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10-05-2006, 02:52 PM | #41 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
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10-05-2006, 06:16 PM | #42 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Lalwende - I knew I remembered some previous discussion on the topic of Bombadil and the Ainulindale. Thanks for the link!
Drigel wrote: Quote:
However, both quantum mechanics and the big bang have been well-known since the 1920s-1930s. So it's certainly not impossible that Tolkien had some basic familiarity with them. Raynor wrote: Quote:
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10-06-2006, 04:18 PM | #43 |
Fading Fëanorion
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
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Though Tolkien might have been familiar with physics, I really doubt he had them in the back of his head when he wrote the Music of the Ainur. There are probably parallels to other myths of creation, I don't know. Regardless, I just happen to think that the creation of the world by music is a breath-takingly romantic idea. It doesn't deserve to be spoiled by cold science.
Concerning the meaning of the Second Theme, I came to believe that it signifies the Marring of Arda. The First Theme starts as the Creation of Arda in perfection. Then Melkor tries to bring in his own stuff and it ends in chaos. If there was no second theme and the Music continued with the third now, we probably wouldn't miss it: Arda is created, then we have endless war between the Valar and Melkor, then Melkor is chained and Eru's children enter. Works perfectly to me, no gap. What is special about the Second Theme is that, in the end, Melkor had the mastery. Sure, he did have mastery over Middle-earth from the raising of the Pelóri until his chaining, but I doubt this is enough to deserve a theme of its own. I never regarded the Music as a sort of chronology, with each note symbolising some event. Horribly simplified, I see it as a 'manual' for world-builders. Eru shows its children how the world is going to be like. Now, this would mean that Melkor, for a time, has the mastery over the creation of the world. While his influence on the First Theme I imagine to have been more on the 'snowflake-level', his influence on the second was serious - and I can only think of the Marring in this respect. What I wondered about is, Eru tells Melkor that nothing can be played that has not its source in him. This holds explicitly for Melkor's discords. Wouldn't this then mean that all the evil that Melkor brought into the world has its source in Ilúvatar, too? I mean, where else could it have come from if Melkor couldn't invent it himself? And if Melkor deserves punishment for his deeds, why doesn't Eru? I hope I won't be stoned for this blasphemy... |
10-06-2006, 06:39 PM | #44 |
Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
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Don't worry, no stones.
The way I take this passage is that Eru created the phenomenon of Music, so if Melkor chose to introduce a loud strain of dissonance, Eru could still make some pleasant music result. He understood how to do this since this music and its instruments are of his thought, and have their source in him. I do not think that this implies that Eru is evil. It is interesting that later on the degree of evil in Sauron seems to be tied to how self-serving he is. Melkor is clearly shown to be such a one. Perhaps these higher beings are in a perfect balance, so that they should be seen as neither good nor bad entities, but Melkor has become somehow unbalanced, falling toward the evil end of the spectrum. Maybe this is why his brother Manwë is toward the side of good, in order to recover the balance. I mention this only because it has troubled me that these two were brothers in the thought of Iluvatar, and it is one way I could reconcile the thought of it. |
10-07-2006, 10:00 AM | #45 | ||
Fading Fëanorion
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But the Ainur were the offspring of Eru's thought, so Melkor's vanity and lust for power had its source in Eru. This way, again, evil has its source in Eru. I just keep sticking to this because Eru is always portrayed as being wholly good, and I don't think this is possible. |
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10-07-2006, 11:23 AM | #46 | ||
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Tolkien the Hyper-Calvanist
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10-07-2006, 12:14 PM | #47 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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I don't know - I've always seen Tolkien's treatment of evil in his works as rather Augustinian. Augustine wrote in The City of God:
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10-07-2006, 02:16 PM | #48 | |
Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Even though Melkor is a product of Ilúvatar’s thought, this does not necessarily mean that Ilúvatar has an element of evil within him, though he undoubtedly can conceive of it. If Melkor had been a product or aspect of Illuvatar's personality, than you would indeed be right. But as it is, one can imagine evil without being evil one's self. |
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11-01-2006, 09:03 AM | #49 | |||
Princess of Skwerlz
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Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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I beg pardon for joining in this discussion so belatedly, but as I was away from home when it began, I have only now been able to read the contributions so far. I've enjoyed the many good thoughts here!
I do like this part of the Sil complex, and I too enjoyed listening to the spoken version. As a musician, of course the connection between creation and music fascinates me most. C. S. Lewis' use of a similar idea for the creation of Narnia was mentioned only briefly, yet is the one reference that occurred to me first when I read the Ainulindalë. I went back to reread it now (in The Magician's Nephew) to compare the similaraties and differences. Narnia has only one creative singer, Aslan. Quote:
Then the stars join in the song: Quote:
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This brings me to a great work of musical genius which concerns the Biblical creation story: Haydn's Creation oratorio. It is a work I know well and dearly love, especially for the picturesque nature of the instrumental passages, which are directly related to what is happening at that point in time - primordial chaos, rippling runs for water, a great roar for the lion, etc. (For those who are interested, there's more description here: Creation. Of course, it only musically describes creation, which is not taking place by means of music; still, it's wonderfully inspiring to hear a musical version of the creation story. I actually like Tolkien's version, which introduces his idea of sub-creativity in having the Ainur actively involved in the process of creation. I think it's a clever way of reconciling the pantheistic myths with the One God of Judeo-Christian theology.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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04-18-2007, 01:22 AM | #50 | |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
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Forgive me for resurrecting an ancient thread, but I'm just returning to the Silmarillion after20 years, and I have to talk about it!
