A Face-palm for Sauron

[Inziladun]

We are all aware that the strategy of Gandalf and the Wise for defeating Sauron was dependant upon Sauron not realizing the Ring still existed and had been found. Gandalf explains it to Frodo:

'And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done.

I could question just how Gandalf could know Sauron's thoughts on the matter, but I'll let it pass for now.
The problem is, Sauron should have been well aware the Ring was still around.
After all, he was able to re-body after the Last Alliance. The Barad-dûr he was able to rebuild, for its foundations had endured.
One could argue that Sauron had no exact knowledge of what would happen were the Ring to be destoyed, but there is this, when Frodo and Sam stood at the Sammath Naur:

Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung.

So it seems he did have an idea what would happen to him upon the destruction of the One.
The Tale of Years says Sauron apparently first arose about the year 1100 of the Third Age and occupied Dol Guldur. Notably very near to the place where Isildur fell and lost the Ring in the Anduin. The Ring was found by Déagol around 2463.
Here's the issue: shouldn't Sauron have realized fairly quickly after he re-bodied that the Ring was still about? If he had, he surely would have discovered much more rapidly what had happened to it, and things would have gone much differently.
Does this make sense, or am I being too hard on the poor, second-rate Morgoth?

[Kuruharan]

I would say Sauron probably wasn't sure himself what would happen if the Ring had been destroyed.

When Frodo was at Sammath Nur it probably suddenly seemed all to likely that the worst might come about. Things often do when bad stuff unexpectedly happens.

I'm not sure we can assume, though, that he wasn't looking for it or at least trying to find out what happened to it from the moment he returned. I think he probably was.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I thought Sauron assumed the Ring had been lost in the Sea: still hanging around, but un-obtainable. So I suppose Gandalf was just havering, more intent on getting Frodo out the door than making accurate guesses in re Sauron's thoughts.

[Boromir88]

Just because you are the maker of something, doesn't mean you know everything about it/how the thing you make will turn out.

I can attempt to make my sister's raspberry coffee cake for the 1st time, and I doubt it will turn out just the same, or just as good, even if I attempt to stick strictly with her "recipe."

When Saruman made his own ring, I doubt he was wanted to have a piece of jewelry for himself, he was trying to mimic Sauron and make his own Ring of power. As far as we know, it failed, and I doubt that was the outcome Saruman was hoping for...

So, simply because Sauron created a powerful Ring, that does not mean he knows everything about it. Sauron had the ability to reform, and re-shape into bodies before creating the Ring, why would his ability to do so after losing it, make him believe the Ring wasn't destroyed?

For as much as we know that Sauron believed no one had the will power to destroy his Ring, people will want to use it against him, maybe he only realized that when he was defeated by Isildur? First he assumes...well guess it was destroyed, too bad. Then after learning that neither the mighty Isildur, nor the stuck-up Elves, wanted to destroy it...that must means none of these weak humans (of the 3rd Age) will want to either. They will only seek to destroy me by using the Ring.

As far as Sauron recognizing his peril when Frodo reached Sammath Naur, that doesn't mean he knew that 2,000 years ago. What Sauron does figure out, is that he was 100% wrong about people not wanting to destroy the Ring. He always assumed the Ring's only threat would be if it was used against him, well if someone's taking it to the place where it can be destroyed, this proves Sauron was wrong, enter in doubt, concern, and fear that he could be wrong about the Ring in other ways too...not only now does someone want to destroy it, but mayber there is a powerful enough will to destroy it! (I'm only theorizing about Sauron's thoughts above, who can say for certain?)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

As far as Sauron recognizing his peril when Frodo reached Sammath Naur, that doesn't mean he knew that 2,000 years ago. What Sauron does figure out, is that he was 100% wrong about people not wanting to destroy the Ring. He always assumed the Ring's only threat would be if it was used against him, well if someone's taking it to the place where it can be destroyed, this proves Sauron was wrong, enter in doubt, concern, and fear that he could be wrong about the Ring in other ways too...not only now does someone want to destroy it, but mayber there is a powerful enough will to destroy it! (I'm only theorizing about Sauron's thoughts above, who can say for certain?)

It just doesn't ring true to me that Sauron put such a large portion of his power into the Ring without being fully aware what would happen were it to be destroyed.
The fear he felt when Frodo claimed the Ring so close to where it could be reduced to nothing had to have come from knowing how close he was to permanent disassociation from a corporeal form. What else would he have to fear? He was doing fine without the Ring from a military standpoint. It seems he could have easily won the war had the Ring remained hidden.

