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07-06-2009, 12:57 PM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
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Two Dark Lords?
Elrond and Gandalf separately remark that to use the One Ring one would become a new Dark Lord. As long as the ring existed Sauron himself would still exist with the same power he had. If Saruman or the Balrog or Gandalf or Elrond had fallen to the Ring what would have happened? Unfinished Tales says that the Nazgul would have bowed to Saruman had he posessed the Ring. These Nazgul could have brought Sauron's armies with him. Would there be a battle of Dark Lords for supremacy?
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07-06-2009, 01:03 PM | #2 |
Gruesome Spectre
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I should say that if the Ring were claimed by one great enough in power and will to wield it, there would certainly be a confrontation between the claimant and Sauron. The winner would have taken Sauron's place as master of the Ring and all that had been wrought with it.
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07-06-2009, 01:28 PM | #3 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Inziladun's got it. In Tolkien's letter to Milton Waldman, he talks about the Ring and Sauron's power being in rapport:
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I won't quote Letter 246 in full, because it's a rather long chunk, but Tolkien does go through possible Ring-lord candidates. He says even when Frodo claimed the Ring in the Sammath Naur he had nowhere near enough power, he wouldn't even be able to control the Nazgul. The Nazgul would have taken Frodo out of the Sammath Naur and straight to Sauron. Aragorn (who was able to best Sauron through the Palantir) would not have the strength either - as no mortal would have. Aragorn barely beat Sauron through the palantir, because the palantir was rightfully Aragorn's, and the contest took place at a distance. Had Aragorn been closer, say as close as Denethor was in proximity to Sauron (Denethor who also by right could use the palantir, but did not have Aragorn's mental strength - and was geographically closer to Sauron) Aragorn would probably have lost his mind in a contest against Sauron, as Denethor did. So, that pretty much leaves (in Middle-earth) the Elves and Maiar, like Gandalf and Saruman. Now Tolkien does say that Gandalf may be the only one capable of besting Sauron for mastery of the Ring, because they are of the same order, and a Ring-wielding Gandalf might beat a ringless-wielding Sauron...however this was all speculative. Elrond and Galadriel also thought they could use the Ring to best Sauron, however Tolkien states that they soon rejected this, knowing the Ring's essential deceit was to fill its bearer with delusions of supreme power. In any case, a battle against Sauron would certainly have to occur, if someone like Gandalf wanted to claim mastery of the Ring. I don't know what contest it would be, I've always imagined something like a battle of 'wills' as was seen between Aragorn and Sauron, Denethor and Sauron, through the Palantir. But who knows?
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07-06-2009, 05:56 PM | #4 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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It's really just my opinion but I seem to get the impression that Galdriel (and possibly Elrond and a still ringed Celebrian) might form slightly special cases of what would happen if someone else took up the ring, that, in thier cases thier rule wouldn't be the same as Sauron's just equally bad, if not worse. as Galdriel said when Frodo offered her the ring "In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair! " It has aways sounded to me as if a Galdriel run ME would be the opposite of Sauron's; a land not smothered in darkenss but burning under the constant glare of a light too bright to endure. The difference is sorta' like some authors I have read have interpeted the Slavic concepts of Chernebog and Byelobog, twin forces, perfectly opposite yet equally terrifying in their extreme purity.
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07-06-2009, 06:14 PM | #5 | |
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07-06-2009, 07:32 PM | #6 | |
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07-06-2009, 08:21 PM | #7 |
Gruesome Spectre
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I see. Thanks for the clarification.
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07-06-2009, 08:35 PM | #8 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Indeed I always thought that rule under Galadriel would be like when Sauron was around in the guise of Annatar. Most would think her benevolent, looking out for the good of all, but eventually she would claim control of everything. We can't forget that (according to most versions of her stories) she came to Middle Earth looking for power and that she was counted the greatest of the Noldor alongside her Uncle. Look how much trouble Feanor managed to stir up.
