Will of the Nazgul/Creating More Nazgul

[JeffF.]

It is stated several times in the LotR that the Nazgul had no will but Sauron's and/or they were enslaved to his will. Given the description of the Nazgul in Unfinished Tales, The Hunt For The Ring, it seems that this statement is not entirely accurate. After the unsuccessful hunt in the Vales of Anduin Sauron sends messengers whose words "fill even the Morgul Lord with dismay." In RotK Frodo and Sam see a Nazgul overhead which the narrative states is sending word to Sauron of the Lord of the Nazgul's demise.

The description that they had no will but Sauron's implies that everything they did even to the smallest detail, was Sauron's decision (which he would have to do if they truly had "no will" but his).

In the Hunt for the Ring and in the Siege of Minas Tirith/Battle of Pelennor Fields the Lord of the Nazgul makes many decisions as he deploys and redeploys his fellow Nazgul and/or armies.

A more accurate description would be that the Nazgul could not act counter to his will. They could not put on the One Ring if they found it if Sauron forbade them to do it and would return it but they could decide how they would return it if for example their steeds were killed. When acting as Captains on a field of battle, they would make the decisions like deploying Siege Towers against the Minas Tirith walls to tie down defenders, catapulting heads of the slain Gondor soldiers to demoralize the defenders and brining Grond to bear against the city's gates.


I've also wondered why Sauron did not 'make' more Nazgul since they were his greatest servants. The fact that he did not implies that Celembrimbor used some craft, art or skill that was beyond the ability of Sauron. Evidently Sauron could not simply re-give the Nine Rings for Men to a new set of Sorcerers, Kings and Warriors that he intended to enslave once the original holders were enslaved to his will. This implies that the Nine could only enslave one person at a time. It would seem that it would be to his great benefit for Sauron to create more Nazgul even if the cost was enslaving the original set to the new set or vice versa.

The Rings of Power seem also to have been made SPECFICALLY for either Men or Dwarves (or the Three for Elves). Sauron had recovered three of the Seven Rings for Dwarves. Finding they did not enslave Dwarves the way the Nine did Men he evidently did not have the option of simply giving these three Dwarf intended rings to Men to enslave them and create three more Nazgul .

[Hakon]

The other thing is getting stabbed by a morgul blade is supposed to turn you into a wraith like the Nazgul. That would have been a very easy way to create more Nazgul.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by JeffF. :

The Rings of Power seem also to have been made SPECFICALLY for either Men or Dwarves (or the Three for Elves). Sauron had recovered three of the Seven Rings for Dwarves. Finding they did not enslave Dwarves the way the Nine did Men he evidently did not have the option of simply giving these three Dwarf intended rings to Men to enslave them and create three more Nazgul .

This is by no means certain. While Celebrimbor certainly seems to have known and respected both Numenor and Moria, it would seem very out of character for him to spend (i.e. waste) any time or energy or effort making Rings of Power for them, unasked for, unpaid for, unwanted. I believe all nineteen of the Great Rings were intended for the elves. Whatever 'grand scheme' Celebrimbor may have been contemplating, if any, by creating them, we will never exactly know. I just don't think he would have bothered to create them specifically for either men or dwarves.

Furthermore, there's no way to know that the three Dwarf-rings are, in fact, idle. I have long held a theory (which cannot be substantiated, I admit) that the Mouth of Sauron bears one of these Rings, and is well on his way to becoming a tenth Nazgul. He's just not there yet. He's a black Numenorean, like the Witch-King; he's a magician and sorceror, like the Witch-King. How many lives of men does it take to forget one's own name? Yet he has. How many more to forget one's own SELF as the Nazgul have? Yet he speaks Sauron's mind and thoughts, not his own.

As I said, I can find no text to substantiate this as a theory, except the comparisons I have mentioned. I find nothing to contradict it either. Mostly though, I find it difficult to accept that Sauron would leave three Rings of Power unused, locked up in a box in Barad-dur when he is on the verge of fighting the war to (almost) end all wars.

[Hakon]

You are not the only one with that theory about the Mouth of Sauron. It is also on Tolkien Gateway. Mouth of Sauron

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Hakon:

You are not the only one with that theory about the Mouth of Sauron. It is also on Tolkien Gateway.

Good to know I'm not alone. It also mentions he may have been the messenger sent to Dale and the Lonely Mountain. He reminded me of that as well, though it's equally difficult to prove.

[Mithadan]

I do not think any of the Rings were intended for Men or Dwarves. LoTR is a bit ambiguous on this issue. In The Shadow of the Past Gandalf tells Frodo as follows:

The Three, fairest of all, the Elf-lords hid from him, and his hand never touched them or sullied them. Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed. Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them.