[Morsul the Dark]

Oh come on, The Write Brothers made the plane and HOPED it would Fly, Sauron couldn't have known about that, Did it ever get hit and he say Ouch my elbow? It's not something someone assumes. He probably nknew if the ring was destroyed the power he put in it would perish BUT not think He would die...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Oh come on, The Write Brothers made the plane and HOPED it would Fly, Sauron couldn't have known about that, Did it ever get hit and he say Ouch my elbow? It's not something someone assumes. He probably nknew if the ring was destroyed the power he put in it would perish BUT not think He would die...

With the potential permanent loss of so much power, how could he not expect it?
After all, it was over 1000 years into the Third Age before he was able to regain enough power to become the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, and even longer before he was able to return to Mordor and rebuild his forces, And that was with the simple loss of the Ring.
Again, why the 'choking fear' felt as Frodo claimed the Ring? Fear of Frodo? Hardly.
Sauron was deathly afraid of what could happen if he did not arrive in time to save the Ring.
He obviously didn't need it to defeat Minas Tirith and Rohan. If he was unaware of the effect the destruction of the Ring would have, why not shrug his shoulders at Frodo, continue to crush the forces of the West, and tell himself he would deal with the impudent little Hobbit when he had more time?
Instead, he immediately pulls all remaining Nazgûl from their duties bringing fear and despair to his enemies engaged in a decisive battle, and sends them to Mt. Doom. Seems a very desperate and terrified reaction to me.

[Morsul the Dark]

realization... He Found out what would happen, and that's the point he was Still a formidable foe without the ring. Imagine you have a baseball bat, are you lose it you're weakened but then you rebuilld you learn martial arts you can still kick butt you find out your bat is still in existence imagine how much More powerful you'll be with it. He didnt think he needed it.

Besides you're assuming he didn't think anyone would destroy the ring... so that would mean he understimated it's power.... so he still didn't know Everything about it did he?

[Findegil]

I imagine that when the ring was taken by Isildur Sauron was in panic and winged away into hidding. I assume that the physical fight with Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur had gone badly for Sauron and that Isildur was able to withhold the ring physically from Sauron at that moment. Further I think that when soon after Isildur claimed the Ring as his own instade of throwing it into the pit of doom that this act allone brought Sauron the loss of power we observe.
This loss of power for Sauron in this down fall (the overall event) was terrible (for him). It is mention a few times that Sauron was in doubt about the ring and its existence. Maybe he recognised only when Frodo claimed the Ring, as a kind of a reminder, that what had happend in the Second Age was like a birthday party against what was possible with the destruction of the ring.

I don't think that Sauron did consider what the loss of the Ring to some other Lord or the destruction of it would mean for him when he made that Ring. Consider Celebrimbor, he also found out too late how much of his inherent power had gone into his three Rings when Sauron had bound it up with the one and Celebrimbor could nolonger destroy his own creations even with the help of Galadriel.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Boromir88]

After all, it was over 1000 years into the Third Age before he was able to regain enough power to become the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, and even longer before he was able to return to Mordor and rebuild his forces, And that was with the simple loss of the Ring.~Inziladun

That still wouldn't necessarily prove to Sauron, the destruction of the Ring would destroy him too. Sauron could reform and rebuild before creating the Ring. I will have to track down the reference, but somewhere I remember Tolkien writing that with each rebuilding Sauron lost part of his "will." It wasn't the loss the Ring, but more of everytime he would have to rebuild, he would lose power, weaken, and of course each rebuilding took longer than the previous. So, theoretically, you could defeat Sauron for good militarily...with or without the Ring's existance, Sauron could have permanently been defeated, if you just killed him enough times. At least according to one reference, which I'm pretty sure comes from Letters, so there might be some questioning.

Instead, he immediately pulls all remaining Nazgûl from their duties bringing fear and despair to his enemies engaged in a decisive battle, and sends them to Mt. Doom. Seems a very desperate and terrified reaction to me.

Couldn't you say Sauron wanted his Ring back more than defeating his enemy? His choices more revolve on the Ring than defeating his enemy, because afterall he has an overwhelming amount of forces that could crush 'em anyway. But, his need for the Ring isn't driven out of fear that it would be destroyed, it is a fear the Ring could be turned against him.

