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04-23-2010, 05:07 AM | #1 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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Couldn't Niniel and Turin have worked it out?
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One of my favorite features in Barrow-Downs is the ever-changing quotes on the top right corner, and today it showed this passage: Quote:
I know that she was pregnant (and thus her hormones might have added to her impetuousness), but couldn't Niniel the Tearmaiden pause and assess her situation? I mean, brother marries sister in lots of cultures (especially in royal families, to keep the bloodline pure), And I suspect that Niniel didn't receive much of ethical or moral sermons on sexual purity from Morwen while on the road; Even if she did, nowhere on Silmarillion does Eru or the Valar state: "thou shalt not marry thine own brethren". Why would it be a sin? It would be weird, but not Oedipal marry-your-mother weird. Besides, isn't suicide/infanticide sinful as well? Don't you think Niniel and Turin might have worked out a viable solution other than double-suicide to this tangled web of deceit, if Niniel realized in time that Turin was unconscious but still alive? Somehow overcome this, together? I know that I'm a sucker for happy endings, but I cannot help but wonder whether Niniel would've killed herself she knew Turin lived. I understand her jumping off a cliff in her despair at her husband's death and the shock of what she found out, But what would Niniel and Turin have done if Niniel knew Turin was alive? (I assume filing for divorce wasn't an option, but still.) . Last edited by Eorl of Rohan; 04-23-2010 at 05:31 AM. |
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04-23-2010, 09:52 AM | #2 | ||||||||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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In Tolkien's world, such intermarriage seems to be strictly taboo, even without an 'official' decree from the Valar. We see it in the Eldar, with Maeglin: Quote:
And the Dúnedain in Númenor, who took many of their laws and customs from the Elves: Quote:
So there are two examples of close marriages being disallowed, and both those instances merely regard first cousins. Incest between immediate family would have been an even greater horror to those in Middle-earth, at least those of the 'enlightened', in the west. It seems clear that it wasn't the thought of Túrin being dead that drove Níniel to madness, but the knowledge the she was carrying his child. Quote:
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04-23-2010, 10:26 AM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Posts: 602
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Aw. I was hoping against hope that there was no reference about taboo of marriage between close kinds in Tolkien's works, but I guess that's dashed.
I should have liked to dream of a possible happy future for Turin and Niniel. |
04-23-2010, 11:38 AM | #4 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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As for suicide - personally, I've never understood why this is so widely considered sinful or immoral. Tragic, certainly, but how is voluntarily ending one's own life sinful? However, that's just my view; I expect Tolkien would have agreed that it was sinful. One does wonder what he thought the 'correct' response would have been on both Nienor's and Turin's parts. |
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04-23-2010, 11:43 AM | #5 |
Pilgrim Soul
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There is certainly a knowledge of keeping bloodlines pure in Tolkien especially with the Dunedain where the purer houses in Gondor are the longest lived and their lifetime is less than those of the North because of mingling with lesser stock. Of course in the real world inbreeding is much more likely to cause a diminishment in health and mind.
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04-23-2010, 12:35 PM | #6 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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As for suicide being seen as sinful: there is a very good logic behind it, in my opinion, and I am saying that as a person whose close friend had actually commited suicide. The main underlying point would be that it is not just your personal problem and decision. It is ultimately an utterly cowardly and selfish deed, thinking that "with being dead, I don't have to worry about anything anymore". But it's not only about oneself, but also about the other people who knew that person, and who are still left here living their lives. That friend of mine wiped out all knowledge of his existence, like throwing away things from his home and erasing all files from his computer, making it seem as if he never existed. But to all those people who knew him, of course, it was not as easy as that to just forget that he existed. Namely his parents. The point is, there is a certain network of people around everybody and he is in some way responsible to them. This is further emphasised also by the classic religious explanation of suicide being sinful because your life is not ultimately yours to take because it also was not you to give it to yourself in the first place. The general explanation (and I think shared by more religious worldviews, and in my opinion not impossible to adapt even by non-religiously thinking people) is that you are born here, which is not just a random privilege, but it puts you in a certain situation with certain responsibilities. (And from this point, you can start thinking about basically everything in this world in a different perspective, I am not going to start on that here, you can surely imagine on your own.)
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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04-24-2010, 07:21 PM | #7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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04-24-2010, 07:49 PM | #8 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Technically, I don't think it is. But that's a discussion we probably don't want to get into here.
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04-24-2010, 09:31 PM | #9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Suicide is sinful because all deliberately self-destructive practices are sinful. A righteous man recognizes his life and health as gifts from God, which he would never willfully spurn.
