Orc haute couture - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 04-06-2011, 12:30 PM

It's written that orcs were once elves, but perverted. These vile mockeries are beast-like, yet also a bit too much like us humans. Orcs aren't farmers or millers or poets, but warriors, thieves, defilers and spoilers. They don't make, but take.

Pretty counterculture.

So why did orcs feel the need to wear clothes (not armor)?

Inziladun · 04-06-2011, 01:21 PM

Just armour? That doesn't exactly conform to the body, I'm thinking. Even Morgoth and Sauron probably thought "Gah! I don't need to see that!" You guys find some clothes!

Morthoron · 04-06-2011, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

So why did orcs feel the need to wear clothes (not armor)?

Did they wear clothes? I've read no treatises on Orkish humility. In any case, they would be much more intimidating with Orc pork dangling forth.

Inziladun · 04-06-2011, 02:27 PM

Intimidating? Maybe. But keep in mind that Melkor and Sauron had other troops than Orcs. Having Orcs exposed could have a deleterious effect on fighting proficiency and focus.

EDIT- Also, just imagine the chafing if all they had was armour!

Pitchwife · 04-06-2011, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Did they wear clothes?

They definitely did. Frodo disguised himself with orc-clothes in Mordor:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LotR Book VI, The Tower of Cirith Ungol

There were long hairy breeches of some unclean beast-fell, and a tunic of dirty leather.

As for why they'd wear clothes, hm... sunburn protection?

EDIT: x-ed with Zil

Morthoron · 04-06-2011, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

They definitely did. Frodo disguised himself with orc-clothes in Mordor:

"There were long hairy breeches...."

But, but...ummm...those aren't breeches!

alatar · 04-06-2011, 02:40 PM

What I mean is that there is no biological or cultural reason that orcs need to wear clothing. We wear it for protection from the environment. Certain aboriginal tribes wear next to nothing; their children may have not so much as a stitch.

And orcs enjoy flouting convention, and what better way to differentiate themselves from 'those elves' (who create) than to not wear clothing?

Funny that most posters here think that orcs reproduce sexually, and that orcs might just be 'modest.' Who knew?

Anyway, I'm not even sure why elves wear clothing, but I think it's because Tolkien has elves being much like us, and as we wear clothes (especially if Middle Earth is in the northern hemisphere...).

Inziladun · 04-06-2011, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

What I mean is that there is no biological or cultural reason that orcs need to wear clothing. We wear it for protection from the environment. Certain aboriginal tribes wear next to nothing; their children may have not so much as a stitch.

And orcs enjoy flouting convention, and what better way to differentiate themselves from 'those elves' (who create) than to not wear clothing?

The environmental reason would stand then, I think. Angband was in a pretty cold location, and I doubt armour alone would have been much protection against that. Also, I was semi-serious about the chafing. Even the thin body-armour worn by today's police and military can cause problems if one fails to wear a t-shirt under it.

alatar · 04-06-2011, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The environmental reason would stand then, I think. Angband was in a pretty cold location, and I doubt armour alone would have been much protection against that. Also, I was semi-serious about the chafing. Even the thin body-armour worn by today's police and military can cause problems if one fails to wear a t-shirt under it.

I agree regarding armor.

Environment? Elves are cold-resistant; why not orcs?

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-06-2011, 02:54 PM

I think the "environmental protection" is an argument, even in the general sense that some clothing is better than no clothing when it comes to protection even from, say, thorny bushes. And the psychological effect, like what Zil said... and as it was also mentioned, at least since the invention of armor the clothes were a necessity. You can't really wear an armor on bare body (or you can, but that will effectively kill you).

Also, clothes can serve as distinguishing marks - "we are Cool Clan XY, wearing the symbol of a dragon on our chest", stuff like that. Also "I am the chieftain, I can wear the coolest and most intimidating armor of all; Elves, fear me; yes, it was me who killed your grandfather, surely you have heard the tales about the big Orc clad in big black-and-red-striped cloak, mwahaha".

And in the battle, generally, clothes also can be important for distinction, if they have the coat of arms (although everyone will most likely know which side the Orcs fight on, even without the coat of arms - but maybe when it comes to clash between two different Orc tribes... think of Gorbag's Dead-moon-symbol Morgul Orcs and Shagrat's Red Eye Orcs of Cirith Ungol).

