Ainulindale in Latin - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aiwendil · 04-24-2006, 02:21 PM

I've decided to put my (rather inexpert) Latin translation of the Ainulindale on my web space. If there are any Latin scholars out there who'd like to point out my grammatical mistakes, I'd certainly appreciate it.

Anguirel · 04-24-2006, 02:46 PM

Well...I do wonder how you're declining "Ainur"-third declension neuter, as in "mare"?

Formendacil · 04-24-2006, 02:49 PM

Sweet, sweet, sweet.

I love Latin, I love the Silm. Beautiful!

Another reason to try and actually learn more of the language...

Mmmm.... it looks so beautifully Catholic in Latin.

Aiwendil · 04-24-2006, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Well...I do wonder how you're declining "Ainur"-third declension neuter, as in "mare"?

Well, since the Quenya singular is "Ainu", I decided to treat it as a fourth declension neuter like "cornu". I know, fourth declension neuter is extremely rare; but "Ainu" does rather look like "cornu" and "genu" to me.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 04-26-2006, 08:54 AM

Love it. What better way to learn a language? Cheers Aiwendil!

the guy who be short · 04-26-2006, 10:59 AM

It's sad, but I've bookmarked that as a resource. Far more incentive is given here than in those Cambridge textbooks. Thank you.

Ithaeliel · 05-06-2006, 12:18 PM

That is amazing! How long did that take you?

I wish I could still read most of it... it seems like years since I took Latin, even though it's only been one.

Heh... it would be fun if it were written like Roman script (no spaces or punctuation).

the guy who be short · 05-07-2006, 06:51 AM

Or 'u's.

(That would be a bit much for me.)

Nurumaiel · 05-07-2006, 11:30 AM

How wonderful! For the past two years I've been studying Latin on and off. I've finally found a study method that works for me, and now I have inspiration to really study hard. Several other members of my family will be delighted as well.

Excellent work. I can only image how challenging and time-consuming it must be, but it is well-appreciated.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 05-04-2007, 04:20 PM

Wow! This is just beautiful! It must have been quite a lot of work. Only I must say, the declination of "Ainu" in plural looks quite... strange. But that's normal, of course, adopting words from other languages leads to transform them, and especially Latin had its share of it... but plural "Ainua" must've sounded terrible in Elves' ears

Anyway... great work!
(it occured to me that I might attempt to rewrite Ainulindalë in ancient greek, but who'd bother to read it?

)

Nogrod · 05-04-2007, 05:34 PM

Just great! I do love this text!

And it reminds me of my days at the university as well...

But to make a semi-critical point also: you seem to have adopted a systematic way of cutting the sentences with a comma before every "and". That was the first thing that I noticed. Then I started seeing more rhytmical punctuations that made me think of the style and sounding of the sentences written there. And they were getting increasingly familiar...

I don't know if that's a conscious decision, but for what I know that's the Vulgata Latin and not the classical or "archaic" or the "later" one.

Using Vulgata's Biblical dicta might be well grounded in regards to Tolkien's text (he himself seems to be somewhat happy with a similar kind of solution but the English version feels not as underlinedly Biblical as this Latin translation). I do not wish to challenge your choice if it's a deliberate one anyhow.

But to my ears it sounds more like the Vulgata (very humanly mistranslated as all the historians know and as such more than a child of it's time) than the Ur-Myth from the distant past I myself see Tolkien's Ainulindalë to "come from" or where I would see Tolkien to reach out.

But that's a minor point and anyway your version is just splendid!

Aiwendil · 05-04-2007, 06:04 PM

I'm glad you like it.

Legate: Yes, some of the declensions of proper names look strange, partly because Quenya is itself a language that declines nouns. It's particularly striking in cases where the form we usually encounter in Quenya is the plural, since I based all decisions as to how to decline names on the nominative singular. So for example instead of starting with "Ainur" (the form we see most often) and trying to decide how to decline it, I started with "Ainu". I also made the somewhat dubious decision to treat "Ainu" as a (very rare) 4th declension neuter, since it resembles "cornu" and "genu". A lot of proper nouns were troublesome, actually - for instance, "Elf" - I vacillated between translating this as "nympha" (or something along those lines) and (what I eventually chose) just rendering it "Alfus".

