tone, like Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Eru is God, while the Valar are the archangels and the Maiar are just angels. Valinor is Heavan, Mandos is sorta St. Peter....you get the idea. I hope. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-29-2002, 08:40 PM	#4
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Well, I'm not Christian and haven't gotten around to reading the Bible yet, but weren't there more than one, like Gabriel and Michael? __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-30-2002, 03:45 AM	#6
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Wow, dude, your posts get shorter and shorter. There were four Archangels, Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael. The Bible isn't the only source of knowledge on the Hebrew or Christian religions. Much of what we know today comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other documents found around Qumran at various times. Okay, back to the Tolkien question if that's alright... I think that one of the greatest things about Middle-Earth's system is that it could fit in with so many of our modern world's religions. While it does have one god above all, it's also got a pantheon like the Greeks and many other peoples had, even down to tiny little minor deities (Bombadil? Goldberry?) for specific areas. And there's even reincarnation - Durin, Glorfindel. There's also an age long past where the people of earth (okay, only the Elves) actually lived with the gods. Fantastic. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

12-30-2002, 09:19 AM	#7
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	I haven't got the letters here with me, but the final word should really belong to Tolkien himself, and he did discuss the Valar issue. I'll try and dig it up later, unless somebody else beats me to it; but I'd encourage those that are seriously intrigued by Tolkien to get a copy of his Letters to have on hand. They are superb reference material. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

12-29-2002, 08:26 PM	#3
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 939	Interestingly, the Bible only speaks of one Archangel -- hence arch-, meaning 'chief' or 'principal'. There are different classes of angels -- cherubs, seraphs -- but only one Archangel.

12-30-2002, 01:55 AM	#5
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 939	Michael is the Archangel, yes, but not Gabriel.

12-30-2002, 11:14 AM	#8
Manardariel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 807	Where can I get the letters? Can you buy them or something? __________________ Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun. Blog :-)\|FanFic Dream City

12-30-2002, 12:25 PM	#10
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	I find it is more like Hinduism-there is one God (Brahman) but many deities. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

12-30-2002, 12:31 PM	#11
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Obloquy: The Catholic Church recognizes three Archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, who are mentioned in the canonical scripture. In the apocryphal writings and other non-canon sources are mentioned several other names of Archangels. Here is a link for the specific references: Archangel [ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ] __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

12-30-2002, 01:05 PM	#12
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Well, in Hinduism there is Brahma (the Creator), Shiva (the Destroyer), and Vishnu (the Renewer/Preserver?) who are the three main deities, who together are called Brahman. Below them are upwards of thiry thousand minor deites, the gods of specific families and things. (Or was it only three thousand? I can never remember.) It's not really like Tolkien's hierarchy, with the one over-god, since Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu are of equal power and duties to the world. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-31-2002, 12:52 AM	#14
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	We're obviously straying from the topic at hand, oblo, but I think it's clear the number of archangels is determined by each Christian in accordance to one's specific religion. You can tell me that there was only one, but as I was baptized Orthodox, I will disagree, as will our Catholic friends. And Tolkien was Catholic, in case anyone forgot. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

12-31-2002, 08:25 AM	#15
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	And in any case, why would there be a "choir" of archangels? __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."