EDIT: x-ed with Zil and alatar

Pitchwife · 04-06-2011, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But, but...ummm...those aren't breeches!

I prefer to think they are - can't see Sam and Frodo as little Buffalo Bills

(not the western hero...)

Morthoron · 04-06-2011, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Also, clothes can serve as distinguishing marks - "we are Cool Clan XY, wearing the symbol of a dragon on our chest", stuff like that. Also "I am the chieftain, I can wear the coolest and most intimidating armor of all; Elves, fear me; yes, it was me who killed your grandfather, surely you have heard the tales about the big Orc clad in big black-and-red-striped cloak, mwahaha".

Hmmm...sort of like Crips and Bloods, Orkish style.

Inziladun · 04-06-2011, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...sort of like Crips and Bloods, Orkish style.

The argument of unit pride does make sense.
I can also see the need for specialized clothing for differently tasked Orcs. I'd think thick pants would be a necessity for a Warg-rider, for example.

Galadriel55 · 04-06-2011, 03:54 PM

If an orc doesn't wear clothes, but runs around Mordor all day in his armour, what's the likelyhood of him catching a fatal infection?

Um... do orcs even have anything they could call "infection" from their point of view?

Morthoron · 04-06-2011, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I prefer to think they are - can't see Sam and Frodo as little Buffalo Bills

(not the western hero...)

Well, the armies of brigands that troubled France throughout the 14th century were known as écorcheurs ('skinners' or 'flayers of dead bodies'), and they were very reminiscent of Orcs (or vice versa). so when Tolkien refers to "long hairy breeches of some unclean beast-fell", they could have very well come from Uncle Shagrat's leathery loins.

Inziladun · 04-06-2011, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If an orc doesn't wear clothes, but runs around Mordor all day in his armour, what's the likelyhood of him catching a fatal infection?

Or some hot embers from Mt. Doom? That could have an effect on morale.

x/d with Morthoron

Galadriel55 · 04-06-2011, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Or some hot embers from Mt. Doom? That could have an effect on morale.

After you've sat once on one of the red-hot stones without pants on, you learn the lesson.

Alfirin · 04-06-2011, 09:38 PM

What I never quite figured out was why orcs needed shoes (aragon ad co find one as part of the detritus trail left by the och who caputed Merry and Pippin. Given how thick orchish hide was I always imagined thier feet were fairly hard and horny, and pretty resistant to damage. Indeed I've alays assumed the shoe/boot wearing was for armed orcs in the Mordor Forces, "wild orch" (like the ones in the Misty mountains) likey did go barefoot (if only because being barefoot would likey give them better traction on the loose stones they would have to deal with in the mountains. Also does this mean that frodo and Sam had to find orchish boots to disguise themselves. Actually now that I think of it (Frodo and Sam may have had boots already) (Bilbo was given a pair of boots in Rivindell in the Hoobit (I was in a note to one of the illustrations Tolkein did) so Frodo and Co likey would have had the same courtesy extended to them).

Galadriel · 04-07-2011, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

After you've sat once on one of the red-hot stones without pants on, you learn the lesson.

But...wouldn't red-hot stones burn through your pants anyway?

Morthoron · 04-07-2011, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel

But...wouldn't red-hot stones burn through your pants anyway?

Perhaps that is when "hot pants" came into vogue, Orcs being risque and all.

Inziladun · 04-07-2011, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Perhaps that is when "hot pants" came into vogue, Orcs being risque and all.

Actually, I'm firmly convinced leisure suits were an Orkish invention.

Look, alatar, isn't it bad enough to have to deal with the "Gandalf uncloaking" mental picture? Naked hobbits on the Barrow-downs are a pretty unappealing thought as well. Let's not add nude Orcs to the fray.

alatar · 04-07-2011, 02:44 PM

I'm just saying, what better way to annoy those slipper-wearing elves?

And again, have we ever settled the issue regarding the existence of female orcs (or the species equivalent)?

Note that I won't be selling any 'Orcs at the beach' calendars anytime soon.

Galadriel · 04-08-2011, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Actually, I'm firmly convinced leisure suits were an Orkish invention.

Look, alatar, isn't it bad enough to have to deal with the "Gandalf uncloaking" mental picture? Naked hobbits on the Barrow-downs are a pretty unappealing thought as well. Let's not add nude Orcs to the fray.

Yeah...imagine all the fungus that must be growing in...um...not-so-nice places.

