Beorn

[skytree]

What is the nature of Beorn? I know Tolkien only makes one reference to him in a letter as man but he was constantly revising much of his mythos.

Beorn may have been mortal but clearly he was more than a man. His role in the Hobbit is more nature or the animal kingdom personified and his role seems to be as a force of nature. He seems to be an anomaly like Tom Bombadil.

Clearly his size is more consistent with being a giant than a man. His description in the chapter Queer Lodgings would place his height at around 12-14 feet if one considers Bilbo around 3 1/2 feet tall. Almost singularly he turned the tide and broke an army of Orcs and Wargs that a combined force of Elves, Battle hardened Dwarves under Dain, Men, Great Eagles and an Istari was losing to. He was tossing Orcs and Wargs like straw and feathers. One can only envision an enormous bear scattering orcs by the score with swipes of gigantic paws.

If he was a man he would have to had an incredible origin as he would have to be considered one of the powers of middle earth in his lifetime.

[The Might]

Ok, firstly, saying he may have been a mortal is wrong, he was a mortal, we know he died.

And we know he was a man, Tolkien names him exactly that in the letter, and rather than talking about any natural power, something Bombadil-like, he refers to Beorn as a magician.

So the whole story of Gandalf about Beorn descending from the great bears of the mountains is more or less a way to explain his origins to the Hobbits, but not something we should take seriously.

About his origins, we know for sure that Beorn had lived in the Misty Mountais before he was forced to move away by the coming of the Orcs, so he had lived there previously. But as far as we know, he was not created by the Valar or anything else, he was born by a woman.

It is said in HoMe 12 that the Beornings were related to the Woodmen, the Bardings of Dale and the Eotheod, meaning that Beorn descended from a group of people existing prior to the events of the Hobbit, the men of the mountains who were forced to leave by the coming of the Orcs and other creatures.


So much to his origins. Now to the origin of his power. Here, I have two theories, the latter of which I rather prefer.

Theory 1: some time in the development of the men of the mountains they learned how to transform into bears. How? No idea. Some old, shamanical rituals, maybe learned from Orome in times long forgotten or from some Maia that was never mentioned. This I rather doubt since Gandalf would probably know if some Maia had had anything to do with it, so maybe these men learned it on their own. After all in Tolkien's works people with a special, strong connection to nature like Beorn anyway always seem to have special powers, so why not believe that these otherwise rather primitive men found out a way to shapeshift.

Theory 2: this which I rather prefer is that Beorn learned it, as the first one to have ever learned it, from Radagast the Brown. We know he knew Radagast, that they were friends, especially because of their common passion of being in nature, and that they met at times. We also know that Radagast was a master of shapes and hues. Not directly called shapeshifter, but a hint to it is there. So why wouldn't the master of shapes and hues teach his friend a trick or to so that Beorn can defend himself and the Woodmen of the region as well? It makes perfect sense that Beorn was taught this technique and that because of his innate love for beasts he mastered it fairly quickly. His descendants would then perhaps also at a certain age learn this trick.

Btw, nice thread, Beorn is one of my favourite topics, I like the unknown, mysterious creatures of M-e.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

There's another interesting connection to The Might's
second theory. Recall that Sauron the maia shapeshifted
into a wolf to attack Huan. And there's JRRT's omniscent commentator's
observation that some of Beorn's descendants were bad guys,
which has some resemblance to the contrast of the Edain's loyalty vs.
the betrayal of some of the later arrivals to Beleriand.

Many of the Easterlings turned and fled, their hearts
being filled with lies and fears; but the sons of Ulfang went over
suddenly to Morgoth and drove in upon the rear of the sons of
Feanor...They reaped not the reward that Morgoth promised them,
for Maglor slew Uldor the accursed, the leader in treason,
and the sons of Bor slew Ulfast and Ulwarth ere they themselves
were slain.

Just had a thought. What about the Blue Wizards? Why not some
sort of connection to an ancestor of Beorn being schooled by
them, for some reason, in shapeshifting?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Just had a thought. What about the Blue Wizards? Why not some
sort of connection to an ancestor of Beorn being schooled by
them, for some reason, in shapeshifting?

