Galadriel's power

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

So I was wondering just how powerful Galadriel is against Sauron's forces and Sauron himself without his Ring. We all have some knowledge as to what she can do and of her supposed stature among the Eldar. But political power aside, how would the potency of her spirit measure up against the maiar in general? Wasn't it said that Glorfindel came close to the might of the maiar when he was reincarnated (I can't find the quote but it's there)? And yet even as he came back to ME in the 3rd age, Galadriel remained as the fairest and mightiest of the elves:

"A queen she was of the woodland elves, wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth." -- The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"

So we can't really say that Galadriel, in the 3rd age, was a big fish in a small pond considering her standing against powerful elves like Glorfindel (reincarnated and enhanced), Elrond (weilder of Vilya, and descendant of Melian the maia), and Cirdan (great gift of foresight and eldest of the elves).
In addition, taking her history in Valinor into account, she grew while the Two Trees lived. Their lights had a profound effect on those elves exposed to them. Then there's her supposed equal--albeit different--stature with Feanor, if you consider the unfinished tales as canon. She was also a friend and pupil of Melian, a maia of great power. But unlike Melian, she took the reigns in ruling.
During the mirror scene, she reveals to Frodo that she knew Sauron's mind. I've never heard of the other bearers say so. Sauron gropes ever to see into her thoughts. And in the Unfinished Tales, it is said that when Sauron came to Eregion, he immedietly perceived that Galadriel would be his chief adversary.
Galadriel tells Frodo that she and Celeborn have fought the long defeat. And in the scene where Frodo asked what she'd wish, she says:

"Yet I could wish, were it of any avail, that the One Ring had never been wrought, or had remained for ever lost." -- FotR, The Mirror of Galadriel

This gives me the impression that she'd be able to maintain Lothlorien against Sauron so long his Ring remained lost. In addition, she alone knew how many times Frodo had slipped the One on (Thrice). I don't think Gandalf or Elrond ever knew since it was never stated nor implied. Lastly, she's a remote vision that Frodo and Sam hearken back to time and time again, especially in moments of despair and hoplessness... an inspiration Gandalf and Elrond didn't evoke (seemingly). So what do y'all think? Was she worthy of the ultimate echelon of Eldarin might (along with Feanor and Luthien)? Was she close to a maia in terms of spiritual potency (remember the Istari were powered down versions of themselves)?

[Inziladun]

Though Galadriel was probaby the most powerful of the Eldar remaining in Middle-earth in the Third Age, I can't put her on an equal footing with Sauron, even bereft of his Ring.

'What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Círdan at the Havens, or in Lórien. But have they the strength, have we here the strength to to withstand the Enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last, when all else is overthrown?'
'I have not the strength,' said Elrond; 'neither have they.'

Thus spoke Elrond at the Council. That seems pretty definitive to me, but I think Galadriel herself gave a clue as to how she would fare against Sauron.

'Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy.'

By 'if you fail', she doesn't specify 'if Sauron regains the Ring', only that if the Ring is not destroyed then he will be victorious. I take from that, and Elrond's words, that Galadriel could not resist Sauron indefinitely regardless of whether he held the One.
She could easily have known how many times Frodo had used the Ring; he had given a full account of events at the Council of Elrond, and she had obviously been informed of what was said there.

Her perception of Sauron's mind concerning the Elves, but not the reverse, I see as possibly a statement on the relationship between Good and Evil; that the Good can understand Evil more easily than Evil can understand Good.

'Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any should refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this we shall put him out of reckoning'.

FOTR The Council of Elrond

A curious blindness that Evil has, exploitable by the Good.

Her statement that she wished the Ring had not been wrought or had remained lost could simply mean that she somewhat regretted having made Lothlórien the earthly paradise that it was; for she had come to love it, and knew that Sauron being aware the Ring had been found had fully awakened him, and Lórien was near to its doom no matter the result of Frodo's errand.

[The Might]

OK...

Case 1 - Galadriel no Ring, Sauron no Ring - it's pretty obvious from Inziladun's quotes that Lórien would have been lost in this scenario since even without the Ring Sauron could simply eventually overrun Lórien with all his forces.
I believe this also reflected in the words of Glorfindel:

`But in any case,' said Glorfindel, `to send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.' ~ LotR, The Council of Elrond

So, eventually, Lórien would too fall as said above.


