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[alatar]

First, this:

[alatar]

And now this:

So how did all of that work? Say, for example, you're some lonely scraggly traveler on the Great Road and you near Rivendell. Could you gain entrance? If so, how long could you stay? Would Elrond expect something in return for lodging, or could you eat from his tables and sleep in his house for as long as you wanted?

The Hobbits were special visitors, not only because of the burden Frodo carried but also because they had Gandalf as a friend and herald. Frodo too was considered an elf friend, and so surely that would help him at Rivendell.

Boromir was admitted as, assumedly, Elrond had some foresight that this human would be one of the Nine Walkers. The Dwarves too had a purpose that helped Elrond's cause, and having them in the Council brought more news to the fore. And even Bilbo's group of Dwarven companions stopped on their way, if I remembers rightly.

Aragorn lived there, and so of course had the run of the place. And I assume that all elves would be admitted and could stay as long as the Age lasted.

But again, what about me? Could I get in? How long could I stay? And would I have to pay?

[Andsigil]

I think most people shied away from Rivendell. If I remember correctly, even Boromir had some apprehensions about going up there.

I get the impression that elves were so insular that their reputations suffered. The mystique surrounding Galadriel and Lorien proved to be quite unjustified (at least in relation to men).

Some of this makes me wonder what kind of reputation Cirdan and they Grey Havens had in the late 3rd Age.

[Inziladun]

That's a nicely designed flier! The Prancing Pony must have had some of those in a stand with a sign over it saying "Eriador Attractions".

From the books, it appears that no one but Elves and Gandalf go to Rivendell on a regular basis. Even the Rangers (other than Aragorn, who, as you say was a special case) aren't mentioned as staying there, and you'd think they would be likely to do so if they could.
The most frequent travelers after them were probably Dwarves, and they likely would sleep in ditches filled with Trolls' bath water before they'd willingly put themselves at the hospitality of Elves.
Gandalf does appear to be the catalyst that brought 'outsiders' to Rivendell in most cases, and as his real identity was known to Elrond, his judgement was obviously trusted.
The Council was a unique event, and Elrond seems to have accepted that it was 'meant' to be, and that all who showed up for it should be admitted.
Beyond that, I think it was pretty much closed to the wanderer. After all, it was originally founded by Elrond as a 'refuge' and a 'stronghold', so you wouldn't think any old ragged wayfarer would be allowed to find it. Otherwise, couldn't the Witch-king possibly have infiltrated it somehow when he was warring with the Dúnedain?

[Mnemosyne]

I wonder if Vilya was able to create a miniature, less effective version of the Girdle of Melian?

That way earlier in the Age if people were fleeing across the mountains due to turmoil there could be some way that the Last Homely House would be made nice and Homely, but less of a security threat, since anyone evil wouldn't even find it, right?

Just trying to figure out ways to square Rivendell's generosity away with its hidden nature.

[Mithalwen]

Brilliant Alatar!

I seem to remember from the Hobbit that Rivendell was pretty well hidden - even Gandalf struggled a bit finding the way. We don't get a description of the last stage of the hobbits' journey in but they were with Glorfindel and Aragorn who obviously knew the way. The Dunedain would probably know since they were semi-based there but I doubt its exact location was widely known among non-Rivendell elves. Legolas probably knew through contact with Gandalf and Aragorn re Gollum's capture (if not from family connection with Celeborn who had lived there a while).

Boromir found it either because he was "meant to" or because in such times the elves were not complacent enough to rely on geography and enchantment and set a watch and found him. We know that other elves than Glorfindel were sent out to look for Frodo - maybe one of those found Boromir in the vicinity.

[skip spence]

For now I'll settle with applauding the op. Rated three silmarils indeed!

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Brilliant Alatar!