I would think that unlikely, as they don't seem to have spent much time in the lands west of the Anduin, not even long enough to have been given names by the folk there.

I really do not know anything clearly about the other two-since they do not concern the history of the N.W. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were.

Letters #211

[skytree]

Originally Posted by The Might

Ok, firstly, saying he may have been a mortal is wrong, he was a mortal, we know he died.

And we know he was a man, Tolkien names him exactly that in the letter, and rather than talking about any natural power, something Bombadil-like, he refers to Beorn as a magician.

So the whole story of Gandalf about Beorn descending from the great bears of the mountains is more or less a way to explain his origins to the Hobbits, but not something we should take seriously.

About his origins, we know for sure that Beorn had lived in the Misty Mountais before he was forced to move away by the coming of the Orcs, so he had lived there previously. But as far as we know, he was not created by the Valar or anything else, he was born by a woman.

It is said in HoMe 12 that the Beornings were related to the Woodmen, the Bardings of Dale and the Eotheod, meaning that Beorn descended from a group of people existing prior to the events of the Hobbit, the men of the mountains who were forced to leave by the coming of the Orcs and other creatures.


So much to his origins. Now to the origin of his power. Here, I have two theories, the latter of which I rather prefer.

Theory 1: some time in the development of the men of the mountains they learned how to transform into bears. How? No idea. Some old, shamanical rituals, maybe learned from Orome in times long forgotten or from some Maia that was never mentioned. This I rather doubt since Gandalf would probably know if some Maia had had anything to do with it, so maybe these men learned it on their own. After all in Tolkien's works people with a special, strong connection to nature like Beorn anyway always seem to have special powers, so why not believe that these otherwise rather primitive men found out a way to shapeshift.

Theory 2: this which I rather prefer is that Beorn learned it, as the first one to have ever learned it, from Radagast the Brown. We know he knew Radagast, that they were friends, especially because of their common passion of being in nature, and that they met at times. We also know that Radagast was a master of shapes and hues. Not directly called shapeshifter, but a hint to it is there. So why wouldn't the master of shapes and hues teach his friend a trick or to so that Beorn can defend himself and the Woodmen of the region as well? It makes perfect sense that Beorn was taught this technique and that because of his innate love for beasts he mastered it fairly quickly. His descendants would then perhaps also at a certain age learn this trick.

Btw, nice thread, Beorn is one of my favourite topics, I like the unknown, mysterious creatures of M-e.

No other men of Middle Earth possessed his immense size, not even ancient men like Hador, Huor, or Tuor. Based on the description in the Hobbit he was beyond the size of a normal man. His size in bear form also seemed to be a manifestation of his rage. When he appeared at the battle of five armies his bear form was gigantic in nature. His wrath was such that it broke an army that the combined forces of Elves, Men, Dwarves, Eagles and an Istari was losing to.

Tolkien crafted quite a bit of his myths from old Norse sagas and myth. I suppose Beorn could have been like Beowulf. Beowulf was a berserk which comes from barsark or "bear shirt" in Norse. He was a man but would fight in unstoppable rages and possessed the strength of 30 men and was able to slay a troll and even a dragon. Beorn's description and the description of his home clearly have similarity to that of a Viking mead hall.

Even still there is clearly something supernatural about Beorn. His size clearly is giant like in stature and changing into a an enormous bear is something no other men do, not even those in ancient Numenor at the height of the Edain's power.

The term Beorning, I think, simply describes the northmen of the Anduin vale who follow Beorn as their cheiftan.

These are a couple of images that visualize Beorn for me from the way he is described in the books.

http://www.davidbordwell.net/blog/wp...ague_beorn.jpg

http://www.wladca.pl/Rivendell/galer...iew_fullscreen

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/182843

[Gordis]

In a normal fantasy novel when strange creatures like green octopuses or two- headed rats or giant were-bears are spotted somewhere, the first thing to do is to check: isn't there a secret genetic laboratory in the vicinity?

