Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
11-28-2010, 02:11 AM | #1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
|
Currency in Aman and Arda?
I know, I know. I just started two threads in quick succession. So sue me By the way, I think this topic has already been discussed, but I couldn't find it anywhere, so I'm sorry for bringing it up again.
I'm a little confused about the currency in Aman and Arda. It's said that Aman grew rich with the jewels of the Noldor, but I've never seen elves engage in any kind of monetary trade or system. There seems to be a very primitive sort of barter system, where one favour is met with another. I know that jewels and pearls were given to the Dwarves when they built Menegroth, but I still don't know. There seems to be little distinction between an elf that is a fisherman and an elf that's a lord, only that their jobs are different, and the lord probably wears better clothes. The reason I'm saying this is because I've never seen an elf-servant (there's a butler in The Hobbit, but even he seems to be rather authoritative); that probably indicates that elves were generally rather well-off, and few engaged in 'lowly' jobs. The only currency I've come across in ME is the silver pennies that are used in Bree when Merry loses his ponies. Either way, could someone clear this up? Thanks!
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
11-28-2010, 05:35 AM | #2 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
As for most of the kingdoms of Men, I guess that's just what you said - the silver pennies, I am not aware of any other mention of currency elsewhere. We can only speculate if there was more or less unified currency (perhaps left from the Númenorean times), or if other kinds of people had different currencies of their own. It would make sense, in my opinion, if the more "primitive" nations of Men had simpler sort of barter-systems, somewhere using different things than money as the "currency" (as in, it used to be e.g. silk in some nations in the past in our world, and so on); and those who came in contact with the Dúnedain (so in time of LotR, the lands which used to be the provinces of Gondor and Arnor, including Hobbit-lands; it seems logical that Rohanians would accept the system as well by that time) started to use money (which I can easily imagine being "invented" by the Númenoreans, especially with their sort of colonial system it would make a lot of sense, because they would need some common currency for trade among themselves, when their merchants brought goods from various parts of the world).
As for other races, and earlier times, I can imagine the Dwarves trading for gems and various metal ingots, of which they'd have really abundant amount. Gems and precious metals would be used also in "inter-racial trade", as it seems to be mentioned also in Sil and everywhere. It is worth mentioning that in the Hobbit, Thorin, when explaining the history of Erebor to Bilbo, mentions that the Dwarves under the Mountain used to trade their craft for food provided by the Men of Dale; and it is not clear whether they used money as a sort of means for it or if it was just a sort of barter-trade. Also, I don't know if the Dwarves would have had any need for having a currency among themselves. Personally, my belief is that the non-human races would have had rather different system of trade, or even a rather different attitude towards personal ownership. For that matter, I am pretty convinced that the Elves did not really care - yes, that's the word - about private ownership of something. Everything indicates that they did not have much of a bond to material things (with a few exceptions, and note that it is mostly considered negative, like Fëanor's case). Also, you never hear about any social differences between Elves in this manner - simply because, I believe, there was nothing to begin with. Yes, an Elven King probably had much more fancy clothes than the others, adorned with jewellery and such, but that was simply as a symbol of his status as a King, which had nothing to do with ownership - and the other Elves would simply not wear an adorned crown, because they were not the King, but if they wanted, I think nothing would prevent them from getting themselves one. Especially given the Elven immortality, it is only natural that they would not care so much about material possessions - as they would pass, sooner or later, while the Elf will continue living. The Elves seemed to merrily enjoy material pleasures when they lasted - their houses, food, drink, clothes, everything was wonderful, we are told - but they were not, sort of, bound to it. They also enjoyed the nature and so on, which of course did not belong to anybody, and I think they'd perceive their crafted materials in the same way: simply as an "extension" of the nature, something they only made more beautiful, but using the substance which did not belong to anybody in the first place. Of course, if an Elf warrior owned a sword, the others perceived it as his and would not use it, but there was probably no need for "law" like that, and nobody would come to him asking "how much do you want for it?" If the Elf wanted to give it away, he would do so and anybody could pick the sword up, but if he didn't want to, nobody would force him. We can see an echo of this, I believe, also in the request of the Valar themselves to Fëanor: they had the respect for private property in this way that they would