I seem to remember from the Hobbit that Rivendell was pretty well hidden - even Gandalf struggled a bit finding the way. We don't get a description of the last stage of the hobbits' journey in but they were with Glorfindel and Aragorn who obviously knew the way. The Dunedain would probably know since they were semi-based there but I doubt its exact location was widely known among non-Rivendell elves. Legolas probably knew through contact with Gandalf and Aragorn re Gollum's capture (if not from family connection with Celeborn who had lived there a while).

Boromir found it either because he was "meant to" or because in such times the elves were not complacent enough to rely on geography and enchantment and set a watch and found him. We know that other elves than Glorfindel were sent out to look for Frodo - maybe one of those found Boromir in the vicinity.

As a side question in this thread, what in the world made people so ignorant of other lands in Middle Earth? The distances between, say, Rivendell and Gondor were not that great. And Lorien was even closer to Minas Tirith. I can't believe that, for hundreds of years, there was no commerce, let alone contact (wouldn't the men of Gondor have been smoking Old Toby?).

It's as if everyone "went Tokugawa" in the 3rd Age, but there really is no clear explanation as to why.

[Bêthberry]

I have to second Mithalwen. Brilliant ,alatar!

I think your question of whether you or any of us would have to pay points to the global economy of Middle-earth. Travel depends upon either abject poverty, which forces one to travel to seek economic means, or disposable income and time, which lures one to seek out play. It also depends upon a balance of ease and effort. Some will travel only if guides make it easy. Others will rough it in the bush for the challenge of it. Still more, travel depends upon curiosity.

Hobbits by and large didn't experience great poverty, at least in the Third Age and it appears they have enough satisfaction of their play desire in The Shire. Most hobbits also seem a tad too prone to couch tater hood. They also seem not to be terribly curious creatures. Definitely not cats.

Dwarves on the other hand do know poverty and it appears they did develop an extensive system of trade routes to alieviate their economic condition. Their play instinct is, I think, largely dormant (although of course Peter Jackson did attempt to elaborate upon this, much to the consternment of the Bookites--myself being one). This dormancy may in fact have much to do with the apparent dearth of female dwarves and consequentl lack of dwarven progeny. Children do a great deal to encourage adult modes of play. Thus, I don't think that dwarves would harken after Rivendell as they might not know what to do with all that playtime available. They might want to start teaching elves how to do serious metal work.

The men of Middle earth faced variable conditions. Those of Rohan had bad experience with Dunlenders and I think this caused them to consider closing off borders and limiting contact with other cultures, even though it appears their society was struggling with incursions of others who were seeking economic advantage. Bad kharma lessens one's curiosity I think. As for play, warrior cultures tended to elevate war to a high level of game, so perhaps for them their play instincts were largely subsumed by their war games.

Gondor of course was terribly self-centred and self-satisfied and as such really lacked the truly sophisticated urge to seek out new lands, whether class M or not. There seems to be little economic motivation for Gondorians to travel to Rivendell, although Far Harad probably offerred a range of goods and services not to be found in the Last Homely Home. Better weather likely as well.

What this says about our changes of a spa-like excursion to Rivendell I'm not sure. I do know that when I visited the money changers yesterday the only currency I was able to buy was pound sterling. Neither mithril nor gold nor simaril were available for exchange despite the fact that I am attempting a journey myself to The Shire or at least attempting to replicate a Middle earth experience of some sort.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

As a side question in this thread, what in the world made people so ignorant of other lands in Middle Earth? The distances between, say, Rivendell and Gondor were not that great. And Lorien was even closer to Minas Tirith. I can't believe that, for hundreds of years, there was no commerce, let alone contact (wouldn't the men of Gondor have been smoking Old Toby?).

Think in terms of Dark Ages Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. Markets became more and more localized as the globalized economy of the Empire shrank. The great arteries of Roman roads fell into disuse. In England during most of the early Middle Ages, the populous never left their villages throughout their entire lives, and only a few made the dangerous trek through the primeval forests to reach the next village in a clearing further through the woods.