In fact there are two of them close to Beorn's dwelling:

1. Radagast's Rhosgobel (that's why I like The Might's theory) and

2. Dol Guldur, where a certain Necromancer is busy breeding all sorts of fell beasts, olog-hai, uruks, werewolves etc. Why not were-bears?
Perhaps some laboratory creatures had escaped and multiplied in freedom?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I've had thoughts similar to the Might's connections with Radagast and his reported mastery of changes of shapes and hues, and they seem to make the most sense to me. Sometimes, though, I wonder if there is any similarity to the notion that Thorondor was a Maia who took the form of an Eagle, and from him the Great Eagles of Middle-earth descended (don't ask me to cite where in the HoME books I read this; I'm recovering from the flu, and it's a marvel my brain is functioning much at all ). If there is precedent for certain unusual but seemingly "normal" creatures in ME having this kind of origin, it's possible that Beorn had a distant ancestor descended from some Maia of Orome or Yavanna who inhabited ME during its early ages and favored the shape of a great bear, whose story we simply have never heard. This may be completely fever dreams, but it might point to a kind of explanation that Tolkien, alas, never got around to actually imagining, or writing.

That aside, I'm with the Radagast connection.

[The Might]

That's an awesome idea, Gordis!

Dol Guldur could, at least theoretically, be an idea. I mean, what if the Necromancer started testing weird stuff on people, trying to turn them into mighty bears that would aid his cause.

Some predecessors of Beorn then escaped or were maybe let loose into the wild, but perhaps because they retained too much humanity they were safe to be around when in human form and were not ready to serve Sauron. Maybe they escaped sometime during the Watchful Peace when Sauron wasn't there, made their way into the Misty Mountains and left again when the Orcs arrived.

But here comes the big problem in the Dol Guldur theory... if Beorn's kind had been actually created by Sauron in some way, then this skill would be not something learned, but rather something passed on genetically. It was in their blood to have this power and Beorn inherited it that way, perhaps as the last of his line.

But why would he then be called a magician? A magician cannot perform tricks as if he has the knowledge in his blood, he learns the tricks first. This is why it would only make sense for Beorn to have been tought shapeshifting by someone who already mastered it. Either his parents in the mountains, who for whatever reason knew this, or Radagast.

Now, of course Sauron may have tought them this, but I doubt it since it was not his style. He would not teach minions how to gain greater power, he would like his master from the First Age rather torment and use dark magic on them.


Ok, now to Beorn's size. I know it sounds incredible that he was this big, but don't be so sure that it was something special really. Now, we know that the men of the mountains he probably descended from were related to the Woodmen, the Eotheod and the Bardings, meaning they all had ancestors in some distant House of Men from the First Age.

However, in Tolkien's works Men are not always what we regard as Men. There are Hobbits as smaller variant and then there are the Giants, a very weird race that appears to have lived in the Misty Mountains as well and who were (I can't the original quote for now) a larger version of men, just like Hobbits were the small one. This is how Tolkien refered to them, still men. Now, although in other early writing (BoLT) Tolkien regards them as evil and creations of Melkor in the Hobbit it appears that nice Giants do exist, as Gandalf wants to find one to block the entrance to the Front Porch.

This means that giant sized men did exist, they were there in the Hobbit, so Beorn's size was nothing really special.

Pure speculation on my part of course, but what if some predecessor of Beorn fell in love with a Giant and then... you know... Beorn inherited some of the Giant's qualities... more or less like Hagrid.

Unfortunately we learn nothing new about Giants in LotR, the only hint given is when the Fellowship hears voices when trying to use the Redhorn Pass.


PS: I am really enjoying the thread.


EDIT: regarding this idea, Ibri, of course it is plausible, but in my opinion not really probable. Gandalf was wisest of all Maia, he probably knew many if not all of them and I would expect him to be informed about these kind of things especially after all those extensive voyages through M-e. That's my problem, I find it difficult to believe that a Maia would take the form of a shapeshifter and marry a man/woman in the mountains like Melian did with Thingol and give birth to such a line. Still plausible though.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Gordis

2. Dol Guldur, where a certain Necromancer is busy breeding all sorts of fell beasts, olog-hai, uruks, werewolves etc. Why not were-bears?
Perhaps some laboratory creatures had escaped and multiplied in freedom?

