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#1 |
Haunting Spirit
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The door of durin.
I did a search and it didn't turn up anything. I was wondering why the dwarves used elvish to open the door at Moria. I thought the had a bit of a feud going on?
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A red sun rises... blood has been spilt this night.- Legolas TTT Certainty of death, small chance of success... what are we waiting for?- Gimli ROTK |
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#2 | |
Ubiquitous Urulóki
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Well, the doors were made mostly by Narvi, an elf I believe (this may be wrong). Either way, Narvi was enlisted as a crafstmen by Durin III, but was a close friend of ol' Celebrimbor. I suppose that the dwarf/elf feud was just not as feudy at this time, since Durin must have associated with them slightly. Imean, remember that Celebrimbor of Hollin drew the exquisite designs on the doors, and he was most certainly and elf.
Actually, I believe this is the explanation for the fued (really more of a whacked theory). Think about this, ponder if you will, my explanation for why dwarves and elves hate each other so much. Narvi, for the sake of art, crafted the West-door of Khazad-dum with elvish inscriptions. That inscription read, I believe... Quote:
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#3 |
Haunting Spirit
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Okay, I get it now, Thanks Kransha.
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A red sun rises... blood has been spilt this night.- Legolas TTT Certainty of death, small chance of success... what are we waiting for?- Gimli ROTK |
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#4 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: A twin city divided by a great river... must be Osgiliath
Posts: 50
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Narvi was a dwarf who made the gates ("I, Narvi, made them"). Celebrimbor merely "drew these signs", in reference to the elvish script.
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#5 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Troll's larder
Posts: 195
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Hey, that explains why Narvi said that Celebrimbor "drew these signs". So, Narvi did not understand the signs? And Celebrimbor decided to play the joker and call the "Halls of the Dwarves" a "Dark Chasm"?
![]() "Tell me, Legolas, why did I come on this Quest? Little did I know where the chief peril lay! Truly Elrond spoke, saying that we could not foresee what we might meet upon our road..." - Gimli the Dwarf.
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#6 |
Shadowed Prince
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,343
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The feud beween the elves and dwarves began in the first age of the world. In short, lust for the silmarils caused the dwarves of Nogrod and King Thingol of Doriath to fall out and started a war between the two. Both sides blame the other and neither side ever forgets it.
Hollin and Moria was an exception, where the dwarves and elves were allies for the sake of trade and craftsmanship, I think. |
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#7 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Troll's larder
Posts: 195
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That ancient feud is actually never quite justified in the first place: Thingol had no claim of making Beren steal a Silmaril. He just wanted Beren to die trying, and got more than he bargained for. The Dwarves also had no claim over the Silmaril.
Nevertheless the friendship between Hollin and Khazad-dum is genuine, and not just for trade and craftmanship. When Sauron sacked Eregion for the Three Rings, and attacked Elrond's surviving forces, the Dwarves of Khazad-dum attacked Sauron's forces at the rear. (History of Galadriel and Celeborn, UT) Still, it tickles to know that Celebrimbor poked fun at Narvi's expense... Narvi: "My Lord Durin, the Western Gate is completed." Durin: "Marvellous, what do these signs mean, though?" Narvi: "Our friend Celebrimbor of Hollin drew them... they purportedly means 'Glorious halls'" Durin: "Wonderful! Present him with that Mithril waistcoat our smiths prepared."
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'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.' |
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#8 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sharkey's End
Posts: 267
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The doors were written in elvish because the western door was the one mostly used by the elves of Hollin when the dwarves and elves were friendly. Also, I think most of the time, the door was open, as a point is made when the war of the elves and Sauron is described in I think the Silmarillion, it says specifically that the doors of Moria were shut, (I don't know the exact quote). This could mean that they were normally open, obviously being guarded though.
