Wondering about the Elves... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

NotHomeYet · 02-16-2002, 06:50 PM

Maybe I'm stupid for asking the Q, but...

So we all know that a half-elf or part-elf (like Arwen) would have to give up his/her immortality to marry (or, I assume, consummate a relationship with, though I always thought such things did not occur outside of marriage in Tolkien's world) a mortal. But how about someone who's fully elf? People seem to assume that the same is true, but Gimli, who is a dwarf and therefore more hated by the Elves than any other mortal, was allowed with Legolas into the Undying Lands. Any reason why a human mortal wouldn't be allowed with his/her spouse?

As Timon said, "Did I miss something?!" [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Raefindel · 02-16-2002, 07:03 PM

I'm not really sure either. I could be wrong, but I believe Arwen (who was actually 3/4 elven) could have chosen to go with the elven ships, but she would have to leave her husband to do so, and his job as king was just beginning as the ships were leaving. Gimli was allowed because of his friendship with Galadriel not Legolas. It seems there was special permission obtained in his case. So,I guess, I don't really have any answers for you. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Thingol · 02-16-2002, 07:22 PM

There have been 3 unions of elves and men that we know of; Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, and Aragorn and Arwen. Beren and Luthien concieved a child (Dior) as did Tuor and Idril (Earandil). Elves do not need to give up their imortality to bear a child with a mortal. At the end of the First Age Elrond and Elros were given the choice of which race they wished to be accounted among. Elros chose to be counted among the mortals and Elrond among the Eldar (Elves). Elrond's children were also given this choice and Arwen chose mortaility. I'm not sure why she chose this, perhaps it was because in order to remain imortal she must remain with her father Elrond and she was unwilling to leave Aragorn.

Glim Iceholder · 02-16-2002, 07:35 PM

Quote:

We have heard tell that Loegolas took Gimli Gloin's son with him because of thier great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is stand indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar shoudl recieve him or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter

And Arwen gave up her immortality because she didn't want to live forever after Aragorn had died, not because she had to to marry him.

Most importantly, had Aragorn been allowed in the undying lands he just would have died faster the undying lands do not give immortality to races, infact mortals die faster in the undying lands. That is what lead to the destruction of the Numenoreans, they thought they would be immortal if they could go to the undying lands.

NotHomeYet · 02-16-2002, 07:38 PM

Ah, so she didn't want to LEAVE him...I get it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Lindolirian · 02-16-2002, 07:43 PM

I may wrong, Glim Iceholder, but I think that the Numenoreans were destroyed by Iluvatar, The Valar set down their guard and Iluvatar changed the Earth and the Sea opened and swallowed Numenore and the Great Armament of Ar-Pharazon. I think it says that Ar Pharazon and the warriors were killed by landslides in the Calcirya. But you are right in saying that the Undying Lands do not give immortal life as the later Numenoreans thought.

Bruce MacCulloch · 02-16-2002, 07:44 PM

Quote:

There have been 3 unions of elves and men that we know of; Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, and Aragorn and Arwen.

Actually, there is one other instance specifically mentioned by Tolkien: Imrazor the Numenorean, who dwelt in Belfalas, and the Elven-lady Mithrellas, one of the companions of Nimrodel. They were the ancestors of the Princes of Dol Amroth. Remember Legolas's conversation in The Return of the King with Imrahil.

Quote:

"Hail, lord!" he said. "It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lorien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water."
"So it is said in the lore of my land," said the Prince ...

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

Lush · 02-16-2002, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NotHomeYet:
(or, I assume, consummate a relationship with, though I always thought such things did not occur outside of marriage in Tolkien's world

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did not Beren and Luthien um, "consummate" their relationship before Thingol and Melian even knew of Beren's existence? Lines like "she slipped from his arms and vanished from his sight even as the day was breaking," certainly make you wonder. They spent much of their time alone together, in the woods, and I somehow doubt they were just picking flowers the entire time. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Thingol · 02-16-2002, 10:17 PM

I should have said 3 are known, Imrazor and Mithrellas is only a legend of men and not actual fact as recorded by the elves. Noone actually knew if this was true, Legolas was merely stating that what he has heard in legends. However, I tend to believe the legends of men that appear in the books. If they weren't at least in part true why would Tolkien write about them?

NotHomeYet · 02-18-2002, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did not Beren and Luthien um, "consummate" their relationship before Thingol and Melian even knew of Beren's existence? Lines like "she slipped from his arms and vanished from his sight even as the day was breaking," certainly make you wonder. They spent much of their time alone together, in the woods, and I somehow doubt they were just picking flowers the entire time.