I think that this is scenario is highly unlikely, Beorn hated Goblins with a passion, I don't think that anything that Sauron might have made would suddenly turn against him.

I'm going to look up more on Radagast and see if I can find a connection. Thanks for bringing that up Might.

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Gordis

In a normal fantasy novel when strange creatures like green octopuses or two- headed rats or giant were-bears are spotted somewhere, the first thing to do is to check: isn't there a secret genetic laboratory in the vicinity?

In fact there are two of them close to Beorn's dwelling:

1. Radagast's Rhosgobel (that's why I like The Might's theory) and

The only thing that would make me doubt this is Beorn's seeming lack of being impressed by the fact Gandalf was a Wizard. In the course of the dialog between Beorn and Gandalf when Gandalf was telling the story of their crossing the Misty Mountains, there is no awe or reverence of Gandalf or his exploits. I think he make a comment, "it is some good being a Wizard then" and "I wish I had been there, I would have given them more than fireworks."

One would expect this if Beorn's abilities were from an experimentation of Radaghast or knowledge taught by him, he would have a reverence for a Wizard and their abilities.

[skytree]

Originally Posted by The Might

That's an awesome idea, Gordis!



Ok, now to Beorn's size. I know it sounds incredible that he was this big, but don't be so sure that it was something special really. Now, we know that the men of the mountains he probably descended from were related to the Woodmen, the Eotheod and the Bardings, meaning they all had ancestors in some distant House of Men from the First Age.

However, in Tolkien's works Men are not always what we regard as Men. There are Hobbits as smaller variant and then there are the Giants, a very weird race that appears to have lived in the Misty Mountains as well and who were (I can't the original quote for now) a larger version of men, just like Hobbits were the small one. This is how Tolkien refered to them, still men. Now, although in other early writing (BoLT) Tolkien regards them as evil and creations of Melkor in the Hobbit it appears that nice Giants do exist, as Gandalf wants to find one to block the entrance to the Front Porch.

This means that giant sized men did exist, they were there in the Hobbit, so Beorn's size was nothing really special.

Pure speculation on my part of course, but what if some predecessor of Beorn fell in love with a Giant and then... you know... Beorn inherited some of the Giant's qualities... more or less like Hagrid.

Unfortunately we learn nothing new about Giants in LotR, the only hint given is when the Fellowship hears voices when trying to use the Redhorn Pass.

I never thought of the Giant angle and they were an offshoot of Man just like Hobbits. The fact Beorn comes from the Mountains would make sense of him sharing the size traits of the Giants of the Misty Mountains.

[The Might]

About the wizard part, he may not have really been aware about the connection between Radagast and Gandalf before really.

"I am Gandalf," said the wizard.
"Never heard of him," growled the man, "And what's this little fellow?" he said, stooping down to frown at the hobbit with his bushy eyebrows.
"That is Mr. Baggins, a hobbit of good family and unimpeachable reputation," said Gandalf. Bilbo bowed. He had no hat to take off, and was painfully conscious of his many missing buttons. "I am a wizard," continued Gandalf. "I have heard of you, if you have not heard of me; but perhaps you have heard of my good cousin Radagast who lives near the Southern borders of Mirkwood?"
"Yes; not a bad fellow as wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again," said Beorn. "Well, now I know who you are, or who you say you are. What do you want?"

So it appears that Beorn had no idea what wizards were or who Gandalf truly was.
Now, you may say that if had indeed learned so much from Radagast he would not call him only "not a bad fellow" and say they only met "now and again".
I admit that a bit more would be expected from Beorn when speaking of the one that passed this knowledge on to him, but still I see no theory being more likely than this one.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by The Might

Now, you may say that if had indeed learned so much from Radagast he would not call him only "not a bad fellow" and say they only met "now and again". I admit that a bit more would be expected from Beorn when speaking of the one that passed this knowledge on to him, but still I see no theory being more likely than this one.