As to why the name Moria was on the door since it was a derogatory term meaning black pit which it wasn't during its height, Gandalf could have paraphrased it, using the more common term at the time, Moria instead of Dwarrowdelf. I don't think it was a joke by Celebrimbor, as I'm sure the dwarves could speak and read elvish, as they are said to be good with languages, and since they didn't teach Khuzdul to non-dwarves, they would have to have learned elvish in order to communicate.
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#9 | |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Troll's larder
Posts: 195
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Gee, I should suppose it is more of an oversight on Prof T's part. Moria is already a common name even among the dwarves. (The name was first mentioned in the Hobbit, by the way) Besides, the dwarves do not live forever like the elves, so they tend to forget feuds or at least what caused them in the first place.
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'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.' |
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#10 |
Wight
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Behind the hills
Posts: 164
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About the feud: The dwarves of Moria may have not been involved, or have been dwarves of Belegost. It was mainly the dwarves of Nogrod that were involved with the Silmaril incident.
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#11 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The Mines of Moria
Posts: 239
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Actually, the feud started when Aule, one of the Valar, made the Dwarves without telling Iluvatar. Iluvatar says,"...and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice." His children are the Elves and Men. He never intended to make Dwarves. That is why they are the children of his adoption. Anyway, I think that is the main reason for the feud.
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#12 |
Scion of The Faithful
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,312
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Since everyone else calls it Moria, why would the Dwarves resist. Perhaps they still call it Khazad-dûm when they talk amongst themselves...
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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#13 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I suppose that it would depend on the company that the dwarves were in. With some people, they would've used Khazad-dûm, while with others: Moria. It would've depended on the dwarf. But one wonders, if it was the Dwarven door, how come Celebrinbor didn't use Runes, instead of Tengwar... after all, it was a stone door, and have you ever tried to carve Tengwar into anything? It's not easy. However, the Runes are all straight lines. How come they didn't use Runes on the gate? Sorry, just a random question that I hope adds to the topic, after all, it does indeed have to do with the Doors of Durin. (Pedo mellon a mino...) -Eowyn Skywalker |
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#14 | |
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,063
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In answer to your question, Eowyn Skywalker: Because Celebrimbor was an elf, and so he would use elvish no matter how close a friend he was to any dwarf. And most likely no elf and dwarf were close at all until Legolas and Gimli. And elves were the only ones who knew the skill of writing the script in the 'moon-letters', I believe. Another answer to that question can be found in Voralphion's post:
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#15 |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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What's so derogatory about "Moria" from a Dwarf's perspective anyway? A Black Pit is the best place to go mining, after all.
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#16 | |||
Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
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I think Eowyn Skywalker is right.
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When you read the runes, the lower (smaller) runes mean just that, in English (= the common tongue) while the upper part reads "Balin Fundinul Uzbad Khazad-dumu" So while speaking in the common tongue, the Dwarves used Moria, and it certainly wasn't any intended insult ore practical joke on Celebrimbor's part! Quote:
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#17 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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I think that the term "Moria" appeared much later - after the Dwarves fled from the Balrog. After that incident, the Dwarves probably thought the name quite fitting, even though their Kingdom remained "Khazad-Dum" to them.
I think that Gandalf said "Moria" because he was not only translating, but also explaining to the Fellowship. He used the term that would be better understood. Why did Dwarves use Elvish to write on the Doors? Because the doors were only locked when one comes from the outside. From the inside, as Gandalf tells us, they could be opened with a gentle push. The people who came from outside were mostly Elves. Quote:
However, as TGWBS said, the feud begun before either race was truly alive...