In The Council of Elrond it is stated only that the Three were hid by Celebrimbor. So from LoTR it is clear that Sauron gave at least the Nine to Men, but how the Dwarves got the Seven is not clear.

In Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, it is explicitly stated that when Sauron first put on the One Ring the Elves were aware of him and took off their Rings. Sauron then demanded that all the Rings be turned over to him. When Celebrimbor refused, war ensued and the Three were borne away and hidden.

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in all others the readiest to his will And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making.

So the Three, the Seven and the Nine were made and held by the Elves (made with Sauron's aid as to the Seven and the Nine) for their own use and the Dwarves and Men were given them by Sauron to give them "secret power beyond the measure of their kind."

The Three were made to preserve and heal and enhanced the power of their bearers to do so. The precise purposes of the Seven and the Nine are not known, but presumably, to some extent, they enhanced the natural abilities, power and desires of those who bore them. Thus the Dwarves who bore them became even more wealthy and skilled, for example, but being perverted by Sauron they also enhanced the Dwarves' natural tendency to be greedy as well.

Could the Three Dwarven Rings that Sauron recovered have been used to make more Ring Wraiths? Pure speculation, but perhaps. We don't know when Sauron recovered any other than Thrain's Ring (T.A. 2845) but that is said to be the last of the Dwarven rings he recovered. Sauron entered Dol Guldur around T.A. 1100. It seems as if he would have plenty of time to create new wraiths, assuming he could do so. Maybe the "secret powers" of the Dwarven rings were simply not suited for this purpose. Or maybe Sauron kept them to gather their power to himself.

[JeffF.]

I'm away from my books at the moment but I recall reading that only the ring given to Durin's Folk was directly between Celebrimbor and the King of Durin's Folk and that Sauron's hand never touched it. That implies that the other six were given directly by Sauron to the other Dwarf houses sometime after he'd taken them.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

I'm away from my books at the moment but I recall reading that only the ring given to Durin's Folk was directly between Celebrimbor and the King of Durin's Folk and that Sauron's hand never touched it. That implies that the other six were given directly by Sauron to the other Dwarf houses sometime after he'd taken them.

I believe the idea that Celebrimbor, not Sauron, had physically given that ring to Durin's house was the tradition handed down, but I don't think it was certain.

[Mithadan]

Appendix A states that Thrain's ring "was believed" by Durin's Folk to be the first forged of the Seven and "they say" that it was given to Durin III directly by the Elvensmiths. This section of the Appendix also states that Dwarven nature provided a resistance to some of the effects of the Seven and, as a result, they could not be reduced to wraiths or enslaved to Sauron's will and their lives were not extended. Nonetheless, the Seven did have evil effects upon the Dwarves because Sauron assisted in their forging.

To return to the topic, this suggests that it is possible the three remaining Dwarven Rings could have been used to create more wraiths. But the fact is that they were not so used, so either they were not appropriate for this use or Sauron chose not to use them this way.

[JeffF.]

Yet the reference to that ring as the First of the "Seven" gives weight to the theory that the Seven were intended all along for the Dwarves. Celembimbor apparently had very good relations with the Dwarves of Khazud-dum and makes this more likely, if not why distinguish at all between the Seven and the Nine?

[Hakon]

Well Celebrimbor was close with Narvi.

The thing is when Sauron gave out the original nine rings he did not give them to random men. He gave them to Kings. So lets assume that he gave one of the three Dwarven rings to the Mouth of Sauron. He has two left, who do you think he is going to give them to? I think one of his goals might have been at some point to capture Denethor and give him one of the rings, or maybe Boromir. It seems like in Sauron's eyes only some are fit to be his most faithful servants.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Hakon

Well Celebrimbor was close with Narvi.

The thing is when Sauron gave out the original nine rings he did not give them to random men. He gave them to Kings. So lets assume that he gave one of the three Dwarven rings to the Mouth of Sauron. He has two left, who do you think he is going to give them to? I think one of his goals might have been at some point to capture Denethor and give him one of the rings, or maybe Boromir. It seems like in Sauron's eyes only some are fit to be his most faithful servants.

I see no evidence that Sauron had such ambitions.
In the first place, capturing Denethor would have been no easy task, as it almost certainly would have required a full on assault against Minas Tirith, along the lines of the events of the War of the Ring. And we saw Denethor's reaction when he became convinced the City would fall. I don't think he would have allowed himself to be taken prisoner.
As for Boromir, if Sauron had designs of that sort would there have been a better time to attempt to capture him than when he was fighting to destroy the bridge at Osgiliath? The implication was that Boromir and Faramir were able to retreat only because the attack had served its purpose as a diversion to allow the Nazgûl to cross the Anduin. And the Witch-king was present! Surely if Sauron had wanted Boromir he could have had him then.