This, I think, is what Tolkien was getting at in the Shire, where folks that lived only 10 or 20 miles away were thought of as queer -- some even wore boots! "Strange as news from Bree" not only regards the information provided, but is a comment on the insular aspect of the society.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Think in terms of Dark Ages Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. Markets became more and more localized as the globalized economy of the Empire shrank. The great arteries of Roman roads fell into disuse. In England during most of the early Middle Ages, the populous never left their villages throughout their entire lives, and only a few made the dangerous trek through the primeval forests to reach the next village in a clearing further through the woods.

This, I think, is what Tolkien was getting at in the Shire, where folks that lived only 10 or 20 miles away were thought of as queer -- some even wore boots! "Strange as news from Bree" not only regards the information provided, but is a comment on the insular aspect of the society.

Yeah, and even at the height of Roman power, the lands beyond the borders of the Empire were often unknown and mythical even it the distance to them wasn't that great. Scandinavia for example was largely unrecorded by Roman Historians, who speculated based on scant knowledge that a wondrous Ultima Thule lay north of all known civilization.

But to return to the original question: What would have happened if a small group of travellers, with intent unknown, were to find the way to Elrond's abode? That is an intriguing question to speculate on. Would they be met welcomed, wined and dined, or would they be met with hostility?

Also, what did Rivendell look like? I suppose it was a well-manned stronghold, capable of withstanding an assault from a strong army, because it it wasn't, Sauron would no doubt have over-thrown it long ago. Sauron would have known more or less were Rivendell lay, wouldn't he? Since it's located in a deep valley, it seems like a siege should be fairly easy to stage, no?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Also, what did Rivendell look like? I suppose it was a well-manned stronghold, capable of withstanding an assault from a strong army, because it it wasn't, Sauron would no doubt have over-thrown it long ago. Sauron would have known more or less were Rivendell lay, wouldn't he? Since it's located in a deep valley, it seems like a siege should be fairly easy to stage, no?

I guess that's just the point. Gandalf himself in the Hobbit, and he must have been there many, many times, wasn't sure about the location of the valley itself and had to look around all the time - as Mith has already mentioned. I believe Mnemo's idea of "lesser Girdle of Melian" is also quite plausible and fits my mental image of the kind of defence surrounding Rivendell.

Let us not also forget that by the time of establishing, Rivendell was actually surrounded by Sauron's forces, but not defeated. Back then, though, I believe there were far more soldiers there than in the late Third Age. However, it's interesting to note that Rivendell was actually established as a temporary (or so it probably seemed back then) camp of defense against Sauron. (Elrond as a commander of a part of army was basically besieged there, being driven into wilderness, and he probably saw this nice hidden valley which was easy to protect, and so he did. Something along the lines of Helm's Deep.)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I believe Mnemo's idea of "lesser Girdle of Melian" is also quite plausible and fits my mental image of the kind of defence surrounding Rivendell.

Well, the vale was indeed protected by a Ring of Power, so certainly a 'girdle' meant to confuse and hinder enemies makes sense. Galadriel as well protected Lothlorien in the same manner, confounding Sauron's attempts to discover the movements and thoughts of the Wise.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Well, the vale was indeed protected by a Ring of Power, so certainly a 'girdle' meant to confuse and hinder enemies makes sense. Galadriel as well protected Lothlorien in the same manner, confounding Sauron's attempts to discover the movements and thoughts of the Wise.

It's fairly clear to me Vilya was the primary protection of Rivendell. I wonder though, just how its influence (and Nenya's also) kept out unwelcome intruders.
Was it something along the lines of only those dwelling there with the wielder of the Ring being able to penetrate the barrier (and bring outsiders with them) under ordinary circumstances, and 'exceptions', such as Bilbo, Boromir, Legolas, Glóin and Gimli having to have special conscious permission of the Ring's master to enter?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Think in terms of Dark Ages Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. Markets became more and more localized as the globalized economy of the Empire shrank. The great arteries of Roman roads fell into disuse. In England during most of the early Middle Ages, the populous never left their villages throughout their entire lives, and only a few made the dangerous trek through the primeval forests to reach the next village in a clearing further through the woods.

