How much did Gandalf know or guess? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Firefoot · 01-17-2004, 12:50 PM

In RotK when Gandalf and the Mouth of Sauron are talking, the Mouth of Sauron shows everyone Frodo and Sam's stuff and names his terms, Gandalf refuses. I had always thought that this was just because the terms were absolutely ridiculous for just the return of one Hobbit. But I got to thinking: were there any more reasons that Gandalf said no way? For example, the Mouth of Sauron said "spy" and not "spies", as well as several other instances where he uses the singular and not the plural. Could Gandalf have taken this to mean (correctly) that they had only caught one Hobbit? Also, wouldn't Gandalf had known that Sauron did not have the Ring, because if he did why would Sauron have sent out his emissary to bargain with them? If he had the Ring he wouldn't need to bargain would he? He could just conquer everyone. I think that Gandalf probably would still have seen hope in the Quest if he was able to figure these things out, resulting in his "utter rejection" of the terms.

On the other hand of this, you have the description "but those nearby saw the anguish in his face, and now he seemed an old and wizened man, crushed, defeated at last. They did not doubt he would accept". This description would lead you to believe that Gandalf truly believes the Quest had failed and there is no hope. Did Gandalf start to put things together then, while the Mouth of Sauron was reading his terms?

I'm curious to see what your thoughts are on the matter.

Thengal · 01-17-2004, 12:59 PM

Either what you said or if Gandalf that Sauron had the hobbits and there was no hope maybe he just thought, "Well this is the end might as well take a couple thousand orcs with me!" [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

symestreem · 01-17-2004, 01:33 PM

Gandalf knew that Sauron did not have the Ring. He probably figured out that they had only captured one hobbit, but the Mouth had items from both hobbits. So perhaps he wasn't sure for a bit. Also, even if he knew one of the hobbits was free, he must have felt anguish for the one that was captured. And perhaps another part of the "wizening" was that he was afraid the Quest would be betrayed or revealed.

Finwe · 01-17-2004, 04:02 PM

Gandalf knew that Frodo and Sam's quest was very close to hopeless. For a couple of seconds, the emotional part of him could have led him to believe that the Ring was indeed taken, and all of Middle-earth utterly doomed, but the rational part of him would have taken over in a few moments, and led him to realize through the subtle hints previously mentioned, that the Ring had not been captured at all. If one Hobbit was free, and had the Ring, they still had to give that one Hobbit a chance to destroy the Ring. It was their only hope.

01-17-2004, 12:50 PM	#1
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	How much did Gandalf know or guess? In RotK when Gandalf and the Mouth of Sauron are talking, the Mouth of Sauron shows everyone Frodo and Sam's stuff and names his terms, Gandalf refuses. I had always thought that this was just because the terms were absolutely ridiculous for just the return of one Hobbit. But I got to thinking: were there any more reasons that Gandalf said no way? For example, the Mouth of Sauron said "spy" and not "spies", as well as several other instances where he uses the singular and not the plural. Could Gandalf have taken this to mean (correctly) that they had only caught one Hobbit? Also, wouldn't Gandalf had known that Sauron did not have the Ring, because if he did why would Sauron have sent out his emissary to bargain with them? If he had the Ring he wouldn't need to bargain would he? He could just conquer everyone. I think that Gandalf probably would still have seen hope in the Quest if he was able to figure these things out, resulting in his "utter rejection" of the terms. On the other hand of this, you have the description "but those nearby saw the anguish in his face, and now he seemed an old and wizened man, crushed, defeated at last. They did not doubt he would accept". This description would lead you to believe that Gandalf truly believes the Quest had failed and there is no hope. Did Gandalf start to put things together then, while the Mouth of Sauron was reading his terms? I'm curious to see what your thoughts are on the matter.

01-17-2004, 01:33 PM	#3
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 728	Gandalf knew that Sauron did not have the Ring. He probably figured out that they had only captured one hobbit, but the Mouth had items from both hobbits. So perhaps he wasn't sure for a bit. Also, even if he knew one of the hobbits was free, he must have felt anguish for the one that was captured. And perhaps another part of the "wizening" was that he was afraid the Quest would be betrayed or revealed. __________________ A Gandalf-uncloaking-free zone.

01-17-2004, 04:02 PM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Gandalf knew that Frodo and Sam's quest was very close to hopeless. For a couple of seconds, the emotional part of him could have led him to believe that the Ring was indeed taken, and all of Middle-earth utterly doomed, but the rational part of him would have taken over in a few moments, and led him to realize through the subtle hints previously mentioned, that the Ring had not been captured at all. If one Hobbit was free, and had the Ring, they still had to give that one Hobbit a chance to destroy the Ring. It was their only hope. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-17-2004, 12:59 PM	#2
Thengal Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 63	Either what you said or if Gandalf that Sauron had the hobbits and there was no hope maybe he just thought, "Well this is the end might as well take a couple thousand orcs with me!" [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]