Galadriel · 04-08-2011, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

I'm just saying, what better way to annoy those slipper-wearing elves?

I thought elves wore light shoes or sandals

alatar · 04-12-2011, 05:49 PM

Even Peter Jackson had interesting thoughts about clothing orcs (as read here) ...

04-06-2011, 12:30 PM	#1
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Orc haute couture It's written that orcs were once elves, but perverted. These vile mockeries are beast-like, yet also a bit too much like us humans. Orcs aren't farmers or millers or poets, but warriors, thieves, defilers and spoilers. They don't make, but take. Pretty counterculture. So why did orcs feel the need to wear clothes (not armor)? __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

04-06-2011, 01:21 PM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	Just armour? That doesn't exactly conform to the body, I'm thinking. Even Morgoth and Sauron probably thought "Gah! I don't need to see that!" You guys find some clothes! __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

04-06-2011, 02:27 PM	#4
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	Intimidating? Maybe. But keep in mind that Melkor and Sauron had other troops than Orcs. Having Orcs exposed could have a deleterious effect on fighting proficiency and focus. EDIT- Also, just imagine the chafing if all they had was armour! __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

04-06-2011, 02:40 PM	#7
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	What I mean is that there is no biological or cultural reason that orcs need to wear clothing. We wear it for protection from the environment. Certain aboriginal tribes wear next to nothing; their children may have not so much as a stitch. And orcs enjoy flouting convention, and what better way to differentiate themselves from 'those elves' (who create) than to not wear clothing? Funny that most posters here think that orcs reproduce sexually, and that orcs might just be 'modest.' Who knew? Anyway, I'm not even sure why elves wear clothing, but I think it's because Tolkien has elves being much like us, and as we wear clothes (especially if Middle Earth is in the northern hemisphere...). __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

04-06-2011, 02:54 PM	#10
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	I think the "environmental protection" is an argument, even in the general sense that some clothing is better than no clothing when it comes to protection even from, say, thorny bushes. And the psychological effect, like what Zil said... and as it was also mentioned, at least since the invention of armor the clothes were a necessity. You can't really wear an armor on bare body (or you can, but that will effectively kill you). Also, clothes can serve as distinguishing marks - "we are Cool Clan XY, wearing the symbol of a dragon on our chest", stuff like that. Also "I am the chieftain, I can wear the coolest and most intimidating armor of all; Elves, fear me; yes, it was me who killed your grandfather, surely you have heard the tales about the big Orc clad in big black-and-red-striped cloak, mwahaha". And in the battle, generally, clothes also can be important for distinction, if they have the coat of arms (although everyone will most likely know which side the Orcs fight on, even without the coat of arms - but maybe when it comes to clash between two different Orc tribes... think of Gorbag's Dead-moon-symbol Morgul Orcs and Shagrat's Red Eye Orcs of Cirith Ungol). EDIT: x-ed with Zil and alatar __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

04-06-2011, 03:54 PM	#14
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,408	If an orc doesn't wear clothes, but runs around Mordor all day in his armour, what's the likelyhood of him catching a fatal infection? Um... do orcs even have anything they could call "infection" from their point of view? __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

04-06-2011, 09:38 PM	#18
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	What I never quite figured out was why orcs needed shoes (aragon ad co find one as part of the detritus trail left by the och who caputed Merry and Pippin. Given how thick orchish hide was I always imagined thier feet were fairly hard and horny, and pretty resistant to damage. Indeed I've alays assumed the shoe/boot wearing was for armed orcs in the Mordor Forces, "wild orch" (like the ones in the Misty mountains) likey did go barefoot (if only because being barefoot would likey give them better traction on the loose stones they would have to deal with in the mountains. Also does this mean that frodo and Sam had to find orchish boots to disguise themselves. Actually now that I think of it (Frodo and Sam may have had boots already) (Bilbo was given a pair of boots in Rivindell in the Hoobit (I was in a note to one of the illustrations Tolkein did) so Frodo and Co likey would have had the same courtesy extended to them).

04-07-2011, 02:44 PM	#22
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	I'm just saying, what better way to annoy those slipper-wearing elves? And again, have we ever settled the issue regarding the existence of female orcs (or the species equivalent)? Note that I won't be selling any 'Orcs at the beach' calendars anytime soon. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

04-12-2011, 05:49 PM	#25
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Even Peter Jackson had interesting thoughts about clothing orcs (as read here) ... __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.