Shame on you, corrupting my young mind [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] In all seriousness, they very well might have, but I somehow just...don't...I dunno, that sort of thing belongs in Star Wars, not LOTR, for Pete's sake! Besides, Tolkien frowns on it, that I can gaurantee...unless of course anyone has any evidence to the contrary, in which case I don't gaurantee... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Who knows? Maybe they WERE just picking flowers... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Elendur · 02-18-2002, 10:26 PM

Quote:

And Arwen gave up her immortality because she didn't want to live forever after Aragorn had died, not because she had to to marry him.

I think that is wrong. Arwen was given the choice of staying in Middle Earth or going with her father to sail over the seas. She chose to stay in Middle Earth for Aragorn. Therefore she becamse mortal.

I find this topic interesting though. When Luthien was with Beren she decided to marry him. Therefore she had to become mortal. But when Idril married Tuor she did not have to become mortal. Why? I have no idea.

But I think Arwen lies in a category out of these two in terms of her choice. She did not become mortal because she married Aragorn, she became mortal because of her decision to stay in Middle Earth.

So, NotHomeYet I dont think there is a difference between a half-elven and an elven person marrying a mortal. But I cant explain why Luthien had to become mortal to marry Beren, yet Idril did not have to become mortal to marry Tuor.

Nazgûl Queen · 02-19-2002, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elendur:
When Luthien was with Beren she decided to marry him.

<center>Correct me if I'm wrong...
But from what I've read in the Silmarillion, Beren was killed... so Luthien went to the halls of Mandos and sang to him, begging for Berens life.
Mandos felt pity for her and went to seek Manwe's advice. Luthien was given two choices - she could go to Valinor and forget all her grief, or be sent back to Middleearth with Beren, where both would have to die a second death.

So she became mortal because it was the only way to save Beren's life.

Quote:

But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middleearth, and take with her beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal, and subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world forever, and her beauty become only a memory in song. This doom she chose...

Elendur · 02-19-2002, 01:44 AM

Looks like I was wrong, Nazgul Queen. You are right. I should have done some research before posting.

Lush · 02-19-2002, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NotHomeYet:


Shame on you, corrupting my young mind [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] In all seriousness, they very well might have, but I somehow just...don't...I dunno, that sort of thing belongs in Star Wars, not LOTR, for Pete's sake! Besides, Tolkien frowns on it, that I can gaurantee...unless of course anyone has any evidence to the contrary, in which case I don't gaurantee... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Who knows? Maybe they WERE just picking flowers... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

There is a difference between corruption and experience (read Blake). Really, who knows what Tolkien did and didn't frown upon? You can't draw any solid conclusions simply from the fact that he was Catholic, as in, "Tolkien thought premarital sex was bad because he was a practicing Catholic."
I belong to the Russian Orthodox church, and consider myself to be religious, yet if I was Luthien, I doubt I would limit myself to the picking of daisies if Beren was at my side. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

NotHomeYet · 02-19-2002, 10:36 PM

One of the main beliefs of all the Christians I've ever known (ha, yeah, that includes yours truly, if you hadn't already guessed) is that there IS no difference between corruption and experience.

While Tolkien doesn't exactly give us an outline of Middle Earth's sexual mores, he certainly came from a generation in which premarital sex was frowned upon, and was likely to have picked up on that. Besides, the Catholic church is famous for being pretty staunch on that point...

Well, I'll just stick with my theory, thank'ee much... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lush · 02-21-2002, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NotHomeYet:
One of the main beliefs of all the Christians I've ever known (ha, yeah, that includes yours truly, if you hadn't already guessed) is that there IS no difference between corruption and experience.

While Tolkien doesn't exactly give us an outline of Middle Earth's sexual mores, he certainly came from a generation in which premarital sex was frowned upon, and was likely to have picked up on that. Besides, the Catholic church is famous for being pretty staunch on that point...

Well, I'll just stick with my theory, thank'ee much... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Ah, guess you haven't met many Christians like myself yet! See, corruption is...corruption. Experience, on the other hand, is something that we must transcend, and grow wiser in the process. Just look at the double-meaning behind Blake's The Lamb. And no, by saying this I don't mean that we should all jump into the bushes with Beren (ah, what a thought! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ), or spend the rest of our lives mulling over the sexual behaviors of various characters from Middle Earth, but this has been a good discussion nonetheless, and I hate for people to feel as if they are being corrupted. It's not me you should worry about anywyay, when it comes to corruption.
...Yes, I do wear my estrogen on my sleeve from time to time.

