Edith is to Luthien as JRRT is to... Beren?

[Galadriel55]

I know that Tolkien dedicated the character Luthien to his wife, Edith. I also know that after they died, Edith had "Luthien" engraved on her grave, and JRRT had "Beren".

I understand how Edith could "be" Luthien - her character, cheerfulness, and of course Tolkien's love for her (also, Luthien=enchantress; Edith enchanted Tolkien?). But I just cannot connect JRRT with Beren. Does he really see himself as that character, or is it just a coincidence that he made Beren what he is, without any hints about himself? As far as I know, Luthien was the only character who "lived for real".

Your opinion?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I know that Tolkien dedicated the character Luthien to his wife, Edith. I also know that after they died, Edith had "Luthien" engraved on her grave, and JRRT had "Beren".

I understand how Edith could "be" Luthien - her character, cheerfulness, and of course Tolkien's love for her (also, Luthien=enchantress; Edith enchanted Tolkien?). But I just cannot connect JRRT with Beren. Does he really see himself as that character, or is it just a coincidence that he made Beren what he is, without any hints about himself? As far as I know, Luthien was the only character who "lived for real".

Your opinion?

Having seen pictures of Edith, I can rightly say she weren't no Luthien neither, if you get me meaning.

But love hides all the blemishes, doesn't it? And if Edith was indeed JRR's Luthien, he was ever her faithful and loyal Beren. It is a perception of the great love he held for Edith, rather than Beren's exploits in battle (although Tolkien was in WWI).

[Evisse the Blue]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Having seen pictures of Edith, I can rightly say she weren't no Luthien neither, if you get me meaning.

Are you implying she was ugly? Cause I think she was pretty. It's true I only saw this picture of her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Edith_Tolkien.png

In any case, I believe that Tolkien idealized their love story, as it always happens with writers. If it was fairytale-like in the beginning, it wasn't as much so as their married life progressed, and they discovered they has different interests and ideals. But that hardly mattered since they were both civilized human beings and JRRT was always faithful to her.

And undoubtedly,the Beren - Luthien story was born from a real, passionate love story at some point in time.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue

Are you implying she was ugly? Cause I think she was pretty.

Merely pointing out to Gal55 that Tolkien was just as much like Beren as Edith was like Luthien. From what I've read, Edith was no charmer during their marriage and was quite cranky and very un-Luthien-like. But what we think doesn't much matter, because it's what JRR thoughts that created a great story.

Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue

In any case, I believe that Tolkien idealized their love story, as it always happens with writers. If it was fairytale-like in the beginning, it wasn't as much so as their married life progressed, and they discovered they has different interests and ideals. But that hardly mattered since they were both civilized human beings and JRRT was always faithful to her.

And undoubtedly,the Beren - Luthien story was born from a real, passionate love story at some point in time.

Yes. Idealized. Agreed.

[Pitchwife]

From a slightly different angle, it's remarkable how little Beren actually achieves by himself during the quest for the Silmaril; his main talent seems to have been getting himself into trouble, and but for Lúthien and Húan, his bones would have rotted in Tol-in-Gaurhoth. It is she who makes the quest succeed, first by breaking him out of Sauron's prison, then by singing Morgoth to sleep so Beren can cut off the Silmaril - because she loved him anyway, in spite of his shortcomings. Maybe this tells us something about how Tolkien saw himself and his part in their relationship?

[Legolas]

Maybe Tolkien was no great warrior, but he found himself in Beren's situation. His admiration for his wife was deep, and describing her as Luthien implies he shared Beren's enviable fate of witnessing/sharing her beauty. Their stories parallel in several ways.

Compare this description of Luthien from Chapter 19 of The Silmarillion with a poem Tolkien wrote about his wife (shared by Carpenter in his Tolkien biography).

It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren came stumbling into Doriath grey and bowed as with many years of woe, so great had been the torment of the road. But wandering in the summer in the woods of Neldoreth he came upon Lúthien, daughter of Thingol and Melian, at a time of evening under moonrise, as she danced upon the unfading grass in the glades beside Esgalduin. Then all memory of his pain departed from him, and he fell into an enchantment; for Lúthien was the most beautiful of all the Children of Ilúvatar. Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven, but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening; her mantle was sewn with golden flowers, but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight. As the light upon the leaves of trees, as the voice of clear waters, as the stars above the mists of the world, such was her glory and her loveliness; and in her face was a shining light.

But she vanished from his sight; and he became dumb, as one that is bound under a spell, and he strayed long in the woods, wild and wary as a beast, seeking for her. In his heart he called her Tinúviel, that signifies Nightingale, daughter of twilight, in the Grey-elven tongue, for he knew no other name for her. And he saw her afar as leaves in the winds of autumn, and in winter as a star upon a hill, but a chain was upon his limbs.

There came a time near dawn on the eve of spring, and Lúthien danced upon a green hill; and suddenly she began to sing.

