Purely Speculative: Limits to Elvish Creativity? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Ithilwen · 02-13-2002, 05:03 PM

Recently a question came into my mind, which to my knowledge was never addressed by Tolkien (so a definite answer can't be had), but which I nonetheless thought was interesting. So I thought I'd post it and see what other people's thoughts are on the subject.

Tolkien's elves are certainly lovers of beauty and knowledge, but all of their creations (at least that we readers are shown) seem limited to things of Arda. Their tools and crafts are lovely as well as functional, and certainly the Noldor seem to act as "scientists" of a sort, desiring pure knowledge and studying the workings of the universe. But all of the elvish literature/poetry that we are shown has as its subjects either the natural world or actual (either current or past) inhabitants of Arda. We are never shown any elvish fiction. Could it be that they can't produce any? Is the ability to tell compelling tales about completely non-existent persons (such as Romeo and Juliet), set in non-existent and frankly impossible places (such as the Matrix world or the planet Tatoonie) a function of the "gift of freedom" that Illuvatar gave to Men? Does the binding of the Elves' spirits to Arda also in some way restrict their imaginations in ways that Men's freedom of self-determination is able to overcome? If one of Tolkien's elves were to visit you town, would he find the most puzzling and interesting things to be the production of Hamlet at the local playhouse, the fiction section in the library, and the science fiction movie playing at the local cinema?

What is your opinion?

Lush · 02-13-2002, 05:26 PM

My opinion is that both the Matrix and the planet Tatooine are steeped in real-world allegory. A great story, no matter how fantastical on the surface, doesn't just land in your lap out of the blue. A dose of reality, no matter how big or small, has forever inspired writers to produce the greatest works of fiction. Myths and legends arise from experience, but are dressed in magic by the abundant imagination.
As for the Elves, who knows? This is a complex inquiry, and I am far too new to Tolkien's lore to express a solid opinion either this way or that. For some reason though, I can readily imagine an Elf with a tell-tale beret on his head, yelling "action!" at Keanu Reeves. Well, maybe that's just because I have, in general, a very strange mind.

Elendur · 02-13-2002, 06:25 PM

I think the elves probably did create fiction storys. It just never talks about them in the books. Just like you never hear men making up fictional stories. It doesn't mean they never did take the time to write a book that wasn't about history or Arda or whatever was going on in the present time, but that those are the most important type of stories that The Silmarillion is made out of and others stories.

You know what I mean. The Lord of The Rings and The Hobbit were (In Tolkien mythology) stories recorded by the hobbits and reworked by men in Gondor. And different elves record history that becomes The Lay of Beleriand and Narn I Hin Hurin and so on. These were the important stories, so they were the ones told. I dont think Elves were limited in any way.

Birdland · 02-13-2002, 11:46 PM

Since Tolkien's world is set in a vague time corresponding to our own Middle Ages, I don't get a sense of of their needing or even understanding the concept of "fiction". All of their tales and songs were based on their own history. (OK, maybe they embellished things a bit.)

Maybe they might have had some kinds of moralistic fables or tales to explain concepts or teach children, but that seems more like something Men or Hobbits might have done.

Besides, why would they need fiction? They were living the Story! And since they're immortal, there was always someone around who could confirm the details. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Daegwenn · 02-14-2002, 02:58 PM

Elves don't care about years, but wish to provide their people that come after them of things that have some significance to the way things are.

Although they are artistic, maybe in some way, their own story telling was a form of telling of their history only...Maybe they had a thing for beautiful architecture and other crafts, but when it came to words, they couldn't really imagine themselves in any other situation than what they were already in. Or, possibly it sort of shows that they are perfectly happy with their lives. Do we not pick up a book in order to escape the one we live in? Or create our own stories to escape grim reality?

Sincerely,
Daegwenn

Aralaithiel · 02-14-2002, 03:40 PM

They did have some rather lovely songs! I see them as the Bohemians of ME. They loved architecture and finely crafted things. They would have made very authentic hipies as well, alhh=though I don't know about the drugs. Wait...there's lembas! And Miruvor!
[img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Aralaithiel · 02-14-2002, 03:42 PM

OK!!! I definitely need some lembas & miruvor. Can't spell worth a flip today! I meant to say hippies, NOT hipies (or however I managed to butcher it). ARGH! And it is although, not whatever - MAX! Get off the keyboard! Dang cat!
sorry...

