Orcrist's owner

[ecthelion]

Does anyone have any idea of who might have owned Orcrist. We know it was forged in Gondolin so several choices appear: Turgon, Tuor, Glorfindel, Ecthelion, Penlod, Maeglin, or did it belong to some unknown soldier? I know there is nothing about it in the silmarillion, but could there be something about it in the history of middle earth volumes.

[Galin]

Nothing in The History of Middle-Earth series to really answer that question, that I remember anyway.

Incidentally, if 'Penlod' was to later exist as a character (as he only appears in the early Fall Of Gondolin published in The Book of Lost Tales if I recall correctly), one thing we might add, noting Penlod 'tallest of Gnomes', is that in the much later version Turgon (Unfinished Tales, note 31, Of Tuor And His Coming To Gondolin) was to appear 'tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol'

According to even later text Argon appears to be taller than Turgon, and then again, Argon had perished before Tuor met Turgon.

[Rumil]

Wasn't Glamdring Turgon's sword originally?

Egalmoth used a curved sword, so not his,

Other than this I guess it's guesswork, though Glamdring and Orcrist do seem to be a 'pair' in some ways

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Wasn't Glamdring Turgon's sword originally?

Yep. Elrond in The Hobbit:

This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore.

Originally Posted by Rumil

Egalmoth used a curved sword, so not his,

and Tuor an axe, so not his either.

Originally Posted by Rumil

Other than this I guess it's guesswork, though Glamdring and Orcrist do seem to be a 'pair' in some ways

Hmmm... you know what, Elrond only says that both swords were made in Gondolin, not that both were owned by Gondolindrim lords. Could Orcrist have been Fingon's?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ecthelion would be the bet no.1 for me, if not, then possibly Glorfindel. But I think Ecthelion would be the most fitting - warrior, strong etc. Isn't there some nice description of Ecthelion mentioning a nice sword (which we could just point at and say "yea, this must have been it!") for example in the tale of Tuor? Otherwise, I don't know. But knowing that Orcrist was supposed to be a very famous blade, I would expect also a rather famous wielder.

EDIT: x-ed with Pitch... interesting observation.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Hmmm... you know what, Elrond only says that both swords were made in Gondolin, not that both were owned by Gondolindrim lords. Could Orcrist have been Fingon's?

I wouldn't think Fingon was the owner. He never set foot in Gondolin, and only met Turgon and the Gondolindrim in the Nirnaeth. Also, he died in that battle, and whatever sword had been in his possession surely would have been buried in the Hill of Slain with his body and never recovered.

I rather like the idea of Ecthelion being the owner of Orcrist, and the sword being saved from the sack of the City, but I can't find any textual basis for it.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I wouldn't think Fingon was the owner. He never set foot in Gondolin, and only met Turgon and the Gondolindrim in the Nirnaeth. Also, he died in that battle, and whatever sword had been in his possession surely would have been buried in the Hill of Slain with his body and never recovered.

Well, my guess was based on Rumil's idea that the two swords seemed to be a pair, so I thought Turgon could have had it made as a gift to his brother. Didn't they really meet at all in the centuries between the founding of Gondolin and the Nirnaeth? Now I think of it, suppose not... Elvish family relations are strange to us mortals. And yeah, I probably should re-read the Silmarillion one of these days.

What other close kinsmen did Turgon have? Maeglin, of course - though I'd imagine he brought his own sword from Eöl's smithy.

Anyway, Orcrist clearly was a renowned blade, so if the owner wasn't kin to Turgon, I'd at least suppose him to be one of the more illustrious chieftains of Gondolin. Ecthelion would be as good a bet as any in that case. (Not Glorfindel, I think - Elrond would have mentioned it if the sword had belonged to a member of his household.*)

*(compulsory meta-remark: this fails to take into account that Tolkien most likely had no idea of a reincarnated Glorfindel's presence in Rivendell when he wrote TH, but never mind.)

[Rumil]

Evening all,

the 'pair' concept was suggested to me by the goblins calling the swords 'Biter and Beater'. And if we go for 'Gondolinites', there are some more to rule out perhaps-

Duilin - bow
Galdor - club
Rog - mace
Salgant - unlikely! not really very renowned....

So we still have Ecthelion, Glorfindel and Penlod, and possibly Duilin as he probably had a sword as well as a bow. Another intriguing possibility is Pengolodh the loremaster, who did escape Gondolin (and might be a version of Penlod?).

I'm going with everyone else and putting my money on Ecthelion!