This, I think, is what Tolkien was getting at in the Shire, where folks that lived only 10 or 20 miles away were thought of as queer -- some even wore boots! "Strange as news from Bree" not only regards the information provided, but is a comment on the insular aspect of the society.

All true, however I never got the impression of Dark Ages when I was reading LotR. Gondor was in decline but still had great nobles, and had ships, didn't it?

I guess I pictured men like Prince Imrahil as the kind who would strike out and do things, like sail up the coast to the Havens (and down the coast to burn a few ships in dock in Umbar), rather than sit around indolently on Dol Amroth.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

It's as if everyone "went Tokugawa" in the 3rd Age, but there really is no clear explanation as to why.

Speaking of Japanese things, I'm wondering if another factor might explain the lack of travel. I'm thinking of some system a la the one set up by the Tokogawa shogunate's immediate predecessors, the Toyotomi (specifically Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the first shogun of the line) wherin people werent allowed to leave thier han (fiefdom) without specific permisson from thier local lord. if such a system was in place in parts of ME it would go a long way to explaining a lack of traveling (it is after all hard to engage in casual traveling if it's in fact illegal). I'm not saying no one is allowed to travel (nomadic people like the rangers obviosly do) but those that do may be the exception, not the rule

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

if such a system was in place in parts of ME it would go a long way to explaining a lack of traveling (it is after all hard to engage in casual traveling if it's in fact illegal). I'm not saying no one is allowed to travel (nomadic people like the rangers obviosly do) but those that do may be the exception, not the rule

I don't think that was necessarily the case. Gildor and his group were seen aimlessly wandering about the Shire. Dwarves travelled the East-West Road on a regular basis, going to and from their own habitations.
There was obviously some intercourse between Gondor and Rohan.
I don't think travelling was frowned upon in itself. It's more that by the time of the War of the Ring, the various 'speaking peoples' were generally estranged from one another, and didn't know who of alien race they could trust.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

All true, however I never got the impression of Dark Ages when I was reading LotR. Gondor was in decline but still had great nobles, and had ships, didn't it?

I guess I pictured men like Prince Imrahil as the kind who would strike out and do things, like sail up the coast to the Havens (and down the coast to burn a few ships in dock in Umbar), rather than sit around indolently on Dol Amroth.

The Byzantine Empire, which was the Eastern half of the Roman Empire, was still a force to be reckoned with, but because of religious differences with the West, there was little concourse between Constantinople and Europe. But the Byzantines experienced a continous erosion of its power over the centuries as it became more and more decadent, finally falling to the Turks in 1453. But by then, Byzantium was a mere shadow of its former glory, with little but the city of Constantinople itself as part of its dwindled empire. This is much like Gondor, with its once vast landholdings dwindled away to Minas Tirith and the vassal holdings westward, like Dol Amroth. Rohan was never really a vassal state, but an ally given land Gondor could no longer control, Osgiliath was destroyed, and all of Ithilien and Near Harad were under enemy control.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Byzantine Empire, which was the Eastern half of the Roman Empire, was still a force to be reckoned with, but because of religious differences with the West, there was little concourse between Constantinople and Europe. But the Byzantines experienced a continous erosion of its power over the centuries as it became more and more decadent, finally falling to the Turks in 1453. But by then, Byzantium was a mere shadow of its former glory, with little but the city of Constantinople itself as part of its dwindled empire. This is much like Gondor, with its once vast landholdings dwindled away to Minas Tirith and the vassal holdings westward, like Dol Amroth. Rohan was never really a vassal state, but an ally given land Gondor could no longer control, Osgiliath was destroyed, and all of Ithilien and Near Harad were under enemy control.