KayQy · 02-14-2002, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Or, possibly it sort of shows that they are perfectly happy with their lives.

I don't think that's it, look at all the sadness in their lays.

Could the alleged scarcity of elvish fiction be partly due to memories being more real to elves than the waking world? They surely had imagination, but they seemed to prefer dwelling on the vivid images (and sounds and smells and feelings) in their own minds. Elves, at least by the Third Age, seemed to be more concerned with saving and preserving than with creating something new.

Come to think of it, where are the fictional stories by men and dwarves and hobbits? Seems like nobody was really busy making things up at the time, (except for servants of the Dark Lord, though those stories usually went under the name of 'lies'). There's another theory. Could it be that the whole "lies that tell truths" concept had not yet come to Arda, and that made-up stories were either considered children's fancies or lies? After all, the truth was fodder enough for exciting stories! (Even if not every hobbit in the Green Dragon believed them.)

Birdland · 02-14-2002, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KayQy:
<STRONG>
Come to think of it, where are the fictional stories by men and dwarves and hobbits? </STRONG>

I guess Sam's song about the Troll and his "Nuncle Tim" would be a made-up story. Hobbit's lives were so peaceful and placid, that they probably made up tales, maybe loosely based on vaguely remembered history, but with a special Hobbit slant.

As for men, they seem to be mostly concerned with their own history, as well.

Elendur · 02-14-2002, 11:49 PM

I remember reading a post by Mithadan that talks about Men making up stories. I forgot where I read it though.

Considering that I have to base my proof on a post by Mithadan does show something though. I dont really remember a fiction being told, except for in songs. And those songs were by hobbits. I still think people in Middle Earth made fictional stories though, even elves. I think that in LOTR and The Hobbit, the hobbits (Who were the writers of the story) were always doing something more important. When you travel to Gondor and you are under the shadow you are more likely to hear of some history rather than fiction, if any story is told at all. I think you understand my point, but I cant explain it well.

I just think that elves didn't make many fiction stories. Like you have said, when the elves told stories they became immersed in them so that telling a story was like actually being there. An example would be Sam and Frodo sitting in the corner of the room in Rivendell while the elves sang songs. The hobbits 'fell asleep' and had fair visions of the songs they were hearing.

I wouldn't say that the hobbits fell asleep though. It seems more like they were simply so immersed in the elvish songs that they could not keep there eyes open and slowly drifted into a different dreams where they could fully realize the visions they were having. I think they were waking dreams though, not sleeping dreams.

Child of the 7th Age · 05-02-2003, 07:25 AM

What goes around comes around....

Not too long ago, there was a thread that considered whether Elves told fictional stories, and specifically looked at the creation of fantasy worlds.

I found this when poking about in the old threads, and thought I would draw it up since it represents an earlier variation on this same theme.

sharon

Frodo Baggins · 05-05-2003, 06:58 AM

Well, I see it this way..if one is an elf, why would one need to imagine anything else? What I mean is, if you are an elf, it can't get any better than reality, so why try?

Greyhame · 05-06-2003, 09:46 PM

I'd like to expand on what Lush said earlier...

I believe that there is a very real link between "reality" and "fiction". Some made-up stories contain a great deal more truth than what you'd see on the evening news, for instance. Why? Because the truth about reality has been scattered like a shotgun blast throughout the universe, and every now and then, in the quest for beauty (which I also believe to be closely intertwined with truth), we mortals stumble onto something that can't be expressed in dry, factual statements. This is where the line between fantasy and reality is most effectively blurred for me.

So, what does this have to do with elves? I think it was probably the other way 'round for them. They were in a world that was so much more real than our own, and yet was absolutely "fictional" in terms of what we today conceive of as the natural order. While their songs and poetry are (as far as we can tell) all based on real events, the magic of Middle-earth (an early version of our own world according to the Professor), summed up so wonderfully in the phrase "history became legend, legend became myth", worked its way even into the writings of the immortal, wise elves.

If anything, an elf in today's world would not understand the dichotomy that has been created between fiction and non-fiction. Alas, that is the price we pay for allowing evil to seep into the very fabric of the physical world...