not force Fëanor to give his Silmarils away as they were his. Note also that they did not start talking about buying them from him or something. In general terms, I would say the Elven society would be the closest to what we might call communism: each Elf was working, but when it came to making a banquet (like in Gildor's case), it really did not matter who eats five pieces of bread and who eats only one, it seemed that they had always more than enough, and so one can assume that for example an Elven baker would not mind how much of lembas he made, because he seemingly just enjoyed making them and also sort of knew that if he wanted a jeweller to make him some nice jewels, he would do it for him just the same as he bakes the bread for him. In any case, at least when it comes to Aman, I cannot imagine any sort of currency existing there - given that it was a Paradise-sort of land, it was really not necessary to trade anything for anything there.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
11-28-2010, 06:41 AM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
|
That was a very well thought out answer But could you clear up one more thing for me, if you don't mind: For the elves in Aman and Arda, were there shops and places they could ask for clothes and the like? Or did they have to make them themselves?
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
11-28-2010, 07:22 AM | #4 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Well, bear in mind that although it is all based on the sources we have, it is purely my conclusion, perhaps somebody might disagree. Nevertheless, as for your question, I think it is the same - I cannot imagine Elves having "shops" in real at all. If you wanted, say, new clothes, either you had to make them yourself, or you went to somebody whom you knew (and bear in mind that among the Elves, probably everybody knew more or less everybody, given their lifespan), and asked him to make it for you. I got the impression that the Elves preferred to make the clothes for themselves, as that's also the way to make them most to their liking, but obviously there also were some folks who tended to make clothes for the others - for example, in Lórien, we read that the cloaks for the Fellowship were made by Galadriel and some of her maidens, I assume from time to time some Elves might've been given them as well. Also from other things, I think acquiring new possessions among the Elves was often through the way of a gift - you can also see it with the Fellowship, or with various visitors in Menegroth and so on - you simply didn't come and ask "hello, how much would this bow cost?", but somebody gave it to you. I assume that, let's say, if an elven hunter discovered that he needs a new bow, mostly by the time he would start asking for it, some of his good friends would have already noticed it and made him a new one, or something like that. Of course, that's one of the things. Given how skilled the Eldar usually were, I believe they made lots of things for themselves. But there were probably always people around willing to make something for you, if you asked them.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
11-28-2010, 02:10 PM | #5 | |||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Quote:
The fact that gold and silver coins were used in Bree (and probably the Shire, too, since we have many mentions of "money" by the Hobbits) would seem to add weight to the idea that at least the Kingdom of Arnor might have once had a common currency. And in Bree and the Shire, where there was apparently no central government or authority, and thus no "government" workers, only currency trading or bartering would make the local economy workable. I'm inclined to think it was only currency, because of something Butturbur said. Quote:
No trade or service was expected of Frodo, just payment. There'd been no talk of what service Frodo and his friends could provide, nor of anything they had to trade. Additionally, I don't recall any reference to banks or counting houses in Bree or the Shire where currency exchanges could be done, and the Kingdom or Arnor had been gone for over a thousand years, so I would think the coins would have been simple metal discs, accepted everywhere the inhabitants of those areas were likely to go. Quote:
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|||
11-28-2010, 05:13 PM | #6 | ||
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
|
Quote:
Quote:
In general, I think the Dwarves were somewhat more preoccupied with notions of property and private ownership than the Elves - at least in their dealings with other peoples (see the quarrel about the Nauglamír back in the First Age). Among themselves, such issues may not have mattered quite as much, except perhaps between the different Houses (e.g. I could see the Longbeards of Moria trading mithril for gold and silver with their distant relatives); but I doubt they used any internal currency for that, in so far I'm with Legate here. As for the Elves, I feel Legate has hit the nail on the head; and when we're talking about Aman, any idea of trade and barter seems quite out of question to me. (If you want evidence, the Silmarillion says the Noldor freely gave gems and jewels to the Teleri to do with as they pleased; and later, Fëanor in turn didn't ask Olwë 'How much for those ships', nor did he demand them as recompense for earlier gifts, but asked for permission to use them for old friendship's sake.)