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#18 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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If you want to be really, really cynical You could also argue that doing the doors that way could have been part of a plan for future invasion (should the feud ever get that far). This revolves on four questions, 1. Do the doors ONLY respond to elvish (i.e. had Gandalf said the dwarvish word for fried, would the doors have opened?) 2. Did the doors automatically seal when closed, of did they have to be "locked" 3. Was the password the ONLY way to get the doors open, or simply a shortcut (i.e. could a large number of dwarves open and close the doors manually, like normal doors). and 4. Did the dwarves know the world to open the doors and what it meant? If the answer to 1 is "yes" and to 3 and 4 is "no", you might have the follwing scenario. Celembrimbor writes the words on the door, in Elvish, which the Dwarves do not speak or read. The Dwarves open an close the doors in a conventional manner with muscle power, from the inside like normal doors of this type (we don't really know if the opening spell works on opening the doors from the inside) Alternitively Celembrimbor tells them the word, but doen't tell them the meaning (i.e. he tells them it's a gibberish word that he made up for the locking spell, or that it means something other than it does.) You now have a situation where the secret for opening the doors is known to few, if any dwarves (who don't read or speak Elvish, but is immediately obvios to any elf who comes there and can read (like say an armed force interested in breaking in to take the fued to the Dwarven Halls) assuming they can figure out the trick (and since Gandalf's difficulty seems to arise mostly from a temporary mistranslation of one of the words, which an elf likey would not do, it would likey be childs play for them). As a protective defense against men or orcs Durins doors are likey impregnable, but against elves they would be pretty much useless.
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#19 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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Well, if you want to be that cynical...
There was friendship between them. I would call that place the Second Bree, because you have a similar situation of two races ith rough edges against each other living together without a war breaking up immediately. Plus, Dwarves do not teach their language. They wouldn't be able to understand the Elves unless they learned Elvish. They'd recognize the word "friend". Edit: Quote:
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 05-25-2011 at 04:39 PM. Reason: added relevant quote |
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#20 |
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 893
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I think it was indeed a little slip by JRRT.
Not Gandalf's description, because as Galadriel says it could be on-the-spot translation. But the elaborate drawing Tolkien made of the inscription also says Moria, and Khazad-Dum apparently wasn't called Moria until the whole unfortunate Balrog incident. Hollin and Khazad-Dum seem to be as close as the dwarves and elves ever got, so its logical that the inscription would be in elvish. What we don't know is the elvish for Khazad-Dum before it was called Moria - that's what should be written on the doors. On the other hand perhaps it always was Moria but with a less dire spin, would something like 'dark caverns' be appropriate? Meanwhile on the 1st Age feuds, refugees from Nogrod and Belegost moved to Khazad-Dum after the War of Wrath at the start of the Second Age. Interesting to think that Moria is by far the oldest Middle-Earth settlement that we know of, going right back to the First Age and probably before, so at least 7000 years old. Though there might well be four similar Dwarven strongholds in the East (Yellow and Red Mountains I'd reckon), and maybe Mount Gundabad might count?
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#21 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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Quite possible.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#22 |
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 893
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Indeed G55,
how about 'Pleasantly shady grotto' ? ![]() 'mor' has to be 'Dark' (ish) - no getting around that!
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Rumil of Coedhirion |
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#23 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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"Mor" does mean "dark", and not necessarily in a bad way. There are names like Mordor, and like Morwen...
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#24 | ||
Wisest of the Noldor
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5. Were the "real" motivations of Celebrimbor completely different from the ones he's actually described as having? (And how does that work, exactly?) Quote:
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#25 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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Why exactly are we out of the blue suspecting Celebrimbor of double-dealing?
Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? We might as well find out that the Endless Stairs were "really" made by Dwarves. And all these abysses were made in order to keep their Elf prisoners from escaping. ![]() Absurd? I rather thought so. ![]()
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#26 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Heredity?
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#27 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
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The picture of the door in the modern book is (obviously) not a photo of the actual doors, but the picture is still effective enough, giving an idea of what it might have looked like in general, including a general representation of some internal language and script. The runes in The Hobbit are Anglo-Saxon based, but since the actual runes as used by the Elves and Dwarves are 'similar enough' in design (at least), they lend an effective element visually, to the story. In short, I see nothing wrong with imagining hadhodrond on the actual doors -- despite Moria being written in the picture, just as one must imagine Durin and Narvi are not on the real doors -- also despite being written in the picture in the modern book. Durin and Narvi can't be on the real doors, as these names are not only not the real names of these Dwarves, they are translations made by someone who knows Old Norse -- a language that did not exist when the actual doors were made, and still very much in the future by Frodo's day even. |
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#28 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom
Posts: 273
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I prefer not to regard the inclusion of Moria on the doors as a mistake on the part of Tolkien.