Lo! Young we are and yet have stood
like planted hearts in the great Sun
of Love so long (as two fair trees
in woodland or in open dale
stand utterly entwined and breathe
the airs and suck the very light
together) that we have become
as one, deep rooted in the soil
of Life and tangled in the sweet growth.

Tolkien's experiences with Edith echo through the circumstances around Beren and Luthien. Tolkien was an exile; Beren was separated from his parents as well - his mother fled with family to safety, his father slain. Tolkien was younger than Edith; Beren was younger than Luthien.

They had to deal with the pain of disapproving parents. Tolkien met Edith at 16 and they began a relationship, but his guardian forbid him to see her until he was 21 because she was Anglican, and a distraction from schoolwork. Thingol was "filled with anger" when he found out Luthien was meeting Beren, a mortal, in secret.

Tolkien's years of waiting to resume his relationship with Edith also remind me of Beren's dumb spell in the woods after he saw Luthien. Wandering alone, he caught sight of her in the summer, and was left there looking for her until the eve of the next spring. (Quoted above.)

Soon after finally finding Luthien, Beren meets Thingol and is sent away to retrieve a Silmaril alone. Likewise, Tolkien was sent off to World War I just months after marrying Edith.

A couple of years later while stationed in England again, a walk together inspired the account of Beren and Luthien's first encounter.

Tolkien explains this in Letter 340, which was written to Christopher after Tolkien had decided on Edith's grave inscription. He says, about the inscription:

I have at last got busy about Mummy's grave. ... The inscription I should like is:

EDITH MARY TOLKIEN
1889-1971
Luthien

: brief and jejune, except for Luthien, which says for me more than a multitude of words: for she was (and knew she was) my Luthien.

July 13. Say what you feel, without reservation, about this addition. I begin this under the stress of great emotion & regret - and in any case I am afflicted from time to time (increasingly) with an overwhelming sense of bereavement. I need advice. Yet I hope none of my children will feel that the use of this name is a sentimental fancy. It is at any rate not comparable to the quoting of pet names in obituaries. I never called Edith Luthien - but she was the source of the story that in time became the chief pan of the Silmarillion. It was first conceived in a small woodland glade filled with hemlocks in Roos in Yorkshire (where I was for a brief time in command of an outpost of the Humber Garrison in 1917, and she was able to live with me for a while). In those days her hair was raven, her skin clear, her eyes brighter than you have seen them, and she could sing - and dance. But the story has gone crooked, & I am left, and I cannot plead before the inexorable Mandos.

He goes on to tell Christopher that he'd like to talk to him, to tell him all about he and Edith's relationship. He mentions them healing one another; in the story, Luthien and Huan healed Beren twice.

I say no more now. But I should like to ere long to have a long talk with you. For if as seems probable I shall never write any ordered biography - it is against my nature, which expresses itself about the things deepest felt in tales and myths - someone close in heart to me should know something about things that records do not record: the dreadful sufferings of our childhoolds, from which we rescued one another, but could not wholly heal the wounds that later often proved disabling; the sufferings that we endured after our love began - all of which (over and above our personal weaknesses) might help to make pardonable, or understandable, the lapses and darknesses which at times marred our lives - and to explain how these never touched our depths nor dimmed our memories of our youthful love. For ever (especially when alone) we still met in the woodland glade, and went hand in hand many times to escape the shadow of imminent death before our last parting.

In my edition, there's an asterisk by the line "(and knew she was)" that explains that Edith knew the early version of Beren and Luthien's story, as well Aragorn's song in Lord of the Rings, were about her.

Sorry for the essay, but hopefully it explains his deeply personal attachment.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legolas

Sorry for the essay, but hopefully it explains his deeply personal attachment.

If I got you right, Tolkien created Beren in order to ephasize Luthien/Edith, but not necessarily making himself Beren?

[Legolas]

Hm, kind of. If Edith was his Luthien, JRR is Beren by default. There are some similarities on each side.

I don't think Tolkien would've been the sort to brag on himself, even if thought himself to be as brave or loyal as Beren. But if Luthien was to be written as such a great character, he couldn't have her falling in love with a lazy, cowardly jerk, could he?

What I mostly meant to say was that though the story isn't an allegory - it's not at all supposed to be a complete metaphorical representation - it was still strongly inspired by Edith and their relationship. Because that was the inspiration, the two relationships shared some of the same circumstances: a fleeting glimpse at the beginning, followed by a time apart; a parental figure disgruntled by their relationship; being forced apart again soon after meeting a second time; one healing the other's wounds.

Pitchwife poses an interesting question. Apart from catching Luthien's attention not backing down from Thingol's challenge, Beren didn't seem to accomplish much on his own after they met. Was that aspect of their story also manifested in JRR and Edith's story in some way? The healing he spoke of in the letter is an example. I'm sure there are more.

[Galadriel55]

Maybe JRRT felt that Edith was his support and inspiration, and without her he wouldn't be able to do anything.