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
||
11-28-2010, 06:51 PM | #7 | |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
|
Just a couple of observations to add...
In Aman it is said of Aule: Quote:
In Middle Earth, in the Hobbit, another example of trading is described where Thranduil's Wood Elves received barrels of apples, goods and wine (some from the vineyards of Dorwinion, near the sea of Ruhn) came up the river and were trans-shipped by the Lakemen. I don't thnk it's said how they paid (in goods or money), but it seems plain they paid in some way. Also, in Rivendell Gloin tells Frodo about the tolls charged by the Beornings - indicating yet another case of payment being made (goods or money is not specified) for a service or passage. |
|
11-28-2010, 08:25 PM | #8 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,509
|
Tolkien did not do commerce very well; in fact, he merely ignored it unless it served a specific purpose to move the story along (the barrel trade with Laketown, for instance, where there is no mention of what the Elves could use in trade/barter/currency).
The Shire and Bree are even more of an anomaly. Considering the last King of Arthedain perished nearly 1000 years previously, it seems incredible that there would be any Dunedain coinage remaining from that time period. Likewise, the Shire had no trade south to Gondor, therefore it seems unlikely that the tharni and castar coins minted in Minas Tirith would have made their way up the Greenway in an amount necessary to be used as everyday coinage. So, how were deeds and other legal transactions processed? Who paid for the postal service and bounders (as taxation was never mentioned)? No pawn shops or usury (an age-old practice in the real world), no banks -- but, amusingly, there were lawyers (Messrs Grubb, Grubb and Burrowes). Much like commodes and outhouses, Tolkien simply did not go into detail; otherwise, he would need a many-paged treatise explaining trade, finance, numismatics and global economics. Considering the numerous problems with his personal finances, it is my opinion that Tolkien wanted to stay as far away as possible from the dread realities of finance, even in a fantasy.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
11-29-2010, 12:12 AM | #9 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
|
Quote:
As regards legal matters, there was one other incident I recall where Otho demands to see Bilbo's will making Frodo Bilbo's heir (Otho would have otherwise inherited). Quote:
Interesting side note (from one of Tolkien's writings which source I would have to look for), Otho was head of the Sackville family and was hoping to gain the unusual distinction of becoming titular head of TWO families at the same time (if he had remained Bilbo's heir). Thus his wrath at being foiled by Bilbo's will was due to more than simply failing to get Bilbo's (supposed) wealth. |
||
11-29-2010, 08:38 AM | #10 |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
|
I think it can be assumed that money of some sort (presumably in the form of coins as a general rule) was in common usage among all the peoples in the North Western Middle Earth, with the possible exception of Elves (though I think that they too may have used money; some of them certainly demonstrate possessiveness)
A few interesting instances of trade/transactions/money that popped into my head: *Bilbo is hired as a professional thief to go along with the dwarves in The Hobbit. They sign a business contract and both parties seem to regard this as a perfectly normal proceeding. *The S-B:s buy Bag End and there is no indication that Frodo receives any goods or services in return. But how is he paid? With a sack of gold? And if so, where does he stash it and his pre-existing funds away when he leaves on his journey? Obviously (I think) he doesn't bring all his wealth with him... *Here's a curious one: during the Orc wars one of the Dwarves (I forget who) goes to Moria and is heckled at the Gate by the Orcs who throw spare change at his feet and call him a beggar. So Orcs also have money and make business, one might presume... *Also, isn't it mentioned in LotR that Sauron tries to buy black stallions from the Rohrrim for a high price? What does he offer in return, you think? *And when the Black Rider comes to the Shire he offers to pay for good information regarding Mr. Baggins, does he not?