One would expect Beorn to be more knowledgeable about wizards and have a closer relationship to Radagast, if he learned this skill from him, but is there any evidence that Beorn is the very first of his line to have this ability? Radagast has been in ME for nearly 2000 years by the time of the Hobbit; could he have taught the skill to one of Beorn's forefathers, who taught it to his son, who taught it to his son, etc.? If this is the case, then Beorn may not have more than a passing acquaintance with Radagast (who was becoming more of a homebody by this time, anyway), and yet the skill could still have come from Radagast, ultimately. That's, to me, a more plausible origin that allows for things like the lack of knowledge about wizards, and yet permits a relatively more contemporary origin of skill than something reaching back into the Elder Days.

[Andsigil]

I've always wondered about Tolkien's, meaning the man's and the author's, preferences for animals when I read about Beorn.

For example, it seems that Tolkien disliked crows, wolves, and reptiles, which is why he made them villains in his books in the form of crebain, wargs (and Carcharoth), and wyrms. Assuming Tolkien acted on his prejudices by paralleling European mythogy, wolves, to the best of my knowledge, have always been villains in European myths (the exception being the wet nurse of Romulus and Remus). And and one has to look far and wide to find a culture which has positive things to say about snakes in its mythology.

Now, while crows are often portrayed as villains in old tales, Norse mythology, which with Tolkien was no doubt quite knowledgeable, shows them as positively as the sidekicks of Odin in the form of Hugin and Munin. Perhaps Tolkien's dislike for crows was personal, seeing them as carrion eaters and thieves. I'm not certain but I can picture the old man throwing rocks at the crows in his back yard which were stealing food from the bird feeder which he had intended for thrushes.

Tolkien portrays other animals as heroic and noble: hounds, horses, eagles, and bears. The bears are an interesting choice for him to portray positively. Bears are fairly scarce in European myths as far as I know. It's long been assumed that the Viking berserkers got the name from the Swedish "Bärsärk" and wore bear skins as a totem. The parallels between Beorn and the beserkers is obvious, but the Norsemen portray them as barbaric and savage killers, which Beorn is obviously not.

So, as I started to say in the beginning, I wonder what personal preferences led Tolkien to portray bears as being on the side of Good in Middle Earth. Tolkien wouldn't have made Beorn what he was unless he, himself, liked bears for some reason.

[The Might]

Well, I'll try to look up some info on bears in mythology an repost them here.

Firstly, we know that Tolkien had extensively studied Norse mythology and particularly the Finnish language when creating the Elvish tongues.
For the Finns the bear has a very important place in their culture, the bear was considered the spirit of the forefathers. It also is the national animal of Finland.
And in many other countries including Germany and Russia bears play an important role often being used symbolically as a way to portray the nation itself and is found in many fairytales.
And even when I think back to my childhood in Romania I remember that the bear is considered to be the king of the forest there and also appears in many fairytales that I used to enjoy.
So I really don't see why the bear would then have to represent anything negative in M-e after Tolkien studied its importance for Europeans.


Ibri, that is a great idea that seems to explain everything we read about in the books. It makes sense that Radagast may have often frequented the Misty Mountains in company of the beasts there, bears as well, and then found these men living there.

[Andsigil]

Thanks, TM. I wasn't aware of bears' representation in both Romania and Finland. Tolkien was obviously widely read in mythology and would likely have known this. I was aware of the Russian bear, but never got the impression that Tolkien was a Russophile.

[The Might]

True, true, and he was no Germanophile either.

But yeah, the Finns are the best example, especially since the Professor knew their mythology so extensively.

And if you think about it, it makes sense for all these people who descended from hunter-gatherers living in forests to worship bears. After all, if you live in the forest, what is probably the most dangerous thing to come across as a human... a bear! So, as a not so intelligent prehistoric man you make up stories and legends to explain yourself the power of the bear and you pass them on to your children and so on.

Bears ftw!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

But yeah, the Finns are the best example, especially since the Professor knew their mythology so extensively.

And if you think about it, it makes sense for all these people who descended from hunter-gatherers living in forests to worship bears.

So Stephen Colbert is definitely not descended from Finns?

More seriously, why did Tolkien (in The Hobbit) portray crows as bad but
ravens as good and noble? Is there some northern mythological
reason?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Now, while crows are often portrayed as villains in old tales, Norse mythology, which with Tolkien was no doubt quite knowledgeable, shows them as positively as the sidekicks of Odin in the form of Hugin and Munin.

