WW LXI: Grimm Tales

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Good grief. Who needs a seer to notice the fact that Aganzir just admitted she's evil.

The only way two people simultaneously suspecting somebody makes any difference to bad guys is if that somebody is a bad guy. Makes no difference the role of the two: the guilty conscience speaks for itself.

I don't understand what you're talking about. When I read through the day in the night, I thought it was possible Izzy was the ranger and was just testing Shasta & me (or others, if she was convinced we were guilty). The way she and Gwath started suspecting me at the same time (and with very little reason) made me think they had had a private chat and judged me evil. Consequently, I thought Gwath could be the seer.

And sorry if I'm somehow slower than you others, but it was only Izzy's posting today that really convinced me she's evil.

edit: xed with Nerwen. Could someone explain to me what that's about?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Agan (underlining mine)

I don't understand what you're talking about. When I read through the day in the night, I thought it was possible Izzy was the ranger and was just testing Shasta & me (or others, if she was convinced we were guilty). The way she and Gwath started suspecting me at the same time (and with very little reason) made me think they had had a private chat and judged me evil. Consequently, I thought Gwath could be the seer.

And sorry if I'm somehow slower than you others, but it was only Izzy's posting today that really convinced me she's evil.

Right, Agan, have a look at the underlined passage and tell me something. If you judge that someone who thinks you are evil is the Seer, what does that make you? (Clue: not innocent.)

[Nerwen]

Okay... in the interests of being perfectly fair, I guess Agan could mean that the wolves thought that Gwath and Izzy (supposedly the Seer and Ranger) were pm-ing about her during the Day without the Seer having dreamed her yet, and it was just the fact that they seemed to be communicating that alerted the wolves– not that it was about Aganzir in particular. (Am I making sense?)

Hmmn... All well and good... but it's just not the way an innocent thinks, in my opinion.

Also, she's making a great show of suspecting Izzy toDay... but look how neatly that argument exonerates her.

EDIT: fixed bolding.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Okay... in the interests of being perfectly fair, I suppose Agan could mean that the wolves thought that Gwath and Izzy (supposedly the Seer and Ranger) were pm-ing about her during the Day without the Seer having dreamed her yet, and it was just the fact that they seemed to be communicating that alerted the wolves– not that it was about Aganzir in particular. (Am I making sense?)

Yes that's a fair point - but on the second quote, the one I posted in my last post, she says she thought Gwath was the Seer, which is kind of interesting...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Yes that's a fair point - but on the second quote, the one I posted in my last post, she says she thought Gwath was the Seer, which is kind of interesting...

That sort of illustrates what I mean about "not the way an innocent thinks"...

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

That sort of illustrates what I mean about "not the way an innocent thinks"...

Indeed. I should make a list in order not to concentrate solely on Aganzir's wolfy thinking. I'm quite convinced we've got a wolf (interested to see how she defends herself, though), but we also have three others, and though I'll probably vote Agan toDay I don't want to spend the whole Day talking only about her. Yes. I should make a list.

But then, I should also write an essay. Gah...

[Nerwen]

Well, I need to get some sleep.

Good night.

[the phantom]

I'm pretty much hating Izzy right now.

Originally Posted by Izzy

Anywhoo. I don't believe I ever claimed dream results were in on Aganzir and Shasta. I said I had an epiphany - very different.

Really? Are you sure?

I asked you if the Seer had dreamed of you, and you said this-

Originally Posted by Izzy

They did indeed dream of me.

That means that you would be able to PM with the Seer (because the Seer can PM the FGM or Hunter if he/she dreams one of them), which means you would know ALL THE DREAM RESULTS!!!

So, I went back and looked at the guilt/innocence list you posted (here), and you didn't say anything certain about anyone on the list, except Agan and Shasta who were listed as "foul".

So the OBVIOUS implication was that the Seer had told you that Shasta and Agan were guilty, seeing as they were the only two listed with any certainty ("He is foul" and "She is foul").

But then of course right at the end you posted this-

Originally Posted by Izzy

Nope. The seer has not dreamed of them, yet.

And if I had seen that before I voted I would've just kept my vote on you. I didn't think Shasta was a terrible risk because I figured he wasn't the Seer, so I went along with your claim, but once I saw that you were claiming to be dreamt of AND know absolutely nothing for certain, well.... I was not pleased.

How do you explain this, lass?

[A Little Green]

Nerwen - Makes mostly valid points, is helpful and clever and entertaining, none of which makes her innocent of course, but I have little reason for suspecting her.

Eomer - I have very little on him considering how actively he has posted. Could be anything.

Aganzir - Like I said I'm pretty convinced we've got a wolf here.

McCaber - I wish he'd post more. Things being as they are I can't say this or that about him.

Izzy - She. Is. Causing. Me. A. Big. Headache. Seriously though, I do wonder why she wasn't killed last Night. Either she is a baddie who's faking or else the wolves expected her to protect herself. Also her interactions with Agan are interesting. Dunno. I want to check her posts, but I won't have time to do that today. Hopefully I'll have the time still toDay..