__________________
"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan |
11-29-2010, 10:19 AM | #11 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
|
I suspect that the absence of many direct, specific discussions or references to money in Middle-earth arises from the fact that there were no philological quandries concering the words for coins.
Thus, Tolkien didn't have to engage in any "backformation" to create "asterisk"words for money--as Shippey has explained Tolkien's process in The Road to Middle-earth and Author of the Century . Therefore, it just didn't interest him.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
11-29-2010, 01:36 PM | #12 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Quote:
And, of course, as for the use of money by Sauron, I have no doubt that it was just a wonderful means to corrupt Men, so I am sure that at least in the exterior relations, he would've started using it very soon. After all, money is the root of all evil, right? The example with the Black Rider is a very good show of that. Quote:
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
||
11-29-2010, 02:27 PM | #13 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
|
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
11-29-2010, 02:46 PM | #14 | |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
|
Quote:
|
|
11-29-2010, 02:50 PM | #15 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Quote:
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
|
11-29-2010, 07:24 PM | #16 |
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 894
|
cold hard cash
Hi all,
nice find of orcish small-change skip! I don't think we should be unduly worried about the thought that the coinage of North-Western Middle Earth was based on a Dunedain system of a thousand years before. An old-money penny was 'd' for denarii after all, which goes back to the Romans. And the actual coins surviving isn't the key thing, the key thing was the idea of the coin, - a copper, a silver penny, or a gold castar. As long as they were precious metal of about the right size and weight, then anything was probably acceptable. For example the Ancient Britons struck coins based on Alexander the Great's designs, but these were weirdly stylized rough copies of the originals. I imagine the Dwarves struck coinage, probably with a hammer-and anvil design or similar, but in the same size as the old Numenorean coins, as that was what everyone was used to. Wonder if Sauron struck his own coins? What would be the reaction if you tried to buy a pony in Bree with Sauronic pennies?? Presumably shady characters might offer to melt them down and recast in more acceptable form, for a price!
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion Last edited by Rumil; 11-29-2010 at 07:31 PM. Reason: I'm not a Knight who goes Ni |
11-29-2010, 07:41 PM | #17 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Quote:
Really though, I doubt Sauron had need of his own coinage. I see Mordor as being even more of an example of Communism than the Elves. Think of it, the people there (mainly talking of the Orcs) don't even have names as far as the higher-ups are concerned; their assigned numbers seemed to be more important. The Mordor citizenry are told what to do and where to live. A free-market economy seems unnecessary and against the nature of a Sauronian society. What the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were up to was a different story. When Khamûl told Farmer Maggot he'd bring "gold", I've always pictured him as meaning bullion. Notice he doesn't tell Maggot he'll give him "money". Pedantic, I know, but there you are.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|
11-29-2010, 07:58 PM | #18 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,401
|
I think that Khamul promised Maggot gold, he meant gold coins, that being the highest coin type in value. As little as the Nazguls know about the Shire, they should know what to scare/tempt the hobbits with; they aren't that stupid. A chunk of gold would be as useful to Maggot as a sausage to a vegeterian.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
11-29-2010, 08:05 PM | #19 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Quote:
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|
11-29-2010, 09:38 PM | #20 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,401
|
You wouldn't, and neither would I, but neither of us is Maggot. What use would he see in a bar of gold? It's like the Gaffer said, "cabbages and potatoes are better". They're both more down-to-earth-ish, and perhaps more realistic when it comes to the true value of things, not the value that others give them. What could you do with gold? It's an equivalent of money, but what else? Jewelry's nice, I suppose, but its not something that we really need that much. Yes, I said that gold=money, but only because people gave it this value. In reality, it is not as useful as other metals. Maggot is the kind of person that can see beyond the yellow shiny stuff. What would he do with that bar of gold? Fertilize his mushrooms with it?
