The Fathers of Dwarves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Curulin · 12-28-2002, 12:15 PM

Hello all.
i have a probably obvious question, the answer to which can be found somewhere in the silmarillion, but what happened to the other dwarf fathers (apart from durin the deathless) and their kin? Did some go into the east when they awoke( where did they awake?)? Are lots of the dwarves in the silmarillion from the other fathers? Also, are the 7 rings of power given to the dwarves by Sauron given to the descendants of the 7 houses or just to powerful dwarves?
Sorry about all these questions, im just curious and want to find out all i can!
thanks, curulin

tom bombariffic · 12-28-2002, 04:41 PM

Yes, I've always wondered this too. I dont know, but I would have assumed that one ring would go to each house of elves, one to each dwarvish house and one to each house of men. However, I have heard that this isnt so with men, so maybe it isnt for the others either. Oh dear, I dont seem to have been much help. Ah well.

Bombariffic

Manwe Sulimo · 12-28-2002, 06:10 PM

There were probably no clearly defined "house" structures after the geneologies, since there were only three major Dwarven settlements in the First Age (Belegost, Nogrod, and Khazad-dûm). Even though, I believe that one Ring went to the currently living descendent of each of the fathers. Thráin had one of the Seven, and was descendent from Dúrin. Also, a Ring was at the base of all the seven "hoardes" of the Dwarves (can't find the exact quote) and it makes sense that, having no other obvious divisions, the seven groups would each have one hoard.

the real findorfin · 12-28-2002, 06:14 PM

As an aside queston...

How to the Petty Dwarves fit in? Are they descended from Aule's 'fathers' or not? if not, where do they come from?

doug*platypus · 12-29-2002, 06:52 AM

Good point, here. It is written (somewhere - sorry!) that Durin's House were the only Dwarves that had contact with the Elves, and that none of the other Houses come into any of the tales. But if that is so, then why did Celebrimbor (or whoever actually gave them) give a Ring of Power to these other 6 Houses that he never had any dealings with?

Perhaps Sauron, as Annatar, travelled to the other Dwarf realms to dole them out and attempt to control other Dwarf Houses. The only other explanation could be that all Seven went to Dwarves of Durin's House. The Messenger of Mordor described by Gloin (The Council of Elrond, Book II) talks about Sauron rewarding Dain with

Quote:

rings, such as he gave in the past

We know that four were consumed by dragons, and three were recovered by Sauron - one from Thrain in Dol Guldur. Were the other two taken by Goblins in one of the many battles of the Goblin Wars, to be recovered by Nazgul later?

By the way, Bombadil, two Elf rings were given to Gil-Galad and one to Galadriel - not very systematic.

arelendil · 12-29-2002, 09:44 AM

May be when the rings were given out the 'fathers' of the dwarves were still alive so they just gave them to them. Or maybe there were seven realms and we were never told about them. I mean the sil says that Aule put the dwarves to sleep seperate in opposite corners of the world(I know there aren't seven corners in a world). So maybe there were dwarves in the east that weren't mentioned. And what with the changing shapes of Arda maybe some where lost below the sea or were on some remote Island somewhere.

Its also possible that one dwarf had more than one ring, like a spare for sunday. Or maybe there were dragons dressed up as dwarves who were given the rings and then ate them, thus destroying the four that were missing straight away so there wouldn't be an arguements.

**lindil** · 12-29-2002, 10:56 AM

I am sure this is covered exstensilvly in earlier threads, but the Peoples of M-E [ HoME 12] goes into detail about the 7 fathers and their houses.

For those who have read Silm and then UT [ the usual order] I hardily recommend HoME 10-12 for 3 more gold mine's almost equal to UT [or more so depending on your passsion I suupose]. I especially would get them now before they go OOP in HB [ because you will use them over and over].

I present a precis of p.301:

Longbeards [ house of Durin] = Moria
Firebeards = north of the Blue Mntns.
Broadbeams = Mt Gundabad [gundabad is in origin a khuzdul name]
at distances as great or greater between Gundabad and the Blue Mountains awaoke the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots. These 4 points were far sundered.

JRRT also calls them [ the Dwarves] the most redoubtable warriors of all of the speaking peoples.