Mira - I'm uneasy about her, because of that affair with the cause against Fea. She's another one I'd need to check.

Gaurcrist - Another one I'd wish to hear more from.

Kath - A classic Kath; relatively quiet but speaks a lot of sense. No idea about her role, possibly leaning innocent.

Inziladun - Seems okay.

Fea - If Agan does turn out to be a baddie it makes Fea look quite innocent since she was the one who originally paid attention to Agan's "slip". I don't claim that others wouldn't have noticed it if she hadn't pointed it out, but the fact that she was the first to do that makes me seriously doubt that she'd be her fellow. Besides, nothing else she has said has caused me to suspect her.

Lari - The same as McCaber and Gaurcrist. Hope she'll be better soon! Food poisoning sounds nasty.

the phantom - Still no idea.

SO:

Leaning innocent:
Fea
Inziladun
Kath
Nerwen

No idea:
McCab
Gaurcrist
Lari

Too many ideas:
Izzy
phantom
Eomer

Leaning evil:
Mira

Downright evil:
Agan


EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen (Good night!), Inzy (Hello!) and phantom (Hello!)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I don't understand what you're talking about. When I read through the day in the night, I thought it was possible Izzy was the ranger and was just testing Shasta & me (or others, if she was convinced we were guilty). The way she and Gwath started suspecting me at the same time (and with very little reason) made me think they had had a private chat and judged me evil. Consequently, I thought Gwath could be the seer.

And sorry if I'm somehow slower than you others, but it was only Izzy's posting today that really convinced me she's evil.

Oddly enough, Gwath's last vote was for you, was it not?
I don't find your potshots at me particulary worrisome. I explained my Kath vote, and no, it wasn't that solid of a case, but it was down to her and Mith and I made a decision. At least I didn't vote a known innocent as I did the first time.
I know what side I am on, thank you.

Izzy is still highly suspicious. In post #490 she goes into detail about why Agan is so dodgy, gives a couple of lines to Shasta, proclaiming him 'foul' as well, and then goes and votes Shasta. And for someone needing to justify a pretty serious claim, she's not speaking all that plainly.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Right, Agan, have a look at the underlined passage and tell me something. If you judge that someone who thinks you are evil is the Seer, what does that make you? (Clue: not innocent.)

Okay I admit that looks funny (I'm seriously irritated but your comment managed to make me laugh). The point was that I thought Izzy and Gwath had been communicating, and the seer & the ranger could communicate.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Okay... in the interests of being perfectly fair, I guess Agan could mean that the wolves thought that Gwath and Izzy (supposedly the Seer and Ranger) were pm-ing about her during the Day without the Seer having dreamed her yet, and it was just the fact that they seemed to be communicating that alerted the wolves– not that it was about Aganzir in particular. (Am I making sense?)

Either that, or they wanted to find someone whose death would take our eyes off Izzy. In this light the latter sounds a hundred times more likely than the former, and they seem to have succeeded in that damn well. I just don't understand why she pretty much confessed now if their intention was to keep her alive, unless she's the Bridegroom.

This is annoying me to no end, if we don't get a baddie today our chances are going to be very slim tomorrow, and you are talking about lynching me!

Originally Posted by Nerwen

but it's just not the way an innocent thinks, in my opinion.

I fail to see why. I think mainly about myself and compare I'm a self-centered player because my innocence is the only thing I can be sure about (and I'm a self-centered person because I'm just so awesome).
So, Nerwen, tell me what is the way an innocent thinks. Go ahead. Tell me why you think Gwath was killed. I request everybody tell me why Gwath died. That will not only reveal to us how an innocent thinks (we just take the theory most people agree on and declare it AN INNOCENT WAY OF THINKING), but it will also be very helpful since it gets people talking.

And I am being serious.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, she's making a great show of suspecting Izzy toDay... but look how neatly that argument exonerates her.

Where did that come from? I didn't say anything definite about her before she started posting today.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

she says she thought Gwath was the Seer, which is kind of interesting...

Yes and Izzy said the seer hadn't dreamed of me so I don't see where the problem is.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I explained my Kath vote, and no, it wasn't that solid of a case, but it was down to her and Mith and I made a decision.

No it was not particularly the vote but the fact that your suspicion of her looked wolfish!

It's pretty interesting Greenie doesn't find Izzy (who practically confessed earlier today) suspicious but wavers on her. Remember the wolves can afford to be bold at this point, there are so few days left if everything goes according to their will.

Really this is ridiculous.

[Mirandir]

I'm around but I'm going to wait to see how a few things play out before I post anything of significance. That and my brain doesn't function without food and pizza isn't here yet.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Agan

This is annoying me to no end, if we don't get a baddie today our chances are going to be very slim tomorrow, and you are talking about lynching me!

Come on, sweetheart. If you cooled down a bit you'd see that the things you've said do make you seem very suspicious. You, too, would get suspicious of such comments. Of course if you're innocent then it isn't reasonable for us to talk about lynching you, but just don't act as if you had no idea how come anyone could suspect cute little you.