He could use a few coins, though, since they are a convinient way to trade, as you said. He could get some real fertilizer with those! Gold bars aren't very convenient to trade with, unless you want a dozen wagons of manure at once... When Legolas and Gimli talk about the caves of Aglarond, they say something about giving gold. Do you think that they meant oney or golden bars or either? Or simply the value of gold in any material/way of payment? PS: if Maggot would not accept gold in return for information about his..."friend", he probably wouldn't have accepted anything, so I don't blae Khamul for not bribing properly.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
11-29-2010, 09:38 PM | #21 | |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
|
Quote:
So, if the Nazgul pays with a gold ingot (enough to make several hundred or more gold coins), what is Maggot going to do with it? Walk into the nearest pub, buy a beer (for a few coppers) and ask for change ?!?!?!? He can't do much of ANYTHING with it until he finds someone with enough loose change to convert it - and with a desire to have their very own gold ingot (which THEY can't do much with). Maybe Gondor would have a banking system able to handle/convert it. I expect the Dwarves could have converted it. But I don't see that the Shire was set up to convert something of that value. |
|
11-30-2010, 04:17 AM | #22 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Indeed, I'm with G55 and Puddleglum about this one - Khamul's words really sound like the basic way in which the villains of old in 19th-century books offer a bribe. The point is that Khamul is not saying "I will give you 500 gold pieces if you tell me about Baggins", but he is simply saying "gold", leaving it open for Maggot to say the actual price. It is like "here, I am giving you an offer, and you can see for yourself how generous I am". Of course, Khamul's only mistake was indeed that he bumped into a rather incorruptible person, and the whole race, for that matter...
On the other hand, I agree with Inzil about the Mordor part - I don't think that Sauron would have any reason to use currency "inside" Mordor, and no reason to make his own coins. Nobody will buy anything from anybody inside Mordor, you either have slaves, or you are a boss, but you get everything you ought for your work by the system which divides stuff among people according to Sauron's, and only his, plans. It's a classic centrally controlled society, if you can even call it a society in the proper sense.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
11-30-2010, 11:22 AM | #23 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,509
|
Quote:
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
|
11-30-2010, 02:40 PM | #24 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
|
Oh, Morth...
For myself, I always figured that there was some kind of "currency" among all the different races of ME, not a unified system, but one that worked among themselves and those with which they did any kind of trade. That Tolkien gave no details of these systems is no surprise to me, since he had an obvious emphasis on culture rather than commerce. But there is plenty of evidence that such systems existed, in the mentions of things like coins, payment, etc. I can't see Sauron feeling any need to have a currency of his own; he didn't pay his slaves, and for things like the bribes offered to Maggot, he probably had caches (no doubt stolen) of the various things needed to do business in the regions where he wanted to "do business." In Aman, since the three groups of Elves have realms with kings, they probably have established some way of doing trade among themselves based on whatever means they might have established prior to the Great Journey. Aman may be the Blessed Realm, but it is not a perfect paradise, nor are the Elves themselves a perfect people. But that's my personal take on things.
__________________
Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill |
11-30-2010, 05:01 PM | #25 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,401
|
an even more accurate translation would be love of riches, not necessarily money.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
12-07-2010, 05:12 AM | #26 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
|
I just saw something very interesting in Unfinishes Tales, of the Druedain: "...the Atani had a knowledge of metals and smith-craft before they came to Beleriand, for metals were hard to come by and forged weapons and tools very costly.
So. There was a sort of monetary system perhaps, even at that time with the Edain...
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
12-07-2010, 05:48 AM | #27 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Quote:
It does not really make sense for the Edain to use any monetary system before they came to Beleriand, what for, expecially if they were just tribal, migrating people (and basically all in one place - who would they trade with)?
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
|
12-08-2010, 02:59 AM | #28 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
|
Quote:
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
|
|
|