[ December 29, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

doug*platypus · 01-02-2003, 02:31 AM

COOOOLL!! Thanks heaps, Lindil, I think I'll have to knuckle down and read the later HOME books. UT and Sil are much more fun to read, though.

Quote:

I especially would get them now before they go OOP in HB [ because you will use them over and over].

Damn! You really like books, don't you? Fair enough.

Re-reading Appendix A today I found mention of other houses of the Dwarves coming to help out Durin's Folk in the Goblin Wars. This means that contact with the other houses was by no means out of the question, so perhaps the Rings were given, one to each house. Sauron or his emissaries travelled to the East and South of ME, after all. The Appendix also states that, at least in the case of Durin's Folk, the Ring could not master a Dwarf-lord and make him subject to Sauron's will. So maybe he intended to use corrupted Dwarves in his armies, but his plan didn't work. Go Dwarf!

12-28-2002, 12:15 PM	#1
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	The Fathers of Dwarves Hello all. i have a probably obvious question, the answer to which can be found somewhere in the silmarillion, but what happened to the other dwarf fathers (apart from durin the deathless) and their kin? Did some go into the east when they awoke( where did they awake?)? Are lots of the dwarves in the silmarillion from the other fathers? Also, are the 7 rings of power given to the dwarves by Sauron given to the descendants of the 7 houses or just to powerful dwarves? Sorry about all these questions, im just curious and want to find out all i can! thanks, curulin __________________ Well, I'm back.

12-28-2002, 04:41 PM	#2
tom bombariffic Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In the house of Tom Bombariffic Posts: 196	Yes, I've always wondered this too. I dont know, but I would have assumed that one ring would go to each house of elves, one to each dwarvish house and one to each house of men. However, I have heard that this isnt so with men, so maybe it isnt for the others either. Oh dear, I dont seem to have been much help. Ah well. Bombariffic __________________ The 'hum' generated by an electric car is not in fact the noise of the engine, but that of the driver's self-righteousness oscillating at a high frequency.

12-28-2002, 06:10 PM	#3
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	There were probably no clearly defined "house" structures after the geneologies, since there were only three major Dwarven settlements in the First Age (Belegost, Nogrod, and Khazad-dûm). Even though, I believe that one Ring went to the currently living descendent of each of the fathers. Thráin had one of the Seven, and was descendent from Dúrin. Also, a Ring was at the base of all the seven "hoardes" of the Dwarves (can't find the exact quote) and it makes sense that, having no other obvious divisions, the seven groups would each have one hoard. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-28-2002, 06:14 PM	#4
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	As an aside queston... How to the Petty Dwarves fit in? Are they descended from Aule's 'fathers' or not? if not, where do they come from? __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

12-29-2002, 09:44 AM	#6
arelendil Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Eryn Lasgalen Posts: 202	May be when the rings were given out the 'fathers' of the dwarves were still alive so they just gave them to them. Or maybe there were seven realms and we were never told about them. I mean the sil says that Aule put the dwarves to sleep seperate in opposite corners of the world(I know there aren't seven corners in a world). So maybe there were dwarves in the east that weren't mentioned. And what with the changing shapes of Arda maybe some where lost below the sea or were on some remote Island somewhere. Its also possible that one dwarf had more than one ring, like a spare for sunday. Or maybe there were dragons dressed up as dwarves who were given the rings and then ate them, thus destroying the four that were missing straight away so there wouldn't be an arguements. __________________ Nai Vardo eleni ilye lumenn' enomentielvo siluvar!

12-29-2002, 10:56 AM	#7
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I am sure this is covered exstensilvly in earlier threads, but the Peoples of M-E [ HoME 12] goes into detail about the 7 fathers and their houses. For those who have read Silm and then UT [ the usual order] I hardily recommend HoME 10-12 for 3 more gold mine's almost equal to UT [or more so depending on your passsion I suupose]. I especially would get them now before they go OOP in HB [ because you will use them over and over]. I present a precis of p.301: Longbeards [ house of Durin] = Moria Firebeards = north of the Blue Mntns. Broadbeams = Mt Gundabad [gundabad is in origin a khuzdul name] at distances as great or greater between Gundabad and the Blue Mountains awaoke the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots. These 4 points were far sundered. JRRT also calls them [ the Dwarves] the most redoubtable warriors of all of the speaking peoples. [ December 29, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.