Gorwingel · 05-06-2003, 11:18 PM

I never thought about this, but yes this could be true. In the books you never hear about Elvish fiction, you just hear about the stories of their past (amazing wonderful stories). Additonally they were binded with Arda forever so maybe it did keep them from creating stories about places far away from there.
Though they did live in a very mythical world, so they probably did not need to make up stories about mythical lands and places. The elves were a lot more set in there position in life. The men had much more freedom to think about anything they desired (additionally they were supposed to be us, and we make fiction stories, so they would probably too)

Lyta_Underhill · 07-21-2003, 11:35 PM

What an intriguing topic! I must agree with those of you who have recognized the greater "truth" in a story, as opposed to the stark reality. I believe this was the crux of an argument between Tolkien and C.S. Lewis--Lewis argued that myths, by their definition, were untrue, and Tolkien argued the exact opposite, that they were MORE true.

I do have a whimsical notion, that I cannot back up at all, but that makes me smile when I read improbable things...perhaps the telling of the story is the mythologizing of the reality into the truth! For instance, the story told of Earendil the Mariner sailing forever across the sky with the Silmaril on his brow could be a metaphor for a guiding star. What if Earendil simply disappeared? The story that is told is much more appealing than "Earendil was lost at sea, but we noticed this bright star that I'm not sure we saw before...etc. etc." Just an example of my way of thinking on this. I try not to let it intrude too far into my understanding, because it can ruin the experience. In the depths of night, I find myself wondering just how Fëanor invented the Internet and all... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I much prefer the metaphorical reality, and after much delving into scientific inquiries in the past, I am convinced that it is as valid as (or more than) the dry pursuit of facts. (One must always have a premise, a predisposition, a POV...a prejudice, if you will, in order to begin a scientific inquiry!) Then again, my mind is so open, my brains fell out long ago. But there is research that suggests that the soul and intelligence is NOT centered in the brain! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Goody!

Anyway, I do have another analogy for this sort of thing: who here has seen "Galaxy Quest?" The aliens are convinced the actors from Galaxy Quest are really who they are represented to be. They do not understand that they are acting, that they are not in reality who they portray. The whole adventure of the movie shows them in the end to be exactly who they were portrayed as being! Fiction becomes reality...truth is revealed, but not necessarily transformed from untruth...I hope that made sense! Bye now!

Cheers,
Lyta

02-13-2002, 05:03 PM	#1
Ithilwen Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: western Arda Posts: 41	Purely Speculative: Limits to Elvish Creativity? Recently a question came into my mind, which to my knowledge was never addressed by Tolkien (so a definite answer can't be had), but which I nonetheless thought was interesting. So I thought I'd post it and see what other people's thoughts are on the subject. Tolkien's elves are certainly lovers of beauty and knowledge, but all of their creations (at least that we readers are shown) seem limited to things of Arda. Their tools and crafts are lovely as well as functional, and certainly the Noldor seem to act as "scientists" of a sort, desiring pure knowledge and studying the workings of the universe. But all of the elvish literature/poetry that we are shown has as its subjects either the natural world or actual (either current or past) inhabitants of Arda. We are never shown any elvish fiction. Could it be that they can't produce any? Is the ability to tell compelling tales about completely non-existent persons (such as Romeo and Juliet), set in non-existent and frankly impossible places (such as the Matrix world or the planet Tatoonie) a function of the "gift of freedom" that Illuvatar gave to Men? Does the binding of the Elves' spirits to Arda also in some way restrict their imaginations in ways that Men's freedom of self-determination is able to overcome? If one of Tolkien's elves were to visit you town, would he find the most puzzling and interesting things to be the production of Hamlet at the local playhouse, the fiction section in the library, and the science fiction movie playing at the local cinema? What is your opinion? __________________ And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters.