[Hakon]

That is true. I was just throwing the idea out there that Sauron may have wanted Denethor or Boromir.

[Alfirin]

When the messenger from Sauron came to the Dwarves wasn't one of the things he promsied them that they shoud have the three Dwarven rings again if they joined Sauron and helped Sauron find Bilbo and the One Ring? Assuming that Sauron was being in his own twisted way, sincere in this offer (And why wouldn't he be, if he held the one ring he would WANT the Dwaven rings on Dwarven fingers (at least for a while), doing thier mischief) that seems to imply that Sauron had the three rings avalaible to give, which they wouln't be if he had handed them out to three more men to make three more Nazgul. I can imagine the Mouth and two other men (maybe one great king each of Near and Far Harad, to make sure that the leader of each nation would ever be loyal to Him) but this would seem to be a later idea that would require that he abandon any plans of ensaring the Dwarven Kingdoms with them.

[Hakon]

This section of the Appendix also states that Dwarven nature provided a resistance to some of the effects of the Seven and, as a result, they could not be reduced to wraiths or enslaved to Sauron's will and their lives were not extended. Nonetheless, the Seven did have evil effects upon the Dwarves because Sauron assisted in their forging.

Well as Mithdan said earlier according to the Appendix the rings would not have turned the Dwarves to wraiths. So why would Sauron offer the three rings back to the Dwarves? It seems kind of pointless if he had nothing to gain from it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Hakon

Well as Mithdan said earlier according to the Appendix the rings would not have turned the Dwarves to wraiths. So why would Sauron offer the three rings back to the Dwarves? It seems kind of pointless if he had nothing to gain from it.

He had much to gain from it. Basically, he was just using the lure of the Rings to elicit cooperation from King Dáin. I'm of a divided mind as to whether or not he would have followed through and returned the Rings if they had given up Bilbo's name and home.

[Gordis]

I think most of you tend to misunderstand one thing: Sauron couldn't distribute any of the 19 again to create more slaves while he had no Ruling Ring.

How was the original Ring-scheme supposed to work?
Sauron gives a Ring to someone (an Elf, a Dwarf or a Man) and keeps the Ruling Ring himself. Through the connection between the One and one of the 19 he is able to constantly brainwash the owner of the lesser Ring, until he becomes his slave.
That's why the Elves never wore their Rings in the Second Age and the unsuspecting Men not only became wraiths, but slaves and servants to Sauron. Note: the Three themselves contained no evil, and the Seven and Nine, "corrupted" as they are said to be, still didn't contain a large chunk of Sauron's own self as did the One. It was the connection with the Ruling Ring that mattered.

When Sauron had lost the One, the other Rings had become temporary free. The Elves and Gandalf were able to use their Rings without any ill effects, the Dwarves who wore the Seven were also opposed to Sauron for generations. The Nazgul continued to serve him because of the previous harm done to their minds and souls so that by the Third Age they had become as evil as Sauron himself and conditioned to serve him. But even this conditioning proved not enough for Sauron's satisfaction: he saw fit to take the Nine Rings back to be sure of the nazgul's absolute loyalty.

Now what happens if Sauron gives one of the Rings to a Third Age Man? The Man would become a wraith eventually, but not Sauron's servant. While living, he would be as free to use his Ring unhindered by the Dark Lord as the Elves were. Sauron would be unable to brainwash the new owner of the Ring - because he had no Ruling Ring. That was the main reason why Sauron was collecting Rings n the Third Age, not distributing them. The second reason, IMO, was that he himself needed the power of the 19 to reshape,to increase his power, to rebuild Barad-Dur etc.

And note: Sauron only promised to give three of the Seven back to the Dwarves after he would get the One back. I have no doubt that once he got the One, he would have given the remaining three of the Seven maybe to Men, maybe to Dwarves and the Nine back to the Nazgul.

[Inziladun]

You make a lot of sense, Gordis.
I would wonder, however, if the other Rings would have been as 'free' when Sauron was bereft of the One as the Three were.
The Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with entirely different powers and purposes from the others. Their connection to the One was therefore weaker, but still there due to Sauron's ultimate influence in their making. For that reason, I do not think the Elves could have been reduced to wraiths in any case, merely dominated and controlled by Sauron with the One.
Any of the Seven given to a Man after the One was lost would, I think, have resulted in the possessor becoming Gollum-like. Ultimately in thrall to the Ring he bore and enduring beyond his years, but not entering the wraith-world due to the lack of Sauron's direct influence through the One.