The parallels between Beorn and the beserkers is obvious, but the Norsemen portray them as barbaric and savage killers, which Beorn is obviously not.

I'm at work currently, so I am going off my fading memory, but I believe Hugin and Munin were ravens and not crows. Ravens are reverenced by Dwarves in the Hobbit, whereas crows are not (also, 'stormcrow' and 'crows and gibbets' being obvious epithets).

Berserkers being savage and barbaric would depend on one's point of view. Perhaps the Franks or Anglo-Saxons believed they were, but among the various denominations of Norsemen they were considered great warriors and heroes.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

More seriously, why did Tolkien (in The Hobbit) portray crows as bad but
ravens as good and noble? Is there some northern mythological
reason?

See above. Ravens were Odin's special agents.

[The Might]

I really love Colbert's reports on bears, I watched a compilation of several clips some time ago. I actually at first only watched the Daily Show, but now I'm a big fan of the Colbert Report as well.

Ok, enough about that, talking about them birds:

Crows, and especially ravens, often feature in European legends or mythology as portents or harbingers of doom or death, because of their dark plumage, unnerving calls, and tendency to eat carrion.

Now this is strange, since it would seem that crows and ravens are to be seen more or less as belonging to a similar mythlogical category, evil carrion-eating war-bringing birds.

However, in the case of the ravens there is one special case I know of. Odin was connected to ravens in Norse mythology, I believe they served as his eyes and ears. As such, ravens were useful and good birds rather than bad ones. And isn't there a story that says that England will fall if the ravens leave the Tower of London? I believe I heard something like that whilst in London this summer on some tourist tour.

So, Tolkien may have had some reason to portray ravens as good birds and crows as bad.

I do however believe that there is a lot more to the whole mythological background of these creatures, I think the matter deserves a thread of its own which I'll be starting soon.

EDIT: xed with Morth and I missed that in Andsigil's post leading to the repetition.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

It's long been assumed that the Viking berserkers got the name from the Swedish "Bärsärk" and wore bear skins as a totem. The parallels between Beorn and the beserkers is obvious, but the Norsemen portray them as barbaric and savage killers, which Beorn is obviously not.

But doesn't Beorn turn into a bear when he's angry? I also seem to remember that he was quite violent in the battle of Five Armies, and that's the only time we see him fight.

Originally Posted by The Might

And if you think about it, it makes sense for all these people who descended from hunter-gatherers living in forests to worship bears. After all, if you live in the forest, what is probably the most dangerous thing to come across as a human... a bear! So, as a not so intelligent prehistoric man you make up stories and legends to explain yourself the power of the bear and you pass them on to your children and so on.

Not only that, but bears are hunter-gatherers themselves, and good ones at that. Prehistoric man could probably learn a lot from looking at bears (from a safe distance, of course). Their size and power also could be quite enviable.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But doesn't Beorn turn into a bear when he's angry? I also seem to remember that he was quite violent in the battle of Five Armies, and that's the only time we see him fight.

I was thinking of this part:

Much can be derived about berserkers from Egils saga. Egil's grandfather was named Kveld-Ulf meaning "evening wolf", and this is generally ascribed as meaning he was a werewolf. Kveld-Ulf's son, referred to as Skalla-Grimm, was a berserker. Kveld-Ulf and Skalla-Grimm are both depicted as irascible and violent throughout the saga, the former attempting to kill his son. Egill Skallagrímsson himself is described in the saga as attacking opponents with his teeth, ripping out another berserker's jugular vein during a duel. Patently, violence and gruesome tragedies permeate the berserker ethos described in Icelandic sagas such as this one.

I firgured that it's a bit over the top, even for Beorn.

[Alfirin]

I always just assumed that Beorn along with his sons and the rest of the Beornings were the third age remmnants and decendants of the House of Beor. Obviosly Beorn isnt a dircet decendent of Beren, but there were probably other members of the House. Also my Silmarillion momory is a bit rusty but wasnth there a bit about all of Beren's folk having the skin chaging ability, with Beren just been better at it?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I always just assumed that Beorn along with his sons and the rest of the Beornings were the third age remmnants and decendants of the House of Beor. Obviosly Beorn isnt a dircet decendent of Beren, but there were probably other members of the House. Also my Silmarillion momory is a bit rusty but wasnth there a bit about all of Beren's folk having the skin chaging ability, with Beren just been better at it?