02-13-2002, 05:26 PM	#2
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	My opinion is that both the Matrix and the planet Tatooine are steeped in real-world allegory. A great story, no matter how fantastical on the surface, doesn't just land in your lap out of the blue. A dose of reality, no matter how big or small, has forever inspired writers to produce the greatest works of fiction. Myths and legends arise from experience, but are dressed in magic by the abundant imagination. As for the Elves, who knows? This is a complex inquiry, and I am far too new to Tolkien's lore to express a solid opinion either this way or that. For some reason though, I can readily imagine an Elf with a tell-tale beret on his head, yelling "action!" at Keanu Reeves. Well, maybe that's just because I have, in general, a very strange mind. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

02-13-2002, 06:25 PM	#3
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	I think the elves probably did create fiction storys. It just never talks about them in the books. Just like you never hear men making up fictional stories. It doesn't mean they never did take the time to write a book that wasn't about history or Arda or whatever was going on in the present time, but that those are the most important type of stories that The Silmarillion is made out of and others stories. You know what I mean. The Lord of The Rings and The Hobbit were (In Tolkien mythology) stories recorded by the hobbits and reworked by men in Gondor. And different elves record history that becomes The Lay of Beleriand and Narn I Hin Hurin and so on. These were the important stories, so they were the ones told. I dont think Elves were limited in any way. __________________ Son of Isildur.

02-14-2002, 02:58 PM	#5
Daegwenn Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 82	Elves don't care about years, but wish to provide their people that come after them of things that have some significance to the way things are. Although they are artistic, maybe in some way, their own story telling was a form of telling of their history only...Maybe they had a thing for beautiful architecture and other crafts, but when it came to words, they couldn't really imagine themselves in any other situation than what they were already in. Or, possibly it sort of shows that they are perfectly happy with their lives. Do we not pick up a book in order to escape the one we live in? Or create our own stories to escape grim reality? Sincerely, Daegwenn __________________ "And still of a winter’s night, they say, when the wind is in the trees, When the moon is a ghostly galleon tossed upon cloudy seas, When the road is a ribbon of moonlight over the purple moor, A highwayman comes riding— Riding—Riding— A highwayman comes riding, up to the old inn-door. Over the cobbles he clatters and clangs in the dark inn-yard. And he taps with his whip on the shutters, but all is locked and barred. He whistles a tune to the window, and who should be waiting there But the landlord’s black-eyed daughter, Bess, the landlord’s daughter, Plaiting a dark red love-knot into her long black hair" Highwayman Alfred Noyes

02-14-2002, 03:40 PM	#6
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	They did have some rather lovely songs! I see them as the Bohemians of ME. They loved architecture and finely crafted things. They would have made very authentic hipies as well, alhh=though I don't know about the drugs. Wait...there's lembas! And Miruvor! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

02-13-2002, 11:46 PM	#4
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Since Tolkien's world is set in a vague time corresponding to our own Middle Ages, I don't get a sense of of their needing or even understanding the concept of "fiction". All of their tales and songs were based on their own history. (OK, maybe they embellished things a bit.) Maybe they might have had some kinds of moralistic fables or tales to explain concepts or teach children, but that seems more like something Men or Hobbits might have done. Besides, why would they need fiction? They were living the Story! And since they're immortal, there was always someone around who could confirm the details. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

02-14-2002, 03:42 PM	#7
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	OK!!! I definitely need some lembas & miruvor. Can't spell worth a flip today! I meant to say hippies, NOT hipies (or however I managed to butcher it). ARGH! And it is although, not whatever - MAX! Get off the keyboard! Dang cat! sorry... __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

02-14-2002, 11:49 PM	#10
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	I remember reading a post by Mithadan that talks about Men making up stories. I forgot where I read it though. Considering that I have to base my proof on a post by Mithadan does show something though. I dont really remember a fiction being told, except for in songs. And those songs were by hobbits. I still think people in Middle Earth made fictional stories though, even elves. I think that in LOTR and The Hobbit, the hobbits (Who were the writers of the story) were always doing something more important. When you travel to Gondor and you are under the shadow you are more likely to hear of some history rather than fiction, if any story is told at all. I think you understand my point, but I cant explain it well. I just think that elves didn't make many fiction stories. Like you have said, when the elves told stories they became immersed in them so that telling a story was like actually being there. An example would be Sam and Frodo sitting in the corner of the room in Rivendell while the elves sang songs. The hobbits 'fell asleep' and had fair visions of the songs they were hearing. I wouldn't say that the hobbits fell asleep though. It seems more like they were simply so immersed in the elvish songs that they could not keep there eyes open and slowly drifted into a different dreams where they could fully realize the visions they were having. I think they were waking dreams though, not sleeping dreams. __________________ Son of Isildur.