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07-14-2009, 03:10 PM | #9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The act of successfully claiming the Ring would be all the battle necessary. To make the Ring one's own would require overcoming Sauron himself whether he was present or distant; once accomplished, this would sever Sauron's link to the Ring and Sauron would be defeated by that sundering. The result would likely be the same as with the destruction of the Ring.
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07-14-2009, 03:21 PM | #10 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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07-14-2009, 04:41 PM | #11 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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The letter mentioned by Boromir88 indicates that Sauron would physically confront the claimant, with the victor being the Ring-lord, and the effect if Sauron lost would be the same as if the Ring were destroyed: for him it would be gone forever, with no chance of his regaining it. Simply saying 'The Ring is mine!' as Frodo did, obviously isn't enough to vanquish Sauron.
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07-14-2009, 04:53 PM | #12 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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07-14-2009, 05:08 PM | #13 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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A good question, and one leading me to suggest a conceptual differentiation here.
Now it is clear Frodo could not just claim "the Ring is mine" and govern all the creatures in the ME just by that. Neither could Gollum, or Bilbo. They would have to make the effect somehow leading armies and destroying Sauron or something they probably couldn't do. So there is a question of being able to wield the Ring successfully. Galadriel sure betrays it that she had thought of it and so thinking that she could wield it - and Gandalf for sure sees himself able to wield that thing. And in the end also Boromir seems to think he could do it... So wielding the Ring would require some things not everyone has. Gandalf as a Maia like Sauron could comfortably think he could use it. It is interesting Tolkien let's us think Galadriel thought she could do that as well. With Boromir we might go both ways, maybe he could, maybe he couldn't. But then there is the other question as to what would become of the one using the Ring? It seems clear both Gandalf and Galadriel deny the offers they've made fearing it would turn them into tyrants, other dark lords... Boromir sure had no problem wishing to try it... But if even Gandalf couldn't resist the spell in the Ring if he used it for dominance... then it seems clear the Ring is just the evil thing it is: the evil powermaker for anyone strong enough to claim it's service. So Gandalf would have defeated Sauron with the Ring... Galadriel, Boromir? Maybe. But the results would have been just adding a new tyrant to the throne.
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07-14-2009, 07:57 PM | #14 | ||||
Gruesome Spectre
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And really, by claiming the Ring, haven't you actually been conquered by Sauron already, in a sense? Quote:
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I believe Isildur was greater in all ways than Boromir: as a captain, a warrior, and in strength of will. Quote:
Having written that, the only possible exception might be Everyone's Favourite Enigma, Tom Bombadil. But Tom, as we know, is a special case.
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07-14-2009, 08:18 PM | #15 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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These spiritual duels are not uncommon: Aragorn v. Sauron via Palantir; Gandalf's words of binding and command to the Balrog; Gandalf's overthrowing of Saruman; Melian's Girdle. To resist and assert oneself in the face of, say, Melian's Girdle, would be to prove one's power greater than hers--or, at least, greater than that which she put into the spell. Similarly, the Ring has a will that exerts power and to claim it one must overcome that power. (Melian, of course, would not be overthrown by someone who breached her protective spell, but the nature of Melian's Girdle is different from that of the Ring in that the Girdle was not a repository for a great portion of Melian's sustenance.) |
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07-14-2009, 10:14 PM | #16 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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With someone like Boromir's character, this makes him more susceptible to the Ring, than say Hobbits, or even of other men. In a way you could say his personality pre-disposed him to the Ring's temptation. However, the Ring plays the same old trick with everyone, tempt them with delusions of supreme power. It may have been less noticeable in other characters like Sam and Gollum, but the same deceipts were there. Gollum even has visions of using the Ring to exact revenge on everyone of the nasty people who did him wrong and he could be the great lord, feasting on all the fish he wants. Sam has his vision of leading an army against Sauron and restoring the Gorgorth into a garden. This is the trick of the Ring, Boromir may have been more susceptible, but his visions of granduer are not unique. Bombadil seems to be an exception, but as noted he's a completely different character. This is simply my opinion, there's no way to 'prove' it, but for what it's worth. Bombadil says he is his own master, and Gandalf suggests in the Council that Bombadil would most likely lose the Ring for he would not care. Bombadil has a laissez faire attitude to all of Middle-earth, the only thing he cares about is what he is in control over. Simply put, the Ring has nothing to work with, Bombadil is his own master and doesn't care about Sauron or what he does. He is present in Middle-earth, but at the same time not completely in it (he's just not all there ). All the other characters in the story have something at risk, and Sauron threatens to take it, so the Ring uses its tricks to offer them the power to defeat the Dark Lord they want to see destroyed.