This may be better suited for a different thread, but I've been working on the significance of the Sammath Naur. That is did the Ring actually need to get Frodo into the Sammath Naur to completely control him? By the time Frodo is getting there, we have no idea who is speaking, or who is in control...is it Frodo or is it the Ring? Also, we know that in the Sammath Naur is when the Ring is at it's maximum point of influence, so in order to gain complete control over Frodo, I wonder if the Ring needed to bring Frodo into the Sammath Naur? It's interesting , after being completely worn out and drained, near the Sammath Naur, Frodo suddenly finds the burst of strength to go running in...hmm.

So, I wonder if the key for someone to "master" the Ring is in the Sammath Naur? Say, if Gandalf, or Saruman wanted to master the Ring, would they need to take it to the place where it was made, take it where the Ring's influence was at it's strongest, and not only 'mentally' overthrow the Ring, but physically then have to overthrow Sauron? Is this what Sauron feared as to why the Ring was in the Sammath Naur? Did he know a Hobbit possessed it, and if not did he fear whoever had it was going to try to master it and overthrow him?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

It's not something someone assumes. He probably nknew if the ring was destroyed the power he put in it would perish BUT not think He would die...

But that's exactly what happened. He lost almost all of his power. He was a Maia- he could not die.

[Boo Radley]

Yes, Sauron could have won the war without the Ring, but he lusted after it in a way that makes Gollum look like a piker. The Ring contained so much of Sauron, that he was incomplete without it.
Sauron to the Ring: "You... complete me."

And, as I believe was said, Sauron couldn't conceive of anyone destroying the Ring, he could only believe that someone would attempt to use it against him.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, I wonder if the key for someone to "master" the Ring is in the Sammath Naur? Say, if Gandalf, or Saruman wanted to master the Ring, would they need to take it to the place where it was made, take it where the Ring's influence was at it's strongest, and not only 'mentally' overthrow the Ring, but physically then have to overthrow Sauron? Is this what Sauron feared as to why the Ring was in the Sammath Naur? Did he know a Hobbit possessed it, and if not did he fear whoever had it was going to try to master it and overthrow him?

That is a very compelling theory, Boro. I like it. I'd rep you if I hadn't just repped you for the WW game.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, I wonder if the key for someone to "master" the Ring is in the Sammath Naur? Say, if Gandalf, or Saruman wanted to master the Ring, would they need to take it to the place where it was made, take it where the Ring's influence was at it's strongest, and not only 'mentally' overthrow the Ring, but physically then have to overthrow Sauron? Is this what Sauron feared as to why the Ring was in the Sammath Naur? Did he know a Hobbit possessed it, and if not did he fear whoever had it was going to try to master it and overthrow him?

If by 'mastering the Ring', you mean one has found strength and will enough to actively wield it, I'd think the location where one claimed it immaterial.
Of course, anyone who believes they have mastered the Ring is in fact mastered by it. The new Ring Lord would not actually have 'overthrown' anything, but rather the reverse.
As for Sauron physically confronting the Ring's claimant, I think that would naturally occur. There is a quote, from Letters I believe, which states if Sauron proved the loser in such a contest the effect would be the same as if it were destroyed: he could never regain it.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If by 'mastering the Ring', you mean one has found strength and will enough to actively wield it, I'd think the location where one claimed it immaterial.
Of course, anyone who believes they have mastered the Ring is in fact mastered by it. The new Ring Lord would not actually have 'overthrown' anything, but rather the reverse.
As for Sauron physically confronting the Ring's claimant, I think that would naturally occur. There is a quote, from Letters I believe, which states if Sauron proved the loser in such a contest the effect would be the same as if it were destroyed: he could never regain it.

Very good point, Inziladun.

I just wonder, the quote from Letters notwithstanding, just how Sauron could be defeated by anyone holding the Ring. The Ring was part of him.
Well... maybe... okay... I think I can see it. But, hey! it wouldn't matter, would it? Anyone who defeated Sauron with the Ring would just become a brand new Sauron. There's be a name change, and the packaging would be a bit different, but it'd be the same nastiness inside the box.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

Very good point, Inziladun.

I just wonder, the quote from Letters notwithstanding, just how Sauron could be defeated by anyone holding the Ring. The Ring was part of him.
Well... maybe... okay... I think I can see it. But, hey! it wouldn't matter, would it? Anyone who defeated Sauron with the Ring would just become a brand new Sauron. There's be a name change, and the packaging would be a bit different, but it'd be the same nastiness inside the box.

Like when Gandalf says:

Originally Posted by Gandalf

I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.

Basically, in the same way that Olorin is no longer the second most important Istar, and so takes the place of Saruman, the new person who claimed the ring would be the Dark Lord in place of Sauron.