Specifically, if I may, I'd like to agree with this "blasphemy" and perhaps, go a step farther toward the dark side : Quote:
There is something here that transcends good and evil; the idea of the beauty of sadness and the creative power of dissonance. Logically, it fits with the idea of the universe as a work of art - the introduction of conflict and dissonance is important in all the arts, whether the tension between colors or asymmetrical compositions in the visual arts; dissonance or syncopation in music, or conflict in literature; chaos and discord tend to spur richer creations. Now, obviously once the world is created and we're thrust into the work of art itself, these things are depicted as evil - this is part of the perspective of one inside the story, and therefore, necessary - but I see the Ainulindale as "outside" the world/story (hence the different style), and from this perspective 'good' and 'evil' collapse back to a single root. "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite."' Absolutely says that Melkor, his discordance, and all that arise from it originates with Eru; which I don't so much see as meaning Eru is partly evil, but that Eru is simply a creator, transcending good and evil; that what we call evil is a creative force, just as what we call good is. "For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." If this doesn't seem to fit with Tolkien's Catholicism, bear in mind I'm suggesting this is a sort of overarching solution to the "problem of evil" as seen from a place outside of space and time, so to speak, where such dualities as good and evil dissolve; this doesn't mean that the dualities are meaningless within the creation; paradoxically, it's essential to creation that they remain separate within it while being unified outside of it. OK, all I really wanted to say is this book is good enough for Jehovah! (Stone her!) |
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05-09-2011, 05:53 AM | #51 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: May 2011
Location: sardinia
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from the beginning
If you like you could thank me to resurrect an ancient thread I start with a question and post here a interesting theory about music and creation.
The creation myths has to answer some questions that could be not grasped with normal logic. It are the contradictions that speak to the unconscious mind of the reader that had to find an internal conciliation . My question: Manwe:air Ulmo: water Aule & c: earth Melkor: fire ? (this is the question ) But not the eternal fire (that is both with Iluvatar both on Arda) just a part of it. This is the tale : The Cosmic Sacrificing Satan ------------------------------------------- In the beginning, the Creator was alone, in the ratio 1:1, and having unopposed Will, Being and Consciousness, he deigned to create a universe to enjoy so he moved in a dream away from himself and looked back. This was the Ratio of 2:1, but being of God's own nature, it was perfect and equivalent and he only stared back at himself. This in music is the "octave". Being perfect has significant problems. Anything that is perfect has no reason to change and no reason to move, so that the Creator was at a standstill. No "time" or "space" existed. Without "time" or "space" the universe collapsed back into the unsullied being of the Creator. Again and again the Creator tried to create a universe to enjoy but each attempt brought the same results. No time or space and no change or movement, so that his creation kept going "poof" and dissolving back into his perfect nature. Being lonely, he decided to create companions for himself so he created the Archangels which were also perfect, one on each side of him. To his right was Lucifer, the light-bringer and guardian of energy, and to his left Gabriel, the guardian of matter. These stood in Ratios of 3:2 and 4:3 and were the first Holy Trinity with no faults or flaws. Still, being perfect in Trinity, the Creator was stymied. There was no "time" in which events could occur nor "space" for them to occur in. So he asked a favor of the Archangels; asking who loved him enough to diminish himself and take on the role of the Satan, which means opposer. This would be a being that would create asymmetry in the universe, making it imperfect, and allowing things to have a wish for movement and change. Something would need to act as a stopgap, not allowing any created thing to achieve perfection. This would enable the creation to rotate and swirl in an everlasting movement of agony and hope. Lucifer the first born stepped up and declared that he would diminish himself. In music this is the most dissonant interval, in a ratio of 45:32, and is called the Devil's Interval, and is as far away from the 1 as possible. So the Creator let Lucifer be diminished, and asymmetry was born, and with it, "time" and "space". Lucifer became the "Cosmic Prodigal Son", who denies any created thing from reaching perfection, because if any single thing reached perfection, the entire universe would disappear. In music, Satan created all the dissonance, and the Devil's Interval (1 -- bV -- I) is the ground root of all musical movement by reason of it's extreme dissonance which demands resolution, and makes music as well as all things "move" and "change". In Music this is called the Cycle of Fifths/Fourths and it has 12 stations or "notes" which rotate around in an endless spiral. Just as the Major scale is the static law of music; all scales and chords coming from it, the cycle of Fifths is the involutionary movement, the Divine Fiat of the creator, and movements along the Cycle of Fourths are the hope of all things who have found themselves in the world of multiplicity to return to the bosom of the Creator. But they are not allowed to do so, by the denying force of the opposer. |
05-09-2011, 08:01 AM | #52 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Melkor played jazz. The free-form improvisation and syncopated beats threw off the classicist snobs among the Ainur.
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