Nogrod: The somewhat vulgate style was not really a conscious decision on my part, though I agree that the finished product looks more like late Imperial Latin than like Cicero. I think it's a result of my attempt to preserve the style of the English, which has a lot of ". . ., and . . ., and . . ." sort of stuff. But now that I think about it, I suppose I did also have the Vulgate Bible in the back of my mind - or rather the little of the Vulgate that I've actually read (about half of Genesis).

I have been working, rather haltingly, on the Valaquenta as well, and when (and if) I finish it, I'll put it up also.

Edit: Actually, I've just remembered it was not the Vulgata that I read parts of; it was the older Vetus Latina - though that's still "Late Latin" and differs significantly from the Classical style.

Nogrod · 05-04-2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I think it's a result of my attempt to preserve the style of the English, which has a lot of ". . ., and . . ., and . . ." sort of stuff.

Which English?

Sorry. No offence or anything like that. I do admire your work.

Just couldn't resist this one in relation to the nicely detailed differences of Latin we're speaking here about...

(Nicely detailed? The real cognoscenti would give us a much more detailed analysis of styles...

)

the guy who be short · 05-14-2007, 09:17 AM

I have my Latin Language 1 GCSE exam tomorrow. This is a great resource! Gratias ago.

Aiwendil · 08-28-2007, 05:52 PM

I finished and added the Valaquenta. Again, be warned that my Latin skills are not all that great and that the text is far from guaranteed to be grammatically correct. If anyone finds mistakes, I'd be much obbliged if they would point them out to me.

Wanderer of Light · 09-07-2007, 02:06 PM

Did you write it in church-Latin or Classical Latin?

Aiwendil · 09-07-2007, 03:05 PM

My aim was Classical Latin, though I didn't hesitate to use a few ecclesiastical words when appropriate (like 'daemon'). But I think the style tends toward later imperial Latin rather than that of Caesar or Cicero.

Wanderer of Light · 10-06-2007, 12:05 PM

How far are you with translating the next bit?

I really can't wait for it

....

Although it is quit troublesome I can understand most of it with aid of a dictionairy and my school book

.

Aiwendil · 10-07-2007, 02:05 PM

Not far, I'm afraid. Though I am working on it.

Aiwendil · 10-31-2010, 09:20 PM

Well, after more than three years I've put revised versions of the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta, as well as what I've done so far of the Quenta Silmarillion up here. I've decided to base my translations not on the '77 published Silmarillion but rather on what one might consider the 'veritable' documents from Middle-earth. The upshot of this for these early chapters is that some material found in 'Of the Beginning of Days' in the published book is here placed in the Ainulindale, Tolkien's original chapter titles have been used, and the text concerning the Ents and Eagles has been broken off as a separate chapter from 'Of Aule and the Dwarves'.

Any comments, criticisms, or (especially) suggestions or corrections would be greatly appreciated!

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 11-01-2010, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanderer of Light

How far are you with translating the next bit?

I really can't wait for it

....

Whoa! Zoetermeer? If you're still haunting these parts, Wanderer, then you'll have to know that there are a couple of Downers who have visited your town.

Great stuff, Aiwendil. I will check that out when I have some time.

The Might · 11-01-2010, 03:40 PM

Flamma Immortale !!!

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-01-2010, 05:08 PM

The other chapters are pretty cool to have - must have been quite a job. I have to read them when I have a piece of free time

findorfin · 11-17-2010, 09:05 AM

This makes me wish I had continued studying Latin at Uni!

Aiwendil · 05-03-2011, 09:40 PM

I've finished translating chapter 3 of the Quenta Silmarillion and have put it at my (new) web space. I've also made a number of corrections to the earlier chapters. Of course, the standard warnings about my non-expertise in Latin still apply.

I think that next I'll switch things up a little bit and translate some stuff from later in the Legendarium, instead of plodding ahead with QS chapter 4. Maybe I'll start on some of the Turin or Tuor material.