Case 2 - Galadriel has the Ring, Sauron doesn't

Now let's suppose that Galadriel kept the Ring and decided to use in battle against Sauron here's what would probably have happened:

In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. ~ Letter #246 to Mrs. Eileen Elgar

I find this a very interesting quote, since it tells us very much about the chances of the three Guardians against Sauron. The problem is that Tolkien does not give a clear answer in any of these scenarios.
He merely explains how Elrond or Galadriel would have operated, and that they could not have faces him self to self, but does not say directly whether they would have been successful. It does however appears that they would have failed, due to the passage where it is said that it was part of the deceit of the Ring to show such dreams of great power. Still, I think that Galadriel or Elrond may have had a chance.

What also is interesting here is that although Galadriel seems to be more powerful than Elrond, he too is named as a potential adversary to Sauron, so perhaps the difference isn't that big as it may appear at first.

Ok, enough for now...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Might

What also is interesting here is that although Galadriel seems to be more powerful than Elrond, he too is named as a potential adversary to Sauron, so perhaps the difference isn't that big as it may appear at first.

The obvious difference between the two appears to be that Elrond didn't have the advantage of having lived in the Blessed Realm like Galadriel. I would think the reason Elrond still might match up was his Maia blood.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

So we can't really say that Galadriel, in the 3rd age, was a big fish in a small pond considering her standing against powerful elves like Glorfindel (reincarnated and enhanced), Elrond (weilder of Vilya, and descendant of Melian the maia), and Cirdan (great gift of foresight and eldest of the elves).

It's interesting how they all seem to be connected to Ainur in some way. Galadriel has been to Valinor, as has Glorfindel I believe, Cirdan speaks to Ulmo and Elrond is part-Maia. Maybe that's one of the things what gives them all such power, in the same way that being in the Light of the Two Trees does.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

It's interesting how they all seem to be connected to Ainur in some way. Galadriel has been to Valinor, as has Glorfindel I believe, Cirdan speaks to Ulmo and Elrond is part-Maia. Maybe that's one of the things what gives them all such power, in the same way that being in the Light of the Two Trees does.

Galadriel was also apparently a fairly close friend of Melian at one time.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

So I was wondering just how powerful Galadriel is against Sauron's forces and Sauron himself without his Ring.

I don't think that the sing-off between a pre-ring Sauron and Galadriel's older (and not lesser) brother Finrod Felagund has been mentioned. With the outcome of that in mind I believe that had Sauron come to Lórien in person, Galadriel would lack the strength to withstand him, with or without his ring. Then again, at Tol-in-Gaurhoth Sauron was still not humbled by having had his physical shape destroyed and could be assumed to have been stronger than his recently re-assembled 3rd age self. Yet I would think he was a notch above Galadriel in the ME power hierarchy. Now as for Sauron and his forces , that is an entirely different question, isn't it? Which forces are we talking about now?

[Boromir88]

Skip:

Then again, at Tol-in-Gaurhoth Sauron was still not humbled by having had his physical shape destroyed and could be assumed to have been stronger than his recently re-assembled 3rd age self.

Yep, each re-building that Sauron had to go ended up weakening him. So, technically if you were able to kill Sauron's physical form enough times there would be a point when he simply wouldn't be able to rebuild:

After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Numenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination).'~Letter 200

Now as for Sauron and his forces , that is an entirely different question, isn't it? Which forces are we talking about now?

And there is the problem with simply trying to kill Sauron enough times...he's up in Barad-dur and Denethor rightly believes he's not going to be leaving any time soon. Sauron's got enough soldiers at his disposal to rule Middle-earth for him.

With Galadriel, it depends upon which one we are talking about. In UT: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Christopher says that his father expanded both Galadriel and Celeborn's power, and roles in his later writings. So, I would argue that the UT version of Galadriel is more powerful than LOTR-Galadriel...maybe that changes things, maybe it don't

[Mithalwen]

I am sure it says somewhere that Galadriel had the power to hold out against anything but Sauron in person.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Skip:

Yep, each re-building that Sauron had to go ended up weakening him. So, technically if you were able to kill Sauron's physical form enough times there would be a point when he simply wouldn't be able to rebuild:



And there is the problem with simply trying to kill Sauron enough times...he's up in Barad-dur and Denethor rightly believes he's not going to be leaving any time soon. Sauron's got enough soldiers at his disposal to rule Middle-earth for him.