02-16-2002, 06:50 PM	#1
NotHomeYet Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 13	Wondering about the Elves... Maybe I'm stupid for asking the Q, but... So we all know that a half-elf or part-elf (like Arwen) would have to give up his/her immortality to marry (or, I assume, consummate a relationship with, though I always thought such things did not occur outside of marriage in Tolkien's world) a mortal. But how about someone who's fully elf? People seem to assume that the same is true, but Gimli, who is a dwarf and therefore more hated by the Elves than any other mortal, was allowed with Legolas into the Undying Lands. Any reason why a human mortal wouldn't be allowed with his/her spouse? As Timon said, "Did I miss something?!" [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ The signs are obvious They are everywhere All that we hear about Is the gloom and despair Too many would be prophets Saying it's the end of it all 'Cause Mother Earth can't take much more The skies are gonna fall So nature has its needs That's a lesson learned But it appears to me There are greater concerns 'Cause we can save the planet Thinking we will somehow survive But Father Time is calling us To save somebody's life So I won't bend and I won't break I won't water down my faith I won't compromise in a world of desperation What has been, I cannot change For tomorrow and today I must be a light to future generations --- 4HIM

02-16-2002, 07:03 PM	#2
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	I'm not really sure either. I could be wrong, but I believe Arwen (who was actually 3/4 elven) could have chosen to go with the elven ships, but she would have to leave her husband to do so, and his job as king was just beginning as the ships were leaving. Gimli was allowed because of his friendship with Galadriel not Legolas. It seems there was special permission obtained in his case. So,I guess, I don't really have any answers for you. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

02-16-2002, 07:22 PM	#3
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	There have been 3 unions of elves and men that we know of; Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, and Aragorn and Arwen. Beren and Luthien concieved a child (Dior) as did Tuor and Idril (Earandil). Elves do not need to give up their imortality to bear a child with a mortal. At the end of the First Age Elrond and Elros were given the choice of which race they wished to be accounted among. Elros chose to be counted among the mortals and Elrond among the Eldar (Elves). Elrond's children were also given this choice and Arwen chose mortaility. I'm not sure why she chose this, perhaps it was because in order to remain imortal she must remain with her father Elrond and she was unwilling to leave Aragorn. __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

02-16-2002, 07:38 PM	#5
NotHomeYet Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 13	Ah, so she didn't want to LEAVE him...I get it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ The signs are obvious They are everywhere All that we hear about Is the gloom and despair Too many would be prophets Saying it's the end of it all 'Cause Mother Earth can't take much more The skies are gonna fall So nature has its needs That's a lesson learned But it appears to me There are greater concerns 'Cause we can save the planet Thinking we will somehow survive But Father Time is calling us To save somebody's life So I won't bend and I won't break I won't water down my faith I won't compromise in a world of desperation What has been, I cannot change For tomorrow and today I must be a light to future generations --- 4HIM

02-16-2002, 07:43 PM	#6
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,117	I may wrong, Glim Iceholder, but I think that the Numenoreans were destroyed by Iluvatar, The Valar set down their guard and Iluvatar changed the Earth and the Sea opened and swallowed Numenore and the Great Armament of Ar-Pharazon. I think it says that Ar Pharazon and the warriors were killed by landslides in the Calcirya. But you are right in saying that the Undying Lands do not give immortal life as the later Numenoreans thought. __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

02-16-2002, 10:17 PM	#9
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	I should have said 3 are known, Imrazor and Mithrellas is only a legend of men and not actual fact as recorded by the elves. Noone actually knew if this was true, Legolas was merely stating that what he has heard in legends. However, I tend to believe the legends of men that appear in the books. If they weren't at least in part true why would Tolkien write about them? __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

02-19-2002, 01:44 AM	#13
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	Looks like I was wrong, Nazgul Queen. You are right. I should have done some research before posting. __________________ Son of Isildur.

02-19-2002, 10:36 PM	#15
NotHomeYet Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 13	One of the main beliefs of all the Christians I've ever known (ha, yeah, that includes yours truly, if you hadn't already guessed) is that there IS no difference between corruption and experience. While Tolkien doesn't exactly give us an outline of Middle Earth's sexual mores, he certainly came from a generation in which premarital sex was frowned upon, and was likely to have picked up on that. Besides, the Catholic church is famous for being pretty staunch on that point... Well, I'll just stick with my theory, thank'ee much... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ The signs are obvious They are everywhere All that we hear about Is the gloom and despair Too many would be prophets Saying it's the end of it all 'Cause Mother Earth can't take much more The skies are gonna fall So nature has its needs That's a lesson learned But it appears to me There are greater concerns 'Cause we can save the planet Thinking we will somehow survive But Father Time is calling us To save somebody's life So I won't bend and I won't break I won't water down my faith I won't compromise in a world of desperation What has been, I cannot change For tomorrow and today I must be a light to future generations --- 4HIM