04-24-2006, 02:21 PM	#1
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Ainulindale in Latin I've decided to put my (rather inexpert) Latin translation of the Ainulindale on my web space. If there are any Latin scholars out there who'd like to point out my grammatical mistakes, I'd certainly appreciate it.

04-24-2006, 02:46 PM	#2
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Well...I do wonder how you're declining "Ainur"-third declension neuter, as in "mare"? __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

04-24-2006, 02:49 PM	#3
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,326	Sweet, sweet, sweet. I love Latin, I love the Silm. Beautiful! Another reason to try and actually learn more of the language... Mmmm.... it looks so beautifully Catholic in Latin. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

04-26-2006, 08:54 AM	#5
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Love it. What better way to learn a language? Cheers Aiwendil! __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond Last edited by Eomer of the Rohirrim; 07-03-2006 at 01:00 PM.

05-06-2006, 12:18 PM	#7
Ithaeliel Cornus Caliga Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Five-hundred-twenty-five thousand, six hundred minutes from here Posts: 710	That is amazing! How long did that take you? I wish I could still read most of it... it seems like years since I took Latin, even though it's only been one. Heh... it would be fun if it were written like Roman script (no spaces or punctuation). __________________ That best portion of a good man's life, His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. .................William Wordsworth

04-26-2006, 10:59 AM	#6
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	It's sad, but I've bookmarked that as a resource. Far more incentive is given here than in those Cambridge textbooks. Thank you.

05-07-2006, 06:51 AM	#8
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	Or 'u's. (That would be a bit much for me.)

05-07-2006, 11:30 AM	#9
Nurumaiel Vice of Twilight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on a mountain Posts: 1,121	How wonderful! For the past two years I've been studying Latin on and off. I've finally found a study method that works for me, and now I have inspiration to really study hard. Several other members of my family will be delighted as well. Excellent work. I can only image how challenging and time-consuming it must be, but it is well-appreciated. __________________ In the fury of the moment I can see the Master's hand in every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand.

05-04-2007, 04:20 PM	#10
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Wow! This is just beautiful! It must have been quite a lot of work. Only I must say, the declination of "Ainu" in plural looks quite... strange. But that's normal, of course, adopting words from other languages leads to transform them, and especially Latin had its share of it... but plural "Ainua" must've sounded terrible in Elves' ears Anyway... great work! (it occured to me that I might attempt to rewrite Ainulindalë in ancient greek, but who'd bother to read it? ) __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

05-04-2007, 05:34 PM	#11
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	Just great! I do love this text! And it reminds me of my days at the university as well... But to make a semi-critical point also: you seem to have adopted a systematic way of cutting the sentences with a comma before every "and". That was the first thing that I noticed. Then I started seeing more rhytmical punctuations that made me think of the style and sounding of the sentences written there. And they were getting increasingly familiar... I don't know if that's a conscious decision, but for what I know that's the Vulgata Latin and not the classical or "archaic" or the "later" one. Using Vulgata's Biblical dicta might be well grounded in regards to Tolkien's text (he himself seems to be somewhat happy with a similar kind of solution but the English version feels not as underlinedly Biblical as this Latin translation). I do not wish to challenge your choice if it's a deliberate one anyhow. But to my ears it sounds more like the Vulgata (very humanly mistranslated as all the historians know and as such more than a child of it's time) than the Ur-Myth from the distant past I myself see Tolkien's Ainulindalë to "come from" or where I would see Tolkien to reach out. But that's a minor point and anyway your version is just splendid! __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... Last edited by Nogrod; 05-04-2007 at 05:38 PM.