With Galadriel, it depends upon which one we are talking about. In UT: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Christopher says that his father expanded both Galadriel and Celeborn's power, and roles in his later writings. So, I would argue that the UT version of Galadriel is more powerful than LOTR-Galadriel...maybe that changes things, maybe it don't

Could Sauron's slow reanimation of a new body also due to the loss of Ring? I believe he would have regenerated just as quickly if he had the Ring in his posession (no matter how many times his body gets killed). It may be that the Ainur can deplete their innate powers by doing such things, but Sauron found his loophole: One Ring. As long as he has it, the Ring would give him sort of like infinite magic points to spend (thus avoiding being utterly weakened like Morgoth). As for Galadriel, I'm referring to her version in UT. She is mightier there. In LOTR, Tolkien would always mention Elrond's name before Galadriel as if to depict that he is mightier than her, which isn't what I gathered from reading the trilogy.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I am sure it says somewhere that Galadriel had the power to hold out against anything but Sauron in person.

Yea, it's in ROTK, Appendix B:

"Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself."

So by the quote above, we can assume that even if Mordor's evil creatures are emptied from its lands and focused and poured over Lorien instead of Minas Tirith (avoiding Battle of Pelenor), joined by Dol Guldur's seven-fold strength (avoiding attack on Thranduil's realm), Lorien would remain victorious unless Sauron was physically there, right? Then can we assume also that Smaug would not be able to conquer Lorien, him being lesser than Sauron (And Galadriel being able to repel anyone lesser than him)? For though it is expected that the Elves diminish and dwindle, due to Mandos' curse (don't know if he lifted this after Morgoth's final overthrow), the Three rings were able to ward off that weariness, bringing only healing and rejuvenation. So methinks Galadriel (along with Elrond) and her subjects were sheilded from this curse of mandos so long as the Three lasted. So I don't think Galadriel (or her spiritual potency) became lesser than those who remained in Valinor.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Could Sauron's slow reanimation of a new body also due to the loss of Ring? I believe he would have regenerated just as quickly if he had the Ring in his posession (no matter how many times his body gets killed). It may be that the Ainur can deplete their innate powers by doing such things, but Sauron found his loophole: One Ring. As long as he has it, the Ring would give him sort of like infinite magic points to spend (thus avoiding being utterly weakened like Morgoth).

I think you may have something there. According to The Tale of Years the Downfall of Númenor, apparently the first example of Sauron's loss of body, occurred in S.A 3319. By 3429 Sauron was already launching attacks against Gondor, indicating to me a return to full strength.
As a contrast, after his defeat by the Last Alliance and loss of the Ring, it took over a thousand years for him to begin to grow to even a minor threat to the West again, with his occupation of Dol Guldur as the Necromancer, and over 1900 years before he declared himself in Mordor.
It appears from at least circumstantial evidence that the Ring may indeed have been a factor in his rebodiment.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think you may have something there. According to The Tale of Years the Downfall of Númenor, apparently the first example of Sauron's loss of body, occurred in S.A 3319. By 3429 Sauron was already launching attacks against Gondor, indicating to me a return to full strength.
As a contrast, after his defeat by the Last Alliance and loss of the Ring, it took over a thousand years for him to begin to grow to even a minor threat to the West again, with his occupation of Dol Guldur as the Necromancer, and over 1900 years before he declared himself in Mordor.
It appears from at least circumstantial evidence that the Ring may indeed have been a factor in his rebodiment.

And in the Third Age, Gandalf said that Sauron has recovered much of his former might (perhaps his might comparable before he forged the One [it took 2 1/2 thousand years before he declared himself after all]) and may not need the Ring to conquer all of ME. He says something about Sauron becoming too strong even without the Ring. So his Ring, as along as it exist (while not in his posession), allows him to anchor on Arda as well as recharge to his former level of might. So then if he did retrieve his Ring with much of his native strength returned, then with the ring... he is twice as powerful (personally) compared to how he had been before its making (not to mention having control over other rings of power)! So hypothetically, if Morgoth had a One Ring, he'd be unconquerable. He'd not deplete himself no matter how severe he spends his spirit on his servants. He'd still be around, undefeated by the Valar. In this way, he was outsmarted by Sauron.

[ElanorFB]

There are cases of elves taking on Balrogs in the Silmarillion. Galadriel is certainly one of the top 3 most powerful elves in Middle Earth. I think against Sauron without his ring she could hold her own for a very long time. Perhaps Sauron with the 9 and the dwarven rings and legions upon legions could wear down Lorien, but he would lose a great part of his armies.