05-02-2003, 07:25 AM	#11
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	What goes around comes around.... Not too long ago, there was a thread that considered whether Elves told fictional stories, and specifically looked at the creation of fantasy worlds. I found this when poking about in the old threads, and thought I would draw it up since it represents an earlier variation on this same theme. sharon __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

05-05-2003, 06:58 AM	#12
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Well, I see it this way..if one is an elf, why would one need to imagine anything else? What I mean is, if you are an elf, it can't get any better than reality, so why try? __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

05-06-2003, 09:46 PM	#13
Greyhame Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: illinois Posts: 42	I'd like to expand on what Lush said earlier... I believe that there is a very real link between "reality" and "fiction". Some made-up stories contain a great deal more truth than what you'd see on the evening news, for instance. Why? Because the truth about reality has been scattered like a shotgun blast throughout the universe, and every now and then, in the quest for beauty (which I also believe to be closely intertwined with truth), we mortals stumble onto something that can't be expressed in dry, factual statements. This is where the line between fantasy and reality is most effectively blurred for me. So, what does this have to do with elves? I think it was probably the other way 'round for them. They were in a world that was so much more real than our own, and yet was absolutely "fictional" in terms of what we today conceive of as the natural order. While their songs and poetry are (as far as we can tell) all based on real events, the magic of Middle-earth (an early version of our own world according to the Professor), summed up so wonderfully in the phrase "history became legend, legend became myth", worked its way even into the writings of the immortal, wise elves. If anything, an elf in today's world would not understand the dichotomy that has been created between fiction and non-fiction. Alas, that is the price we pay for allowing evil to seep into the very fabric of the physical world... __________________ Poo-tee-weet?

05-06-2003, 11:18 PM	#14
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	I never thought about this, but yes this could be true. In the books you never hear about Elvish fiction, you just hear about the stories of their past (amazing wonderful stories). Additonally they were binded with Arda forever so maybe it did keep them from creating stories about places far away from there. Though they did live in a very mythical world, so they probably did not need to make up stories about mythical lands and places. The elves were a lot more set in there position in life. The men had much more freedom to think about anything they desired (additionally they were supposed to be us, and we make fiction stories, so they would probably too) __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

07-21-2003, 11:35 PM	#15
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 841	What an intriguing topic! I must agree with those of you who have recognized the greater "truth" in a story, as opposed to the stark reality. I believe this was the crux of an argument between Tolkien and C.S. Lewis--Lewis argued that myths, by their definition, were untrue, and Tolkien argued the exact opposite, that they were MORE true. I do have a whimsical notion, that I cannot back up at all, but that makes me smile when I read improbable things...perhaps the telling of the story is the mythologizing of the reality into the truth! For instance, the story told of Earendil the Mariner sailing forever across the sky with the Silmaril on his brow could be a metaphor for a guiding star. What if Earendil simply disappeared? The story that is told is much more appealing than "Earendil was lost at sea, but we noticed this bright star that I'm not sure we saw before...etc. etc." Just an example of my way of thinking on this. I try not to let it intrude too far into my understanding, because it can ruin the experience. In the depths of night, I find myself wondering just how Fëanor invented the Internet and all... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I much prefer the metaphorical reality, and after much delving into scientific inquiries in the past, I am convinced that it is as valid as (or more than) the dry pursuit of facts. (One must always have a premise, a predisposition, a POV...a prejudice, if you will, in order to begin a scientific inquiry!) Then again, my mind is so open, my brains fell out long ago. But there is research that suggests that the soul and intelligence is NOT centered in the brain! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Goody! Anyway, I do have another analogy for this sort of thing: who here has seen "Galaxy Quest?" The aliens are convinced the actors from Galaxy Quest are really who they are represented to be. They do not understand that they are acting, that they are not in reality who they portray. The whole adventure of the movie shows them in the end to be exactly who they were portrayed as being! Fiction becomes reality...truth is revealed, but not necessarily transformed from untruth...I hope that made sense! Bye now! Cheers, Lyta __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”