We know of the inscription from Frodo's contribution to The Red Book of Westmarch, written some years after the events. Frodo made no recordings, took no photographs and didn't keep a diary. Considering what he went through before writing the story, it's remarkable how much detail he remembered about those doors and Gandalf's comments. I'm sure we can forgive his lapse of memory when he used the name most familliar to him when he drew the sketch and wrote down what he remembered of Gandalf's translation. . |
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#29 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Also, one can claim Moria was a purposed use of a name (in writing even), by Tolkien, as this was known to the reader. |
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#30 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#31 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
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![]() But the Dwarves no more had names in Old Norse than the Rohirrim had names in Old English... only the modern translator can put these in the book. As Tolkien realized the absurdity of 'Balin' written on the (drawing of the) tomb, the same must go for Durin and Narvi. Frodo might have written Moria for hadhodrond, but he cannot have written Durin and Narvi, nor can anyone else living 'back then' (in Frodo's day) have written these names. For another example: Samwise wasn't Sam's real name, he was called Ban (for short): it would be like a letter being written in actual Westron with the name 'Samwise' in it! this name would mean nothing to the Hobbits; it's an invention of the modern translator (based on a language not yet arisen in Frodo's day). |
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#32 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Anyway, with all due respect, Selmo, I think using the "translator-conceit" to get out of the difficulty is preferable to an explanation that, in my view, tends to undermine much of the story. EDIT:X'd with Galin and Kuru.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. Last edited by Nerwen; 05-26-2011 at 09:10 PM. Reason: typo. |
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#33 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
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Personally, that's the explanation that makes the most sense to me. As for the depiction of the Doors in the book, wouldn't that have been the work of Frodo, since LOTR is taken from the Red Book? If Frodo were to draw a picture of the Doors from memory, it seems logical he might have rendered the inscription just as he'd heard Gandalf say it, using "Moria".
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#34 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Here's what we have (harping on this string for those not interested in Appendix F):
A) Moria -- Elvish B) Hadhodrond -- Elvish (either name is possible on the actual doors! and A might be in Frodo's original drawing, as suggested) C) unknown Dwarf-name, inner -- Dwarvish language D) unknown Dwarf-name, outer -- Mannish language (D is the likely name for a 'public' door like the Doors of Moria) _____ E) translated (outer) Dwarf-name -- Old Norse (these appear in the drawing in the book published in the 1950s: Durin, Narvi hail from Old Norse and represent some unknown outer names of these bearded beings) _____ If known, A through D can appear on something original to Frodo's day, like the doors, a tomb, a letter. All these languages are 'internal' and are imagined to be actually spoken way back when the story takes place. Example E is wholly different, and cannot be found on anything supposed to be original (anything made in Frodo's time). Last edited by Galin; 05-26-2011 at 10:12 PM. |
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#35 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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In case anyone's still not getting it: according to the "translator conceit", only names derived from Tolkien's own conlangs are "real". Anything from another source is supposed to be merely a latter-day "translation".
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#36 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Thank you Nerwen! Your concision trumps my 'chart like' post!
The translation conceit can get quite complicated (for instance 'Meriadoc' was really Kalimac... but seemingly Tom Bombadil is really what the Hobbits called this being 'back then')... but that's what makes it fun in my opinion! |
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#37 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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I think the chart's necessary; the concept of the Dwarves having both real and false (i.e. "translated") pseudonyms is a bit brain-twisting.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. Last edited by Nerwen; 05-26-2011 at 11:37 PM. Reason: added comment. |
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