Celeborn's Doom?

[Willow]

What was the doom that Celeborn referred to in ROTK?
'But Celeborn said [to Aragorn]: "Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!"' He didn't pass over the Sea with Galadriel. But why was he "doomed", and why couldn't he go with Galadriel? In the Silmarillion, the Sindar were allowed to pass over the sea. Did this change? And did he later go? Or was his doom just to remain in ME longer than Galadriel?

[lindil]

iAs far as I know we are never told explicitly. It could be that Celeborn wished never to leave Middle-Earth and so felt his parting with Galadriel was till the end of the World.

Or it could be that he knew it would be a long time before he departed.

Oddly enough, he left Lothlorien and went to Southern Mirkwood and we hear in the tale of Aragorn and Arwen that Lothlorien was deserted when she went at around what, yr.100 4th age?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

About 120 actually, I think.

The Galadrim were mostly Silvan Elves. Silvan Elves are, naturally, forest-dwellers; Lothlorien was a forest, but of course not exactly your average one. It had been influenced by great power. The Mallorns there had been brought from Eressea and were not native to Middle-Earth, and Galadriel's Ring had certainly had big effect. Therefore, once she and her Ring left, the Silvan Galadrim mostly migrated to 'East Lorien' -- Southern Greenwood. The somewhat magical forest was not their natural setting (more suited to High Elves, who liked that kind of thing better, and the Sindar who had lived under Melian) and still less as the Dominion of Men came over them. They faded and became as Thranduil's Elves in the greenwood, and the high might of Lothlorien was unavoidably lost. (Well they're my thoughts on this matter anyway).

Celeborn did in fact leave, becoming 'wearied of his new realm'. He was not Silvan, but a Sinda and one of Doriath at that. He departed before Arwen came to Lorien. Probably, Celeborn's words to Aragorn meant this: 'I am an Elf-King, and as such, my time of glory on Middle-Earth is past. May your fate as the King of Men be otherwise.'

[Manwe Sulimo]

Actually, Celeborn went to Rivendell to dwell with his grandsons Elladan and Elrohir, after the Ringbearers went West. There's a quote from the Prologue:

It is said that Celeborn went to dwell [in Rivendell] after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.

So, unless there's information elsewhere, we don't even know if he left Middle-earth.

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ]

[Voronwe]

So, unless there's information elsewhere, we don't even know if he left Middle-earth.

I would say the phrasing of quote you gave, in particular the use of the word 'went', at least strongly suggests that Celeborn left Middle Earth eventually, even though the exact time is not recorded.

Perhaps Celeborn left on the last ship with Cirdan, since otherwise he would not have had 'the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth'.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I agree with Veronwe that it would seem most likely that as the last/next highest-ranked member of the Sindar that Celeborn departed with Cirdan's last ship, but who knows.

Even if he lingered in Imladris or elsewhere even after the passing of Arwen (long before which time her brothers would themselves most certainly have departed or become mortal like her), Celeborn ultimate had to go into the West.

Some Silvan elves (those most akin to Avari rather than Nandorin) may have stayed, but as a true Eldar, Celeborn was destined to depart, along with all the rest via the Grey Havens, such as Thranduil, Galdor and all of the Grey/Green-Elves.

Some Silvan or partially Silvan Elves like Legolas (I'm presuming that Thranduil's wife might have been Nandorin) may have still sailed down Andiun or left from Dol Amroth for some while after Cirdan's last Grey Haven's ship. Unlike his earlier ritings, Tolkien I think dropped the idea that Elves continued to sail over until the present time, but rather that some Silvan and especially the true East-Elves merely stayed and faded into the background, not unlike Hobbits and Dwarves.

As for what Celeborn says to Aragorn, I think he is merely supporting Aragorn's desire to marry his granddaughter, and (perhaps unwittingly) foreshadowing that he and Galadriel will be separated for awhile ere his end in Middle-Earth. Or possibly, he is referring to Elrond and Celebrian.