A very good analogy which I had failed to consider. I should have thought of that instead of being fixed on the insularity of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Speaking of Japanese things, I'm wondering if another factor might explain the lack of travel. I'm thinking of some system a la the one set up by the Tokogawa shogunate's immediate predecessors, the Toyotomi (specifically Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the first shogun of the line) wherin people werent allowed to leave thier han (fiefdom) without specific permisson from thier local lord. if such a system was in place in parts of ME it would go a long way to explaining a lack of traveling (it is after all hard to engage in casual traveling if it's in fact illegal). I'm not saying no one is allowed to travel (nomadic people like the rangers obviosly do) but those that do may be the exception, not the rule

I never got the impression that there were any internal passports in effect anywhere in ME, except maybe for Mordor or the later years in Numenor. That's the stuff of sordid, modern dictatorships and the Russian Oprichniki.

The Japanese did have another interesting custom called sankin-kotai which was used to control noble families and prevent rebellion.

From wikipedia:

The details changed throughout the twenty-six decades of Tokugawa rule, but generally, the requirement was that the daimyo of every han move periodically between Edo and his han, typically spending alternate years in each place. His wife and heir were required to remain in Edo as hostages. The expenditures necessary to maintain lavish residences in both places, and for the procession to and from Edo, placed financial strains on the daimyo making them unable to wage war. The frequent travel of the daimyos encouraged road building and the construction of inns and facilities along the routes, generating economic activity.

[Bêthberry]

I miss Marileangorifurnimaluim. And a certain thread by Mister Underhill about Rings and things.

Oh, I just thought of something the flyer could include: casinos. Surely Elrond took a gamble on Frodo, and maybe others at Rivendell might also be given to playing the odds.

That is all.

[Mithalwen]

As someone who can only maintain a poker face online (but never for real money just in case you are worried!) I can only imagine it must be a nightmare having to cope with osanwe kenta as well. Elrond was forsighted as well. Aiee.

And know I may have to "Cast LOTR with poker players". Galadriel would obviously be Victoria Coren but I suspect Boromir 88 will kill me if I suggest that the Devilfish would be Sauron... dark lord and jeweller though he be .

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It's fairly clear to me Vilya was the primary protection of Rivendell. I wonder though, just how its influence (and Nenya's also) kept out unwelcome intruders.

I think Vilya had an influence (and was the reason the stars were clearest there) but I still think Geography was the primary protection since Elrond founded Rivendell long before he had the Ring of Power. Also Rivendell was designed as a refuge in the way the Lorien was not.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think Vilya had an influence (and was the reason the stars were clearest there) but I still think Geography was the primary protection since Elrond founded Rivendell long before he had the Ring of Power. Also Rivendell was designed as a refuge in the way the Lorien was not.

Well, the area's geography was what convinced Elrond to choose that valley as the location for his refuge, but that alone wouldn't have been a total defence. It was Vilya that seems to have provided the power ultimately to keep out enemies.
For example, Saruman almost certainly would have been to Rivendell, and could have told someone how to find it. If not the power of Vilya, what was to stop a spy from being on the ground in the area watching the Company leave?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

what was to stop a spy from being on the ground in the area watching the Company leave?

An Elf? Maybe even eagles or other birds friendly to Elrond. I assume the valley was closely guarded. Obviously the surrounding area was scouted carefully ahead of the company's departure too.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, the area's geography was what convinced Elrond to choose that valley as the location for his refuge, but that alone wouldn't have been a total defence. It was Vilya that seems to have provided the power ultimately to keep out enemies.
For example, Saruman almost certainly would have been to Rivendell, and could have told someone how to find it. If not the power of Vilya

I'm not completely convinced that the Elven Rings' had the power to defend Rivendell and Lothlórien, similar to how Melian Girdled the Hidden Kingdom. Is there anything written that suggests this is the case? As I understand it, the power of the rings were mainly in preserving, as they could put the abode of the wielder in a stasis, shielded from the corrosive influence of time, and the ageing of the world. If they could be used to keep unwanted visitors out, it is something I never read (or forgot that I read).