[Mithadan]

Excellent thread Inziladun! This is a question that has nagged at me a bit, particularly where I am of the school that seeks to reconcile the internal consistency of the mythos when something that seems not to fit is found, rather than chalking it up to an error by the author.

Boromir88 refers to a statement which he could not locate that Sauron is considerably weaker in the Third Age. I have found the reference and will start there. Letter 183, in the note at the bottom of the page, states that Sauron "By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned." It may be that due to this loss of his native power and strength, Sauron assumed the Ring had been destroyed. It was not until the Ring later surfaced (literally, not just from the River Anduin, but also from the caverns under the Misty Mountains where Gollum had taken it) that the Ring "called" to its master, making him aware that it had not been destroyed. Alternatively, a simpler explanation may be that he learned of the Ring when Gollum attempted to find Bilbo and made his way to Mordor and was caught. In either event, Sauron knows the Ring still exists by the time of LoTR.

The interesting related question is why was Sauron's strength reduced at all. The Silmarillion states that the people of the Valar could "clothe" themselves in the form of the Children of Iluvatar or go unclothed " and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them". Their forms could be assumed and disgarded at will. Why then does the destruction of Sauron's form at the end of the Second Age so weaken him if it is a mere form?

Letter 156 states that the Istari, as a condition to their returning to Middle Earth, were required to not merely clothe themselves, but incarnate; to house their spirits in a physical body "capable of pain, and weariness... and of being 'killed'". But Sauron, at least in the Second Age, was not so incarnated. He could shift from form to form still. He takes up a "fair" form to deceive the Elves of Hollin and again to deceive and corrupt the Numenoreans. The Akallabeth relates that "Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of the shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep... until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible..." It did not take long for him to create this new "guise". Yet when he is "slain" at the end of the seige of Mordor, it takes him a thousand years to take up a new form.

It is likely this weakness and loss of power that led Sauron to conclude that the Ring, which contained much of his strength, had been destroyed and, of course, this is what should have happened and if roles were reversed, Sauron would have destroyed the Ring. This interpretation makes "sense" and would be logical to Sauron's mind (and Gandalf comments that Sauron was analytical and logical at least to his own mind; "wise fool"). But Sauron was deceived. The "slaying" of a form of the people of the Valar almost never happened. So Sauron may not have realized the extent of the effect of the loss of a form (or body, by the end of the Second Age, he may have been incarnated).

Going to Letter 200, Tolkien relates that Sauron was always "de-bodied" when he was vanquished. Sauron's shape "was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms." Tolkien explains that it took longer for Sauron to rebuild his body/form after the battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil "because each building-up used some of the inherent energy of the spirit..."

It appears that the drastic difference between the loss of his native power after the Fall of Numenor and after his defeat at the hands of the Last Alliance may have been what tricked Sauron into believing that the Ring had been destroyed. A discussion for another day, and it may be question that cannot be answered, is whether there is a difference between the destruction the "form" in which a Vala/Maia is "clothed", and the destruction of a "body" in which a Vala/Maia is incarnated, and if there is a difference then why was Sauron incarnated?

[Boromir88]

Mithadan, nice post, and what I was referring to about Sauron losing part of his power with each rebuilding was from Letter 200

After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Numenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination).'

Gwath thanks. I think it's interesting to consider because when you read the chapter Mount Doom, I mean moments before Frodo goes into the Sammath Naur he is completely drained of strength, Sam is having to carry him. Then suddenly he gets this spurt of energy which allows him to fight Gollum, and get into the Sammath Naur...it's just curious trying to figure out why Frodo suddenly had this 'energy.'

Also, during this time Frodo says some strange statements, where the reader can't tell whether it is Frodo or the Ring talking, it's like they are now indistinguishable, and the Ring needed to get Frodo to the Sammath Naur, where it's power and influence was at the maximum.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Just one thought concerning Frodo's sudden energy spurt at the end:

In the chapter "Mount Doom" we read:

This was probably the only thing that could have roused the dying embers of Frodo's heart and will: an attack, an attempt to wrest his treasure from him by force.

Though Tolkien does not use the word, I think we clearly see the effect of adrenalin here, giving that extra bit of power in a desperate situation. I can vaguely remember a discussion on this once, but don't know where it's buried.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Lurking through the thread for a few days now as I admit this is something of a puzzle I'd never considered before (thanks Inziladun). And it's come to me that I've been misunderstanding Sauron all along. He does not have mastery over the Ring but has been mastered by it just like Gollum, Isildur, Frodo, Bilbo and everyone else who comes into contact with it (imagined or otherwise: e.g. Gandalf and Galadriel). Now, I know he's the Master of the Ring but that's a title which I think means he is the maker and 'proper' holder of the Ring but he's clearly not the master of it in the way that Tom Bombadil is master.

