Dorwinion wine must have been good - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Mouth of Sauron · 09-25-2009, 05:17 PM

Looking at the map of Middle Earth, the distance between Thranduil's halls in Mirkwood and the vineyards of Dorwinion on the north-west shore of the Sea of Rhun was as the crow flies the same distance as that between Rivendell and Edoras. And the barrels of wine had to go backwards and forwards on an even longer route, via the River Running, Long Lake and the Forest River.

Was such a length of trade route really feasible ?

Nogrod · 09-25-2009, 05:29 PM

If you think an Australian wine can be drinkable in the US or Europe I'm not sure there is a problem...

What I mean is that a wine survives transport much better than fex. beer.

And if it was a sought after commodity there should have been the financial incentives to make it a lucrative trade even if the trip was long. Didn't they carry fex. spices from China and India to Europe from the times of the Greeks and Romans already (with the technologies and financial institutions of that time)?

Or had you something else in mind?

skip spence · 09-25-2009, 05:34 PM

Yes. Why would Thranduil get the barrels otherwise?

I've heard 2932 was an excellent vintage.

Inziladun · 09-25-2009, 05:35 PM

It really doesn't look very pratical. Using the Celduin to get the stuff to the Elvenking's halls would have meant going upstream.
That being the case, the elves probably didn't get it on a regular basis. It was for the king only, after all.

Nogrod · 09-25-2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It really doesn't look very pratical. Using the Celduin to get the stuff to the Elvenking's halls would have meant going upstream.

Most trade - ancient and present - includes getting the goods both downstream and upstream (think of the Nile, Eufrat, Mekong, Rhein, Donau, Volga, Mississippi) - not to talk of crossing oceans. The ancients already knew how to go upstream... It took more labour, but if the commodity was priced high enough that should have not been a problem (like they said in the USSR to philosopher Ludvig Wittgenstein acquiring a place for him there as a worker: "the one thing we're not in short supply here is unskilled labour...").

Inziladun · 09-25-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Most trade - ancient and present - includes getting the goods both downstream and upstream (think of the Nile, Eufrat, Mekong, Rhein, Donau, Volga, Mississippi) - not to talk of crossing oceans. The ancients already knew how to go upstream... It took more labour, but if the commodity was priced high enough that should have not been a problem (like they said in the USSR to philosopher Ludvig Wittgenstein acquiring a place for him there as a worker: "the one thing we're not in short supply here is unskilled labour...").

To be sure. Perhaps the labour involved (and resulting higher price) was the reason Thranduil didn't like to share.

Rumil · 09-25-2009, 06:15 PM

Dorwinion could be quite promising for wine-making, some projections put it more-or-less around where the Black Sea is in Europe.

The Bulgarians and Moldovans certainly produce a lot of vino.

Probably full-bodied reds towards the Sea-of-Rhun side, with German-style whites further up the Carnen.

I don't think the climate should be to hot for it to travel, though the madeiras, sherrys and ports were fortified originally to preserve wines on the long sea journeys up to Britain and Northern Europe. These are about 20% so I guess perfect for butler-befuddling!

Alfirin · 09-25-2009, 06:17 PM

Another possiblity is that Dorwinion wine might have been a fortified wine, like Maderia or Sack. A lot of fortified wines were long distance trade items, the extra alcohol tended to retard spoilage so they could stand long trips. the Higer alcohol content might have also increased thier attactiveness to the elves both for the potenially improved tase and the fact it got you intoxicated quicker. Somwhere in the canon ther is mention of cordials, so distillation must have been known by some in ME, the Dorwinians might have been one of them.

09-25-2009, 05:17 PM	#1
The Mouth of Sauron Wight Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Barad-Dur Posts: 196	Dorwinion wine must have been good Looking at the map of Middle Earth, the distance between Thranduil's halls in Mirkwood and the vineyards of Dorwinion on the north-west shore of the Sea of Rhun was as the crow flies the same distance as that between Rivendell and Edoras. And the barrels of wine had to go backwards and forwards on an even longer route, via the River Running, Long Lake and the Forest River. Was such a length of trade route really feasible ?

09-25-2009, 05:29 PM	#2
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	If you think an Australian wine can be drinkable in the US or Europe I'm not sure there is a problem... What I mean is that a wine survives transport much better than fex. beer. And if it was a sought after commodity there should have been the financial incentives to make it a lucrative trade even if the trip was long. Didn't they carry fex. spices from China and India to Europe from the times of the Greeks and Romans already (with the technologies and financial institutions of that time)? Or had you something else in mind? __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

09-25-2009, 05:34 PM	#3
skip spence shadow of a doubt Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the streets Posts: 1,125	Yes. Why would Thranduil get the barrels otherwise? I've heard 2932 was an excellent vintage. __________________ "You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan

09-25-2009, 05:35 PM	#4
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	It really doesn't look very pratical. Using the Celduin to get the stuff to the Elvenking's halls would have meant going upstream. That being the case, the elves probably didn't get it on a regular basis. It was for the king only, after all. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

09-25-2009, 06:15 PM	#7
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	We want the finest wines available to elvenkind. Dorwinion could be quite promising for wine-making, some projections put it more-or-less around where the Black Sea is in Europe. The Bulgarians and Moldovans certainly produce a lot of vino. Probably full-bodied reds towards the Sea-of-Rhun side, with German-style whites further up the Carnen. I don't think the climate should be to hot for it to travel, though the madeiras, sherrys and ports were fortified originally to preserve wines on the long sea journeys up to Britain and Northern Europe. These are about 20% so I guess perfect for butler-befuddling! __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

09-25-2009, 06:17 PM	#8
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	Another possiblity is that Dorwinion wine might have been a fortified wine, like Maderia or Sack. A lot of fortified wines were long distance trade items, the extra alcohol tended to retard spoilage so they could stand long trips. the Higer alcohol content might have also increased thier attactiveness to the elves both for the potenially improved tase and the fact it got you intoxicated quicker. Somwhere in the canon ther is mention of cordials, so distillation must have been known by some in ME, the Dorwinians might have been one of them.