[JeffF.]

Mithadan, you wrote earlier, "In The Council of Elrond it is stated only that the Three were hid by Celebrimbor. So from LoTR it is clear that Sauron gave at least the Nine to Men, but how the Dwarves got the Seven is not clear."

In the Silmarillion, Of The Rings OF Power in the Third Age (p357 of the Ballantine paerpack) it states that after the Three were saved and hidden, "...Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle Earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine,..."

RotK App.A as already mentioned stated that Durin's Folk said their ring was given to them directly by the elven smiths and not by Sauron.

I've found no other statement regarding the distribution of Rings to the Dwarves but those two make it pretty clear that Sauron gave at least six and maybe all seven of the rings given to Dwarves.

[Hakon]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Any of the Seven given to a Man after the One was lost would, I think, have resulted in the possessor becoming Gollum-like. Ultimately in thrall to the Ring he bore and enduring beyond his years, but not entering the wraith-world due to the lack of Sauron's direct influence through the One.

I am not so sure the man would be become Gollum-like. Tuor posted a quote from one of the letters in a different thread that relates to this.

Letters #246
Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully
instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the
Ring... if he still preserved some sanity...thery would simply have
waited. Until Sauron himself came.

Originally Posted by The Might

Tuor provides that interesting quote where Tolkien speaks about what would have happened had Frodo kept the Ring. What is important there is that the Professor underlines the fact that the only thing keeping the Ringwraiths from stabbing him to death is the tranformation that Frodo had gone through during his journey. All of a sudden he wasn't the weak Hobbit on Weathertop, but had seen and gone through so much that he had the authority to keep the Wraiths form hurting him as the master of the Ring.

The Might then does a good job of summing it and both the way The Might sums it up and the actual quote make me think that the man might slowly begin to turn into a wraith. The thing is they would not turn into a wraith instantly and most likely the ring would have been destroyed long before they were even close to becoming a full wraith.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Hakon

The Might then does a good job of summing it and both the way The Might sums it up and the actual quote make me think that the man might slowly begin to turn into a wraith. The thing is they would not turn into a wraith instantly and most likely the ring would have been destroyed long before they were even close to becoming a full wraith.

I'm thinking along the lines of Gordis above- that it was not the Rings themselves that caused the wraith-state, but the lies and deceits of Sauron which he induced by the power of the One.

They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron.

Silm Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age (emphasis added)

[Hakon]

I see. I was thinking along the lines that since Sauron put part of himself into the ring, it was that part that affected them. Which is what makes me think if anyone was in possession of the one ring and one of the seven was given to a man, that man would slowly become a servant of the owner of the one ring.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Hakon

The other thing is getting stabbed by a morgul blade is supposed to turn you into a wraith like the Nazgul. That would have been a very easy way to create more Nazgul.

Well Not sure about that, I think They'd become LIKE the Wraiths but far less powerful

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm thinking along the lines of Gordis above- that it was not the Rings themselves that caused the wraith-state, but the lies and deceits of Sauron which he induced by the power of the One.

I am afraid I have not been clear enough, so you have misunderstood me.

There are several different things that a Ring of Power does to a wearer.

1. A Ring itself mentally affects the wearer. Here the greatest danger is to wear the One, because it has a large embedded ingredient of Sauron's own evilness and power. To wear the Three is not dangerous from that point of view because the Rings themselves are unsullied. To wear the Seven or Nine is something in between - of course in them Sauron-element is noticeably smaller than that in the One (less than 1/20, in fact). I think a strong and good-intentioned Man like Aragorn or Isildur or the future nazgul could well resist the inherent evilness of the Nine Rings, if Sauron had not the One.
And look at Gollum. He had worn the most powerful and the most evil Ring with a large "chunk of Sauron" inside for 500 years. Had he become Sauron's slave? No. He hated Sauron's very guts, was able to resist the Dark Lord, was able to LIE to Sauron! So, even the most evil Ring all by itself doesn't make a Mortal Sauron's servant. Only the second factor - Sauron's DIRECT influence - could assure the enslavement.

2. While Sauron has the Ruling Ring in his possession, using the connection between the One and lesser Rings, Sauron himself mentally affects the wearer of one of the 19, slowly turning him into a willing slave. Here no one is immune: Elves would be as vulnerable as Men, and they didn't dare to wear the Three even for a day in the Second Age. Th Nine Men became Sauron's slaves because, oblivious to the danger, they did use the Rings in the SA and were fully exposed to Sauron's influence. As for the Dwarves, they proved rather resistant due to their stubborn nature, but not wholly: we know some clans of the Dwarves fought on Sauron's side in the Last Alliance.