How'd I get to this? Because it's clear to me that the Ring has fooled Sauron as badly as it fools everyone else. Sauron obviously thought that the Ring could be destroyed and he would remain potent--he was even still able to control the Nazgul and he thought the Ring was destroyed; he was clearly not seeing very clearly if he thought he could, alone and naked, control the Nine when the One was undone. He believed, quite foolishly, that he was in charge and that it was his will alone and unsupported that was ordering events. This is the seductive whispering of the Ring: that you can use its power to fulfil your will and not its own. We see it time and again, promising people the fulfilment of their will, cloaked in the promise that they will be master, not-mastered (Boromir can save Minas Tirith and be a Captain, Gollum can have fish served to him all day and be The Gollum, Bilbo can outlive any other Hobbit, Sam can be the Gardener of Middle-Earth (and tangentially I would add a mystery I've thought of many times here on the Downs...what does the Ring offer Frodo? We are never told...)).

So now I'm wondering if some part of Sauron might have even been grateful to Frodo after the destruction of the Ring. Gandalf says that nothing was created evil and to me, at least, it's pretty clear that nobody is entirely beyond redemption. So in that moment when the Ring is gone, and Sauron realises the full extent of his folly to have believed that he was master when all along he'd been slave, is it impossible to imagine some small shred of him remembering the light of Valinor and feeling gratitude to the hobbits who have saved him???

[Pitchwife]

Interesting, especially your comparison between Sauron and Bombadil. In a way, Bombadil could be seen as Sauron's precise antipode, much more than even Gandalf. In my opinion (based on Eönwe's long post in the pertinent Chapter by Chapter thread), old Tom was immune to the lure of the Ring because he simply didn't care about power and its use for bulldozing reality (to use one of my favourite phrases from Tolkien); he was content to be his own master and let other things be what they were, even Old Man Willow. Sauron, on the other hand, cared about nothing else than power and bossing others around - hence his vulnerability to being deceived by his own creation (what a complicated way of deceiving yourself!).

I don't think, however, that there was anything left in Sauron that could feel grateful to the hobbits for saving him. (Saruman, maybe - his spirit turned west for a last time before it dissolved with a sigh, whereas the last gesture of Sauron's shadow after the fall of Barad-dûr was a futile menace.) I can't see that Sauron was saved at all in any way - rather he lost both his power as a tyrant and the light of Valinor.

[Farael]

I think we are approaching matters from the wrong perspective here. However, there have been so many (and so varied) ideas proposed that I'm not sure if I am merely rephrasing and repeating what others have said.

However, here are my thoughts in the matter:

-Sauron measures others perspective and thus is unable to comprehend why someone would not push their advantage to the limit. He doesn't just defeat his enemies, he CRUSHES them. See how he deals with Aragorn and the Captains of the West? He doesn't just dispatch a force strong enough to defeat them and keeps the rest in reserve for an unexpected eventuality. He lets all heck break lose upon his foes. So, since he's unable to put himself in someone else's shoes, he can't comprehend why Isildur wouldn't ruin every last vestige of him.

-Sauron could not have known for sure the effect the Ring would have had in other peoples. This wasn't a "corrupted" ring like he gave to the dwarves and men. The One Ring was more along the lines of the elven rings! Powerful on their own right and answering to no other will (except that the elven rings would've answered to the One Ring if Sauron had used it)

So, taking those two previous points it would make sense if Sauron had assumed that Isildur, being a great man among great men, had not fallen prey to the ring lure and had destroyed it, since it's what sauron would've done in his place

Now, Sauron is as sure as he can be that the Ring was destroyed. Next thing you know, he rebodies and the foundations of Barad-Dur are still there. There is no doubt in his rational mind that the ring WAS destroyed, thus evidence supports the idea that he in fact had enough innate power to survive that catastrophic event. After all, IF the ring was still around then surely someone would've claimed it and Sauron would have been able to see the clues that must've been clearly left behind.

Then he finds out the ring was NOT destroyed after all. So his certainty that he had survived the destruction of the ring disappeared into thin Mordor air. Therefore, when Frodo makes it to the crack of doom, he has every reason to worry!

After all

'And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done.

Gandalf is speaking in past tense. he BELIEVED the ring had perished. Now he knows better.