[Formendacil]

It's also worth noting that although Beren gets a fairly impressive lineage in the Silmarillion, as well as a fairly heroic backstory in his pre-Doriath exploits, these parts of the tale were not part of the original Tale of Tinúviel, but came with the development in the Silmarillion post-Lost Tales.

In any case, in both the original Lost Tale and in the final form as we have it approximated in the Silmarillion, the key thing to note about Beren is that, in contrast to Lúthien, he does not compare. This is, in fact, more strongly emphasised in the later versions of the tale, where Lúthien's greatness is increased as Thingol and Melian's realm of Doriath and personal power and wisdom are increased--and as the frequency of the Ainur having children decreases. Beren may be the Heir of Bëor and one of Barahir's heroic, desperate band... but as Thingol points out to him, he is a mere mortal, and is not Lúthien's peer in any way save love.

Tolkien also emphasises that it is only because of love and some gift of Fate that Beren wins Lúthien's hand. This has already been noted with regard to how little Beren actually does in winning the Silmaril--mostly just getting into scrapes that need rescuing. Even where Fate sets him clearly apart, such as by finding his way through the Girdle of Melian, this is not because of any merit on his part, but because some higher power gave him a magnificent fortune he did not deserve.

As far as that goes, I think it's easy then to see how Tolkien saw himself in Beren's shoes. The love they won was one they did not really deserve (as Tolkien saw it), one that was only made possible through unmerited love and fate.

Of course, it is ridiculous to try and find biographical points of similarity between Tolkien and Beren, anymore than between Edith and Lúthien--or, for that matter, between WWII and the War of the Ring. It's looking for allegory where one should be recognising inspiration. Tolkien felt himself the luckiest man in the world to win the woman he loved against odds that said he should not--and one may assume Beren felt the same. Certainly, this inspired the Tale of Tinúviel, but that does not mean that an inspired tale will share the details of what inspired it--inspiration means that it is the spirit of something that is taken from the original, not the externals.

[morwen edhelwen]

Hi! Morwen here! Yeah I agree.. but there is the point that he could not marry her at first and Edith's family disapproved of him because of their religious differences.. Protestant and Catholic... hugely significant in in 1900s England... and Beren was a "mere mortal", so maybe Tolkien created Beren because he saw Edith as "more than human"?
It's the romance aspect.
_Morwen.

[Dilettante]

I'd never known what Edith looked like until I saw the linked photo above. I think she was quite beautiful...and her eyes are very...stunning.

I was going to mention the story about the two of them walking in the woods and Edith's dancing being the inspiration for the first meeting of Beren and Luthien but Legoas has already mentioned it.

Legolas said...

I don't think Tolkien would've been the sort to brag on himself, even if thought himself to be as brave or loyal as Beren. But if Luthien was to be written as such a great character, he couldn't have her falling in love with a lazy, cowardly jerk, could he?

True, not only would that not make a good story, we would think less of Luthien if she did. She would be some pathetic, desperate girl falling in love with the first man that came her way. I certainly don't think JRT would have thought that, or put Edith in that light. He probably considered himself (as Formendacil has stated) fortunate to be chosen by her.

but as Thingol points out to him, he is a mere mortal, and is not Lúthien's peer in any way save love.

Well....what daddy hasn't frowned upon any man their little girl brings home, insisting that no one is good enough for their 'princess'? Humans do it too, not just elf-kings.

Certainly, the tale of Beren and Luthien is not biographical. Certainly there are many similarities between their story and that of Beren and Luthien. Not everything is exact because it was a story BASED on actual events, not an exhaustive retelling of such events. (That would probably get boring.) Why is Beren a 'mere' mortal? Why is Luthien the most beautiful of all the Eldar? I see this story as the confession of a man who loves and is loved by the most beautiful woman in the world (to him) who certainly doesn't feel like he deserves her, but despite all odds is at last able to be with her. The best way he sees to tell the world that story is with a tale like this.

Really, how much more romantic can you get?

[Galadriel55]

Thank you, all! These are all good points!

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I know that Tolkien dedicated the character Luthien to his wife, Edith. I also know that after they died, Edith had "Luthien" engraved on her grave, and JRRT had "Beren".

I understand how Edith could "be" Luthien - her character, cheerfulness, and of course Tolkien's love for her (also, Luthien=enchantress; Edith enchanted Tolkien?). But I just cannot connect JRRT with Beren. Does he really see himself as that character, or is it just a coincidence that he made Beren what he is, without any hints about himself? As far as I know, Luthien was the only character who "lived for real".

Your opinion?

I always thought JRRT based himself on Faramir?

I agree with Morthoron. I think JRRT idealized their relationship. He was rather the extravagant sort, wasn't he, when it came to drama?

[Dilettante]

Extravagant? Probably. Although, I kind of wish I could find a man that would write about me like that.

[Bêthberry]

It is worth noting that the fair copies of Tolkien's early manuscripts were written in Edith's hand, according to Christopher Tolkien. (And I do enjoy bumping spammers off the page.)