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04-26-2010, 08:45 AM | #10 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Niniel, knowing now that her child was Turin's, may have believed that her child, being in the line of Hurin (not half, but from both sides), would allow Morgoth to continue his tortuous game with the next generation of this sorrowful family. In her despair, but also, like her family, in defiance of Morgoth, she sacrificed herself and the life of her child to thwart the Dark Lord's plans. Who knows what life this child would have had? Thralldom? A Dark Child under Morgoth, used as a weapon against the Free Elves and Men? Does this sanction suicide or homicide? Not in the least. This was a special person in special circumstances. Didn't see anything proscribing suicide in Arda. Tolkien, being a Christian in our world, had other beliefs outside his created world. And it is believed that his God is a god of love and grace, which all surely need, even those like Niniel.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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04-26-2010, 09:53 AM | #11 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Sacrifice and suicide are patently different beasts, separated by the motives which precipitate their advent. On one hand, a willingness to pay the ultimate price in furtherance of some righteous goal, or in protection of another, ennobles the act. On the other hand, suicide accomplishes only the cessation of emotional pain for the deceased, often leaving far more grievous emotional pain in its wake. It can thus be characterized as selfish and cowardly. Again, from a religious standpoint, the argument might be made that a more righteous man would turn to God for, if not relief from woe, strength to overcome it. |
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04-26-2010, 11:27 AM | #12 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Just for those who wondered whether marriage between siblings was practiced legally in the Ancient world,it did only im Ancient Edypt,particularly in the Hellinistic and Roman period,of which we have many racords.
In the rest of antiquity,when practised it was considered immoral and sinful(see the case of Caligula). For more information check:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest#History
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04-26-2010, 12:54 PM | #13 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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But I don't believe she was thinking that way. I think she was just desperate and acting mainly irrationally, overwhelmed by despair. I don't think she was in the mood to spin any complicated theories. "I am doomed, we are all doomed, we are all cursed, Túrin happy to be dead, wish I were dead too" - quite easy train of thought turned into a deed. Nothing unusual there. As for seeing suicide as sinful in Middle-Earth, though, I would still assume Tolkien holding it as sinful even in Middle-Earth. Well, "sinful", I haven't seen much of a definition of "sin" in Middle-Earth, but certainly something rather wrong and something normal healthy and sane people would not do. Look at what Gandalf tells to Denethor. "The houses of the dead are no place for the living" is his greeting to him - meaning obviously both him and Faramir, you can easily see the general opinion behind it. Quite plainly it is said here: Quote:
That said, this is not exactly the same as the case of Nienor. It is given by the basic logic of the tale those people are present in. Nienor's is ultimately dark and ends badly. Denethor could have seen the day of victory and, had he overcame his pride, even see quite happy days of bringing his Stewardship to fulfilment. However, one important point I would like to raise here is that the tale never concludes these stories with any grim notes condemning those people. It is not that Narn or the Red Book would tell the people of Middle-Earth "do not commit suicide" and making examples of Denethor and Nienor and Túrin (and Maedhros, although he was an Elf, so maybe somewhat different rules apply), they just portray suicide as a desperate tragic act, implying logically that it should be avoided, but not saying that it is anything deserving any further punishment: the talk of punishment is completely out of the scope of these stories. Obviously, as also any existence after death is completely out of scope and is utterly different from the life before it (shown in the fact that it is portrayed as uncharted and alien, but at the same time with affirmation of personal continuity and with the view towards the last Great Music. I must note here that I like it, because Tolkien's image of post-mortal life is, in a way, here lot more sober and "more Christian" than many latter, esp. medieval Christian depictions, in avoiding the overspammed images of post-mortal life. Maybe the people in Middle-Earth had in a way still just too clear contact with the divine - having basically eyewitnesses among themselves - to avoid the massive creations of images of post-mortal life, in contrary to our world. Although we are talking about the West here again, who knows if some Easterlings or Southrons didn't have their own invented mythologies).
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories Last edited by Legate of Amon Lanc; 04-26-2010 at 12:57 PM. |
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04-27-2010, 08:47 AM | #14 | |||||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Both had suffered losses, were in fantastic situations - well, of course - meaning that these days weren't like most others. Faramir had been under the Shadow as well. Both tried 'death by orc' as the means, and were unsuccessful in their attempts. Do we think poorly of them? Any talk of their 'sin?' Niniel was in the same situation as the two examples above, and happened to choose a more effective method. Quote:
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If Turin will be present at the Dagor Dagorath, complete jerk that he was, won't there be any grace for poor Niniel? Pity those lost who wander down that dark road...
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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04-27-2010, 09:16 AM | #15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Just to toss in my two cents, I would venture to say that a key element in suicide, as Tolkien presents it, is the matter of pride and/or despair that Gandalf mentions. Both Nienor and Denethor killed themselves in despair. Éowyn actively sought death (and kept on seeking it) in despair, until her despair was healed. I get a feeling that Faramir felt more frustration than despair, that it seemed that nothing he could do, short of dying, would win his father's approval.
But in Tolkien's world, one would have a hard time always defining the willful ending of one's life as the "sin" of suicide. The Númenoreans, blessed with long lives, were supposed to surrender the gift of life and accept the Gift of death when the time came. Evil often resulted when persons refused to die and lingered beyond their appointed time. In the broad sense of suicide being the willful ending of one's life, then Aragorn committed suicide when he accepted the Gift. But Tolkien doesn't present this in a negative light, rather as something natural and expected. Although Arwen is upset by it, Aragorn isn't; there is no element of despair on his part. But his lying down and dying is as deliberate an act as Nienor jumping off the cliff. Tolkien, I think, had a clear personal sense of a natural order of life and death, and despair and excessive pride goes against that order, perverting it.
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04-27-2010, 09:24 AM | #16 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I agree wholly with Ibrin. My explanations were intended for Aiwendil, who had heard that suicide is sinful, but never understood why. They have little bearing on Middle-earth.
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