For one thing, Orcs were able to enter into Lothlórien unhindered, crossing the stream of Nimrodel, though they never returned. Several attacks were repealed during the war of the ring, and one thinks that that fighting wouldn't be necessary if the ring offered full protection. Caras Caladhon, the city of the Galadhrim, was also a fortified stronghold with high walls and surrounding moats, which indicates that more conventional fighting could be expected.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I'm not completely convinced that the Elven Rings' had the power to defend Rivendell and Lothlórien, similar to how Melian Girdled the Hidden Kingdom. Is there anything written that suggests this is the case? As I understand it, the power of the rings were mainly in preserving, as they could put the abode of the wielder in a stasis, shielded from the corrosive influence of time, and the ageing of the world. If they could be used to keep unwanted visitors out, it is something I never read (or forgot that I read).

For one thing, Orcs were able to enter into Lothlórien unhindered, crossing the stream of Nimrodel, though they never returned. Several attacks were repealed during the war of the ring, and one thinks that that fighting wouldn't be necessary if the ring offered full protection. Caras Caladhon, the city of the Galadhrim, was also a fortified stronghold with high walls and surrounding moats, which indicates that more conventional fighting could be expected.

Rivendell: the somewhat unexpected flood which destroyed the Black Riders might be one example of where the Ring's power, as I believe, was used. Though who knows - the text sounds almost as if the spell was there permanently, more like a "trap" ready to set off, and now the question is only whether it was made by the Ring's power or by some other power. (Personally I have always thought it was the Ring, but I have heard also other opinions.)

Originally Posted by FotR, Many Meetings

"Who made the flood?" asked Frodo.
"Elrond commanded it," answered Gandalf. "The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released."

And as for Lothlórien, Galadriel, after she revealed her Ring to Frodo, said:

Originally Posted by FotR, Mirror of Galadriel

But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlórien maintained and defended against its Enemy.

So as if you had just asked for it yourself, skip For that matter, there were unusual things at work around Lórien anyway, reported elsewhere, like the strange mist that came out of Lórien when Eorl and his riders were coming south, and it protected them from being spotted by Dol Guldur (see Unfinished Tales).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

An Elf? Maybe even eagles or other birds friendly to Elrond. I assume the valley was closely guarded. Obviously the surrounding area was scouted carefully ahead of the company's departure too.

Elves make good guards, and Eagles make good scouts, but I find it hard to believe either would be capable of completely safeguarding the Last Homely House. I'm not saying Vilya was the only protection Rivendell had, but I think it was what gave Elrond the ability to bring the flood at least.

'The river of this valley is under [Elrond's] power, and will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford.'

FOTR Many Meetings

How would Elrond possess such power alone? Though great among the Eldar remaining in ME at that time, and surely one of the wisest of them, he had never lived in the Blessed Realm, and lacked the 'Old World' strength of people like Finrod Felagund or Círdan. It could be argued that his Maia blood might have been a factor, but then, I wonder why we don't see evidence of any 'supernatural' powers from him before he took possession of the Ring. Sauron would have wiped him out in the Second Age if not for the Dwarves of Moria.

[skip spence]

Yeah, maybe it's time for me to re-read FotR, eh Legate?

Considering what you've said I agree that the two rings had something to do with defending the respective realms. If have time I might return with some additional thoughts on the subject.

[alatar]

Thank you all for your wonderful posts! I hadn't expected/predicted that this is where the thread would have gone. That said...

- I'm currently researching Rivendell more to put some weight to the inference that visitors stopped by.

- How long could an unrelated Elf stay, and if so would he/she have to 'kick in' some help?

- When the hobbits reach Bree, Sam suggests that instead of the Prancing Pony that they find lodging amongst some local hobbit families. How would this arrangement work (though the accommodations be somewhat less than those found at the Last Homely House) ?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

When the hobbits reach Bree, Sam suggests that instead of the Prancing Pony that they find lodging amongst some local hobbit families. How would this arrangement work (though the accommodations be somewhat less than those found at the Last Homely House) ?