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07-15-2009, 08:43 PM | #17 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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08-31-2009, 11:27 AM | #18 | |
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08-31-2009, 03:57 PM | #19 | ||
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I would say that Boromir and Faramir are sort of like the two halves of Isildur in a way.
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08-31-2009, 09:15 PM | #20 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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A lesser claimant such as Elrond or Galadriel would likely do as you say, using the Ring's powers of command and domination to amass an army great enough to defeat Sauron militarily.
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08-31-2009, 10:29 PM | #21 | ||
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The key would be control the Ring itself through sheer force of will and then to use the power conveyed by it to assemble an army. In contrast to statements above, I think that Aragorn in fact might have done this--this is stated by Legolas: Quote:
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09-01-2009, 01:15 AM | #22 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Inziladun is correct. A successful seizure of ownership would result in Sauron's utter overthrow, as if the Ring had been destroyed. Confrontation is only necessary if the claimant is not powerful enough to sever Sauron's bond with--and thus control over--the Ring.
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05-05-2010, 06:23 AM | #23 |
Newly Deceased
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Controlling the one ring is just a delusion. It is a one way relationship. The only way to maintain control of it is to keep it without using it. And anyone "bonded" to the ring will be able to do its will in the meantime because they cannot be severed from it even if they are completely destroyed. Those with great substance will take longer but each time the ring is used it comes a little closer to dominating its bearer. So once they become wraiths they also become Sauron. It matters little in the end who wields it and how.
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05-05-2010, 09:31 AM | #24 | |
Pile O'Bones
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05-05-2010, 11:27 AM | #25 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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great posts, SoW and deagol.
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05-05-2010, 12:17 PM | #26 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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05-05-2010, 12:37 PM | #27 | ||||
Gruesome Spectre
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x/d with Ibrin
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05-18-2010, 01:31 PM | #28 | |
Animated Skeleton
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Frodo was somewhat tied to the Ring, but he fought it every step of the way. That kept the Ring from really getting inside his head, so to speak. It could tell Frodo was going to Mordor, but not WHERE in Modor. That kept it from leaving the Ringbearer.
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05-18-2010, 02:03 PM | #29 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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But the Ring was still Sauron's, and if it had "thoughts," they would have been Sauron's. And as he could not conceive of anyone wanting to destroy it, the Ring would not have "thought" it possible until it was about to happen. At which point, it put everything it had into breaking Frodo's will so that he would make the mistake of claiming it, thus revealing himself to Sauron. It seems clear to me that the Ring needed a bearer to act as a sort of "antenna" through which its presence could be broadcast to Sauron, and that bearer needed to claim it to activate that potential. If mere proximity were enough, Sauron should have known the Ring was in Mordor once Frodo carried it past the Watchers. But he didn't. Whoa, it feels like that train of thought went wandering off the track...
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05-18-2010, 06:43 PM | #30 |
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It could have been a situation similar to something brought up a bit earlier in this thread - Sauron anticipated Frodo's activities and let him come through Mordor, but underestimated the Hobbit and expected him to claim the Ring before reaching the Cracks of Doom. Then Sauron would know exactly where the Ringbearer was, send a Nazgul, and get the ring back. He knew Frodo's will wasn't strong enough to master the Ring. Frodo's resitance and Gollum's unexpected role messed up Sauron's plans.
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