Oh, hang on, Tuor used the axe Dramborleg indeed, but Turgon left shield, hauberk, sword and helm for Tuor in Vinyamar. So could be Tuor's? Perhaps Turgon, having being instructed by Ulmo, left the very best gear there, as a mark of respect to the command of the Valar.

On the other hand, were Orcrist and Glamdring 'from' Gondolin or 'forged in' Gondolin? If the second, I guess its still just possible that they were made while Turgon's folk were in the process of moving in from Vinyamar.

[ecthelion]

Heres how I see it:

Duilin: famed for his skill with the bow so orcrist was not his
Egalmoth: had a curved sword
Rog: carried a mace
Tuor: favored the axe and used Dramborleg during the Fall of gondolin
Glorfindel: used a sword but fell of the mountainside during his fight with the balrog so it probably wasn't his
Maeglin: stole his fathers sword and most likely used it during a fight
Penlod: used a sword but never (to my knowledge) did anything of great valor or bravory
Turgon: used Glamdring so why would he need another good sword
Salgant: hid in his bedroom during the Fall of Gondolin so I doubt he would become a great orc slayer
Galdor: used a club but most likely also had a sword and he was said to be the most couragous of any of the lords of Gondolin save Turgon but I don't remember him doing anything that would cause his sword to be feared 6000 years later
Ecthelion: he seems to be the most likely person to have wielded Orcrist for three reasons: he was a famed captain of Gondolin, he dropped his sword during his fight with Gothmog (so it could have been easily picked up by an orc), and in the fall of gondolin it says that he lead a charge that resulted in the deaths of thousands of orcs which made his name a terror to their race (as well as, maybe, his sword)

[Galin]

Rumil posted: Another intriguing possibility is Pengolodh the loremaster, who did escape Gondolin (and might be a version of Penlod?).

Internally to the Book of Lost Tales at least, if I recall correctly Penlod was slain.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

While the argument for Ecthelion is strong, the notion of it being Tuor's brings to mind a potentially interesting lineage. What if Tuor, having come by it among Turgon's gear, gave it to Eärendil, who took it with him into the west and used it in his big battle during the War of Wrath? That would be a notable deed, and I could easily see the Valar making sure it was left behind somewhere, knowing it had a destiny in Middle-earth.

Ultimately, though, I think it would have belonged to someone who perished in Gondolin, as both swords were found together and probably got passed along that way. I've long felt that the orcs and other nasties who preserved them did so because of conflicting feelings of fear and greed, wanting to have such precious things, but also wanting to keep them out of circulation. Ecthelion was probably the most famous sword-wielder other than Turgon who died in Gondolin itself, so I think it likely that he was the owner.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

While the argument for Ecthelion is strong, the notion of it being Tuor's brings to mind a potentially interesting lineage. What if Tuor, having come by it among Turgon's gear, gave it to Eärendil, who took it with him into the west and used it in his big battle during the War of Wrath? That would be a notable deed, and I could easily see the Valar making sure it was left behind somewhere, knowing it had a destiny in Middle-earth.

That'd be a really interesting idea, but I think it would be actually more logical for Valar to keep such a sword "out of circulation" and thus, this weapon would remain with Eärendil in his sky-ship forever: that's how it goes with everything that "passes on" to the West. Of course, we have the case of Elessar - dubious case, anyway, with conflicting versions of account - which possibly might have returned, but usually all transfers are just one-way. In any case, we know about Eärendil wielding a sword,

Originally Posted by FotR, Many Meetings

his scabbard of chalcedony;
his sword of steel was valiant

but somehow, the idea of Bilbo, after finishing his song, saying "And this, my dears, was a sword which me and my companions found in one stinky troll-hole", does not really fit the picture... if you get my meaning.

I find the other part of what Ibri said rather more convincing and fitting my image of how things would likely go.

[Mithadan]

Just noticed this thread. I have always assumed that Orcrist was Ecthelion's blade, just as a matter of notoriety rather than deduction, though there are nice analyses here. I like ecthelion's discussion of why Orcrist would have been of great repute.

Tuor is likely out. You would assume he carried his blade with him, so it would not have been part of the spoils of Gondolin. Same applies to Glorfindel; that blade was likely lost or broken when he fell during his duel with the balrog, so it also would probably not have been part of the spoils of Gondolin.

[ecthelion]

Another Fact that points to orcrist being ecthelions blade is that in the fall of gondolin it says that he slew two orc captains and orcabal a champian among Orc soldiers. This would have increased his fame as well as his the fame of his sword.