Originally Posted by Agan

It's pretty interesting Greenie doesn't find Izzy (who practically confessed earlier today) suspicious but wavers on her. Remember the wolves can afford to be bold at this point, there are so few days left if everything goes according to their will.

Practically confessed? If that's true then I must've missed that. Anyway, one reason for me to waver on Izzy is that if you are a wolf it makes me wonder whether the thing the two of you are playing at is too dangerous to be wolf-on-wolf - but then, you said it yourself, wolves can afford to be bold at this point.

[Aganzir]

Mira you could for example be the one to start and tell me why Gwath was killed.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

but just don't act as if you had no idea how come anyone could suspect cute little you.

Aww Green you're all too sweet, you're making me smile all the time although I'm pretty p*ssed off. <3
Seriously I still don't understand what was so suspicious in my comment and despite asking, no one has bothered to tell me. It was what I had been thinking, take it or leave it.

Originally Posted by Green

Practically confessed? If that's true then I must've missed that. Anyway, one reason for me to waver on Izzy is that if you are a wolf it makes me wonder whether the thing the two of you are playing at is too dangerous to be wolf-on-wolf - but then, you said it yourself, wolves can afford to be bold at this point.

She did absolutely nothing to explain her behaviour, which I take as a confession. If she was innocent it would be in her best interests that we didn't lynch her, especially given how little time there's left.

And why on earth are you more certain about my guilt than Izzy's? I'm not the one who has pretended to be a gifted and claimed to know who the seer has found guilty (the both of whom, surprisingly, innocent).

Oh yes I forgot to mention one reason I was uncertain about Izzy's claim - I wondered why she'd come out as the ranger since then not just one but two people would know she was lying, if she wasn't the ranger herself.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Agan

She did absolutely nothing to explain her behaviour, which I take as a confession. If she was innocent it would be in her best interests that we didn't lynch her, especially given how little time there's left.

I don't see how it would be in a wolf's best interests that we lynched her, either.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

I don't see how it would be in a wolf's best interests that we lynched her, either.

But if she was innocent she would probably explain why she did what she did - now she seems to have contented to be lynched, like, "there's nothing I can do about it so why even try". I think it's more likely a baddie goes down without fighting than an innocent.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Agan

And why on earth are you more certain about my guilt than Izzy's? I'm not the one who has pretended to be a gifted and claimed to know who the seer has found guilty (the both of whom, surprisingly, innocent).

First of all, there is the fact that I still find your comments about Izzy and Gwath terribly furry, and like I said your guilt would make Izzy's a bit less probable. Certainly not impossible, but less probable. Secondly, there is this point you yourself phrased quite a lot clearer than I could have:

Originally Posted by Agan

Oh yes I forgot to mention one reason I was uncertain about Izzy's claim - I wondered why she'd come out as the ranger since then not just one but two people would know she was lying, if she wasn't the ranger herself.

Since the Seer and Ranger can communicate, claiming as Ranger would be as good as telling both the Seer and the real Ranger "I'm a baddie". There has been no counter-claim, though it's possible that the real Ranger - or let alone the Seer - wants to lay low for some time still. Be that as it may, it would still be a huge risk for a wolf to claim as Ranger in a game where claiming as Ranger pretty much reveals his/her identity to two players instead of one.


EDIT: x-ed since my last - wow, there's people here!

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Mira you could for example be the one to start and tell me why Gwath was killed.

And why would I have any idea why Gwath was killed?

In case you couldn't tell I'm here and reading, just needed to respond to that before I forgot.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Mirandir

And why would I have any idea why Gwath was killed?

Because everyone is supposed to have at least some kind of idea, and I am trying to find out how much my own idea resembles those of the others in order to tell if my way of thinking is innocent or not.

By the way, more than half the players have less posts than the mod.

[McCaber]

First off, I'm sorry about not being there yesterDay. I need to remember my on and off days better.

So it looks rather dire for our humble village right now. I won't have a lot of time toDay, either, so I've got to go with

++Aganzir

I should be back later to take a look at a few more people. But it should be pretty clear that we found at least one wolf today.

[the phantom]

I'm certainly not saying that Agan is innocent, but why does she look more guilty than Izzy, people?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I'm certainly not saying that Agan is innocent, but why does she look more guilty than Izzy, people?

Yeah that's what I'd like to know too.

Some people are doing a very good job at making me look like a wolf and I can't believe even people I've always considered sensible players are falling for it!

[the phantom]

By the way, did anyone notice this in yesterday's narrative?

The villagers dropped the bows and started walking to their proper homes, the four baddies taking their usual routes towards the Old Witch's home. They all smiled to themselves. What bad guy doesn't know how to shoot an arrow?

Shasta was killed by four arrows. Four baddies walked to the Witch's home. First, I'd say that Reddie has not been turned.

Second, if baddies can all shoot arrows, wouldn't five arrows have killed Shasta? I see five baddies listed on the role list. Have we lost one somehow?

[Aganzir]

Be so kind as to explain the reasons for your vote, McCaber.

Also, you could go and tell me why Gwath was killed. I'm interested in hearing your theory.