3. And completely unrelated thing, IMO, is turning mortals into wraiths. I don't think Sauron wished to do that specifically, it was simply an undesired side effect of Men's immortality. It was the effect of the wearing of the rings, unconnected to Sauron.
Sauron had promised Men immortality - and the Nine Rings ALMOST provided it, but with some draw-backs. A Ring prolongs Man's life and binds his spirit to the Circles of Arda. In a way an Elven ring turns a Man into an Elf-like state: he doesn't age, or ages at an elven-rate, he cannot die of old age and receive the Gift of Eru, he continues living. But unlike Elven bodies, the bodies of Men are not supposed to endure for millennia, so very soon, much sooner than in Elves, a totally Elvish phenomenon occurs: the Ringbearers start to fade. Soon they become wraiths, like the Elves-Lingerers, invisible to mortal eyes.

For mortals Elven rings are some sort of life-supporting machine. Fading occurs, IMO, because the Nine Rings are not powerful enough life-supporting machines. The One Ring is more powerful, thus Gollum was able to live without fading much longer than an average nazgul. Perhaps, if the One Ring is indeed about 20 times more powerful than one of the Nine, Gollum would have been able to survive not only 500 years but much longer: maybe 2000-3000 years without fading. The Nine rings were less powerful, so the nazgul started fading much sooner.

For Dwarves the Rings couldn't serve as life-supporting machines, the Elven devices were too unspecific tor this species. The lives of the Dwarves were not prolonged by the Rings, they died naturally, so they had no time and no cause to fade.

[Pitchwife]

Just a few clarifying words from the mouth of the horse (Gandalf in LotR Book I, The Shadow of the Past):

'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later [...] the dark power will devour him.'[emphasis mine, Pw.]

Much as I like Gordis' line of argumentation (especially the bit about the Rings turning a Man into an Elf-like state!), this doesn't sound as if the process of 'wraithifying' and enslavement to Sauron were entirely unrelated.

[Flame of Anor]

It seems to me that when we are talking about Sauron putting on the one ring and the Elves then take off theirs, we are talking about the Three elven rings.

But to me, as i understand it, the three rings were untouched by Sauron so why would he putting on the one ring do anything to the three rings at all.

I think, as was stated earlier, that the 9 and 7 rings were originally meant for the Elves alone. They made them and why would they just willingly give away a craft of their labor. So they made these 16 rings for themselves, and the three in secret, and when Sauron put on the one the Elves with the 16 took them off because they knew his plan then, but the holders of the three had nothing to fear.

Angered, Sauron demanded the 16 rings be give to him but the Elves refused and he initiated the War of the Elves and Sauron to take back the rings, of which he did from Celebrimbor. But the three rings he did not seek because he did not know of them.

From what I've read Sauron started the War of the Elves and Sauron to get back the Elven Rings after the Elves took off their rings, but if he didnt know about the three how would he be angered from their taking them off, it doesnt add up unless its talking about the 16.

[JeffF.]

Though he did not ever touch them they were made with his assistance & knowledge of craft, this probably explains why he exerted less influence on the Three but as stated in LotR all they did with the rings would be laid bare to the Enemy.

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Hakon

He has two left, who do you think he is going to give them to?

One might have been possessed by Gothmog, who commanded Sauron's forces at Pelennor after the fall of the Witch King, even though other Nazgul were present. The other could have been forced upon the next-to-last King of Gondor. Earnur? Earnil? The one who rode to Minas Morgul alone at the challenge of the Witch King.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think most of you tend to misunderstand one thing: Sauron couldn't distribute any of the 19 again to create more slaves while he had no Ruling Ring.

You are absolutely right about this, Gordis, but Sauron was gambling that the One Ring would be his again very soon.

Of course, even with the One Ring Sauron's victory would not necessarily be swift and absolute. He possessed the Ring for many long years in the Second Age without achieving absolute domination ... and as we know he was ultimately overthrown in that era. Naturally the Kingdoms of Elves and Men were far more powerful in the Second Age, but even so Sauron was not all-powerful while possessing the Ring.

Redistributing some of the Rings he has reclaimed probably makes good sense. Even with the Ring it may take him some time to conquer all of Gondor/Rohan/Lorien/Dale/Rivendell etc. In any case it is in his nature now to try to dominate the will of others - although since the Dwarves were not susceptible to the Rings' domination in the past I have to wonder whether the Rings were little more than bait used to extract information from the weak and uncritical.