Sounds like an opportunity to open a hobbit bed and breakfast -- though with hobbits, there would probably have to be more meals than just breakfast thrown into the deal.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

excellent ad Alatar, can I book online?

perhaps Switzerland is the second-choice holiday destination (dunno if Elrond accepts Mastercard)

so, interesting pic of Rivendell by JRRT and explanation of its possible inspiration here-

Rivendell Switzerland

and some quotes from that site-

"not only the similarity between Tolkien's painting of Rivendell and the Lauterbrunnen, Valley, but also:
a) that Tolkien had visited Lauterbrunnen in 1911
b) that he had come down into the valley by an unusual route that extactly mirrors the rather perverse route his charaters insist on taking into Rivendell
c) That Lauterbrunnen essentially means the same as Greyflood & Hoarwell
d) That Tolkien mirrored the sound of the name Lauterbrunnen itself in the English and Elivsh names for the Rivendell river: ie Loudwater & Bruinen.

Notice the 'perverse route' into Rivendell, that was, in The Hobbit, only possible to follow by looking for small white marker stones that were often overgrown.

It seems strange that Elrond held out against Sauron's Second Age army in what is essentially a large unfortified country house in a valley. However I think there must have been some peculiarities of geography going on here, for example the cliffs dominating Rivendell being inaccessible from the 'outside' due to sheer drops or raging torrents or somesuch. Also the route into the Valley must have passed some 'choke points' where a company of good bowmen could effectively hold off an army indefinitely.

On hospitality, I think there are traditional rules in many cultures that a guest should be treated most generously, even should they be a rival or enemy. I'm sure this was heavily linked with social status, so a wandering knight might be feasted and given a seat at the lord's table, whereas a ruffianly vagabond would be given some scraps and allowed one night in the stables.

I think unrelated elves would be very welcome at Rivendell (and I'm pretty sure that Thranduil, for example, was regularly in touch with Elrond. Galadriel and Cirdan definitely were). I'd also think that the elves would have had sufficient social grace to limit their stays to a reasonable length, though I bet Elrond had a few Osanwe-ish tricks up his sleeve to give those who overstayed their welcome 'itchy feet'. In our history young noblemen often joined the household of an allied lord, partly fostering (perhaps partly as a hostage) moving on to join the Hearth-Troops of their host to gain military experience.

Meanwhile hobbits in Bree, I guess the ideal for Sam would have been to find a long-lost relative and be put-up by them. I guess otherwise some hobbits took in lodgers, or did a B&B (or as Ibrin says B&B&B&B) though with hobbit generosity it'd be like two grannies refusing to let each other pay for tea when the guest offered some payment.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by alatar

The Hobbits were special visitors, not only because of the burden Frodo carried but also because they had Gandalf as a friend and herald. Frodo too was considered an elf friend, and so surely that would help him at Rivendell.

Boromir was admitted as, assumedly, Elrond had some foresight that this human would be one of the Nine Walkers. The Dwarves too had a purpose that helped Elrond's cause, and having them in the Council brought more news to the fore. And even Bilbo's group of Dwarven companions stopped on their way, if I remembers rightly.

Aragorn lived there, and so of course had the run of the place. And I assume that all elves would be admitted and could stay as long as the Age lasted.

The Dwarves were invited ... as was Legolas. Frodo not only had Gandalf (and Aragorn) as a friend but also Bilbo.

Boromir (and Faramir) had a dream that directed him towards Imladris, so I suppose you could say he was fated to go there. Perhaps Elrond had some knowledge of Boromir's dream?

In any case Boromir would have been recognised by Gandalf, and possibly Aragorn. Besides, Elrond should have been happy to receive an important emissary from Minas Tirith - if only because it meant that he could start charging extra for the newly-christened "Boromir Suite"!

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by alatar

When the hobbits reach Bree, Sam suggests that instead of the Prancing Pony that they find lodging amongst some local hobbit families. How would this arrangement work (though the accommodations be somewhat less than those found at the Last Homely House) ?