05-04-2007, 06:04 PM	#12
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I'm glad you like it. Legate: Yes, some of the declensions of proper names look strange, partly because Quenya is itself a language that declines nouns. It's particularly striking in cases where the form we usually encounter in Quenya is the plural, since I based all decisions as to how to decline names on the nominative singular. So for example instead of starting with "Ainur" (the form we see most often) and trying to decide how to decline it, I started with "Ainu". I also made the somewhat dubious decision to treat "Ainu" as a (very rare) 4th declension neuter, since it resembles "cornu" and "genu". A lot of proper nouns were troublesome, actually - for instance, "Elf" - I vacillated between translating this as "nympha" (or something along those lines) and (what I eventually chose) just rendering it "Alfus". Nogrod: The somewhat vulgate style was not really a conscious decision on my part, though I agree that the finished product looks more like late Imperial Latin than like Cicero. I think it's a result of my attempt to preserve the style of the English, which has a lot of ". . ., and . . ., and . . ." sort of stuff. But now that I think about it, I suppose I did also have the Vulgate Bible in the back of my mind - or rather the little of the Vulgate that I've actually read (about half of Genesis). I have been working, rather haltingly, on the Valaquenta as well, and when (and if) I finish it, I'll put it up also. Edit: Actually, I've just remembered it was not the Vulgata that I read parts of; it was the older Vetus Latina - though that's still "Late Latin" and differs significantly from the Classical style. Last edited by Aiwendil; 05-04-2007 at 06:22 PM.

05-14-2007, 09:17 AM	#14
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	I have my Latin Language 1 GCSE exam tomorrow. This is a great resource! Gratias ago.

08-28-2007, 05:52 PM	#15
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I finished and added the Valaquenta. Again, be warned that my Latin skills are not all that great and that the text is far from guaranteed to be grammatically correct. If anyone finds mistakes, I'd be much obbliged if they would point them out to me.

09-07-2007, 02:06 PM	#16
Wanderer of Light Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Zoetermeer, The Netherlands Posts: 11	Did you write it in church-Latin or Classical Latin? __________________ "Ick ben de opstandinge ende het leven: die in my gelooft sal leven/ alwaer hy oock gestorven:" ^ Joannis 11:25

09-07-2007, 03:05 PM	#17
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	My aim was Classical Latin, though I didn't hesitate to use a few ecclesiastical words when appropriate (like 'daemon'). But I think the style tends toward later imperial Latin rather than that of Caesar or Cicero.

10-06-2007, 12:05 PM	#18
Wanderer of Light Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Zoetermeer, The Netherlands Posts: 11	How far are you with translating the next bit? I really can't wait for it .... Although it is quit troublesome I can understand most of it with aid of a dictionairy and my school book . __________________ "Ick ben de opstandinge ende het leven: die in my gelooft sal leven/ alwaer hy oock gestorven:" ^ Joannis 11:25

10-07-2007, 02:05 PM	#19
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Not far, I'm afraid. Though I am working on it.

10-31-2010, 09:20 PM	#20
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Well, after more than three years I've put revised versions of the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta, as well as what I've done so far of the Quenta Silmarillion up here. I've decided to base my translations not on the '77 published Silmarillion but rather on what one might consider the 'veritable' documents from Middle-earth. The upshot of this for these early chapters is that some material found in 'Of the Beginning of Days' in the published book is here placed in the Ainulindale, Tolkien's original chapter titles have been used, and the text concerning the Ents and Eagles has been broken off as a separate chapter from 'Of Aule and the Dwarves'. Any comments, criticisms, or (especially) suggestions or corrections would be greatly appreciated!

11-01-2010, 03:40 PM	#22
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Flamma Immortale !!! __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

11-01-2010, 05:08 PM	#23
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	The other chapters are pretty cool to have - must have been quite a job. I have to read them when I have a piece of free time __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

11-17-2010, 09:05 AM	#24
findorfin Newly Deceased Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 6	This makes me wish I had continued studying Latin at Uni!

05-03-2011, 09:40 PM	#25
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I've finished translating chapter 3 of the Quenta Silmarillion and have put it at my (new) web space. I've also made a number of corrections to the earlier chapters. Of course, the standard warnings about my non-expertise in Latin still apply. I think that next I'll switch things up a little bit and translate some stuff from later in the Legendarium, instead of plodding ahead with QS chapter 4. Maybe I'll start on some of the Turin or Tuor material.