Sauron's lack of Death...

[Dakêsîntrah]

That Sauron and other spirits cannot die is a problem Tolkien fails to deal with, either because he doesn't realize it, or he can't work it into his history, to meet with fair consistency.

Here is the crux of the problem: Iluvatar seems to be less and less involved in the plight of Arda as Tolkien's history goes on.

Tolkien obviously derives his mythology from the Biblical elohim. If Illuvatar is eternal "God," he ought to be able to destroy the lesser "gods" of Melkor and Sauron. They are created beings, thus, they are not eternal. Hence, Iluvatar is able to destroy them like Arda Beings. You see, it doesn't make sense for Iluvatar to let Melkor or even Sauron float around in the Void or wherever for eternity.

Just like the Biblical council of elohim (gods), there is an existing hierarchy of lesser gods. Melkor was a lesser Eru (elohim) "like unto Eru," while Sauron was a lesser Ainur, "like unto Melkor" (Maiar, angel, messenger, i.e, lesser elohim). Gandalf is also a Messenger, of that lower tier of gods. And this is where I believe Tolkien, either by misunderstanding Biblical narrative, or by not realizing it, departs from similarity. Gandalf is *not* a parallel of Christ, because Christ as the Son was not a simple messenger, i.e, a lower tier of elohim. I would see Gandalf as more of a parallel to Moses than anyone. Tolkien obviously derives his Ainulindalë from the Council of El in the Bible.

The question must be asked instead: We know after Sauron is defeated there ushers in the Fourth Age, the age of Men. Yet, there is really no fulfillment of redemption for Arda itself. The Men still live on a corrupted plane of existence. Hence, from all of this, I believe Evil was still not defeated after the Third Age. I think it's a pity that Tolkien died before having completed the mythology, because we do know how there arose yet another evil in the Fourth Age.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

Tolkien obviously derives his Ainulindalë from the Council of El in the Bible.

I actually really like your post... but this line irks me greatly, and I cannot resist the impulse to respond.

While I agree that there is definitely a good parallel to me made, I am deeply hesitant to ascribe to Tolkien a knowledge of the Council of El from the Bible, which is the sort of Scriptural knowledge that I do not think would have been particularly commonplace in 1920 (to give a later date for the earliest phase of the mythology), and certainly wouldn't have been among Catholics. While the parallel certainly works--and may even have appealed to Tolkien--I think you're on very sketchy ground in terms of saying that this is where Tolkien got it from. Tolkien's own statements would seem to suggest that he was trying to emulate the Greek or Norse pantheons, and then to reconcile this with his own intractable Catholic beliefs, thus producing the hybridised Eru/Valar theological structure.

In this structure, however, the Valar are not "like unto Eru" in the same way that the Maiar are lesser Valar. On the contrary--the Valar are more like the Children, Elves and Men, than they are like Eru. As the Silmarillion says (I paraphrase), "they are like elder siblings" to the Children. Like the Children, they are created beings, whereas Eru is the Creator. To apply the Analogy of Being (which is how a good Catholic would think--even if not articulated thus), the greater the similarity between something in the creature and something in the creator, the greater the difference between them. There is a gulf of distinction between the infinite power of Eru and the finite (albeit vast compared with the Children's) power of the Valar.

My theologising about the nature of Eru may be importing too much "real world" philosophy--though I'm unapologetic--but hopefully my main point that I think it would be ridiculously sketchy to call the Council of El a certain source for Tolkien will come across. Otherwise, as I said, the analogy works (though as my digressions suggest, not perfectly), but declaring that a source seems highly unlikely unless you have evidence that Tolkien was well acquainted with Scripture and scriptural exegesis during the First World War.

[Faramir Jones]

Pitchwife referred briefly to what happened to Morgoth when he was defeated a second time, at the end of the First Age. Fellow fans might be interested to read the relevant passage in full:

The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwë and Námo) that, although he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself' and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ëa altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda. (The History of Middle-earth: X. Morgoth's Ring (London: Harper Collins Publishers, 1994), p. 403.)

[Faramir Jones]

Sarumian talked earlier about Sauron being able to restore his physical presence a number of times, though with increasingly greater difficulty. Tolkien talked about this in a letter he wrote on 25th June 1957, to a Major R. Brown:

It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructable like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. (Letters, Letter 200, p. 260.)

Tolkien then spoke of Sauron, after the War of the Last Alliance, taking longer to re-build than he had after the Downfall of Númenor:

(I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book. (Ibid.)