I imagine it'd be something rather like a homestay. Sam is banking on the idea of hobbit hospitality that existed within the Shire--hobbits may be insular but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take a guest in, even if he is from all of twenty miles away!

However, I have to wonder whether that same courtesy actually existed within the Breelands, where iller sorts of people prowled and not everyone was to be trusted to behave himself in someone else's home. No doubt Sam is thinking that hobbits are hobbits and that's enough to be able to trust someone else--especially if that someone is relatively familiar in a new setting.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

No doubt Sam is thinking that hobbits are hobbits and that's enough to be able to trust someone else--especially if that someone is relatively familiar in a new setting.

The four of them probably could have found some lodging for a night or two at least. After all, the Shire hobbits were descended from the Breelanders, and that fact was commonly recognised.
Any chance of that would have been gone after Frodo's 'prank' with the Ring however. Even the Underhills from Staddle who had taken to Frodo had shunned him after that. News of that affair likely would have traveled fast.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Rumil

so, interesting pic of Rivendell by JRRT and explanation of its possible inspiration here-

Rivendell Switzerland

Thanks for the link, Rumil. Has anyone cashed in on said location and built a hotel?

On hospitality, I think there are traditional rules in many cultures that a guest should be treated most generously, even should they be a rival or enemy. I'm sure this was heavily linked with social status, so a wandering knight might be feasted and given a seat at the lord's table, whereas a ruffianly vagabond would be given some scraps and allowed one night in the stables.

Would have any hobbits, assuming that the Travelers skipped the entertainment as the Pony and found a hobbit family to put them up, asked for anything in return? Would Merry leave a penny, or would Frodo have to sing for his supper, or would some other service be asked or expected?

Just seems that if you lived near a road, you could be losing some vital sustenance every time some group tromped by on some foolish mission.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

Just seems that if you lived near a road, you could be losing some vital sustenance every time some group tromped by on some foolish mission.

Yes, but consider who the majority of the travelers in Eriador seem to have been in the Third Age: Dwarves and Rangers. I can't see either group seeking lodging in hobbit-holes.
Anyway, everyone knows what terrible guests Dwarves are. They eat all your seed-cakes and force you to run around madly trying to keep up with their appetites. And never a please or thank you!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Anyway, everyone knows what terrible guests Dwarves are. They eat all your seed-cakes and force you to run around madly trying to keep up with their appetites. And never a please or thank you!

To say nothing of the havoc they wreak with your glasses and plates!

[Findegil]

In 'The History of the Hobbit' it is revealed that the Hobbits had special inns for the use of forginers, like dwarves and probably Rangers. Also Bree has a famous inn. It seems that Erlond could have made many with the position of his house,if he wanted.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Nazgûl-king]

Nice flier! Perhaps with Rivendell we see a bit of the Greek idea of Xenia, in fact I notice a lot of places and people in Middle-earth show some of the idea. Xenia involves taking in a person, finding out about them, giving them food and drink, and entertaining them. There is also a gift exchange and the person who was the guest would show the person that was the host the same hospitality should that person come around where they live.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nazgûl-king

Nice flier! Perhaps with Rivendell we see a bit of the Greek idea of Xenia, in fact I notice a lot of places and people in Middle-earth show some of the idea. Xenia involves taking in a person, finding out about them, giving them food and drink, and entertaining them. There is also a gift exchange and the person who was the guest would show the person that was the host the same hospitality should that person come around where they live.

Thanks. On one particular business excursion across the pond, our clients took us out one night to a nice restaurant in or near Oxford, then gave us a very informative walking tour of the same. We even walked by the Eagle and Child, though I didn't get the chance to go inside.

I try to keep this in mind when we are visited, though shamefully I don't know (or seem to be able to remember) the same amount of detail about my home base.

Then again, we tear down any place more than a 100 years old to make way for Big Box Marts.