Was that power Beren's? I can only recall two instances of his form changing. By Felegund's arts they both took on the appearance of orcs, and with Lúthien's power he took of shape of the wolf Draugluin.

[The Might]

I don't believe there is any indication that the Beornings were descendants of Beor, although the names are similar.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

it's possible that Beorn had a distant ancestor descended from some Maia of Orome or Yavanna

Now, whose Maia was Radagast/Aiwendil? Wasn't he Yavanna's (as I seem to remember)?
Were the Istari required to stay celibatary? Probably yes, but how do we know that Radagast (who is described as a failure in almost every other respect) staid true to his orders?
So maybe Beorn's shape-shifting ability was not something learned from Radagast, but inherited from him? And if the fateful mating had taken place far enough back in time (say, a couple of centuries), Beorn wouldn't remember him as his ancestor, but just as a wizard he'd met once or twice upon a time...

[Gordis]

I simply loved this theory, Pitchwife! Ingenious.

It reminds me of the debate on the werewolves: there is an idea that they were all Gorthaur's children/cubs - when he assumed a wolf-form himself and showed his attentions to female wolves.

Not that I believe this to be true...

On the other hand, I don't believe that shape-shifting is simply a spell that can be learned by anyone. Remember, the Maia Sauron lost his own ability to shape-shift after the Downfall. If it were but a simple spell, he would have found it, undoubtedly. But it must have been his own inherent ability as a Maia.

We are not even expressly told that the Istari had this ability themselves. The words that Rhadagast "was a master of shapes and changes of hue" are a bit ambigous and might be part of the earlier conception (see below). Saruman surely could look like Gandalf, if he wished so, but it was more like disguise than true shape-shifting. There is no indication that Gandalf could shape-shift. In fact, I am sure he couldn't - otherwise he wouldn't need Eagles to fly. and Shadowfax to ride.

I believe that in early Tolkien's writings (Lay of Leithian, Tale of Beren and Luthien, the Hobbit, and even the beginning of LOTR), shape-shifting was considered no big deal, a rather simple thing to do. Not only Sauron and Turingwethil could shape-shift, but also Luthien and Finrod, Beren, Beorn and his people, Radagast, the nazgul (who in the drafts assumed the shape of giant vultures). But then, while Tolkien was writing the Return of the King, he greatly restricted the shape-shifting ability, leaving it maybe for only the strongest Maiar and Valar. Nazgul assuredly lost the ability to shape-shift, and I think the Istari and Sauron lost it at this point as well.

Yet as the two first volumes of LOTR were likely already in print, Tolkien failed to edit some remnants of the earlier ideas. I think the words about Radagast are among these. But the worst bug is left in TT:

Gandalf: “For he was a Nazgul, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. […]But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad.

[The Might]

Nice find there, Gordis!

And also in LotR I cannot recall any time when the Beornings are mentioned as shapeshifters, but only as good, valiant Men with high tolls and not very fond of Dwarves, still keeping the High Pass open. Also, several times the connection to the Eotheod, the Bardings and the Woodmen is mentioned, moving thus into the direction of normal descent rather than explanations like Gandalf's in the Hobbit.

Who knows? Maybe we won't find out what Tolkien really thought of the Beornings, for as he says in letter 187:

... while many like you demand maps, others wish for geological indications rather than places; many want Elvish grammars, phonol*ogies, and specimens; some want metrics and prosodies.... Musicians want tunes, and musical notation; archaeologists want ce*ramics and metallurgy; botanists want a more accurate description of the mallorn, of elanor, niphredil, alfirin, mallos, and symbelmynë, historians want more details about the social and political structure of Gondor; general enquirers want information about the Wainriders, the Harad, Dwarvish origins, the Dead Men, the Beornings, and the missing two wizards (out of five).

And as he had said in the letter 160:

I am not now at all sure that the tendency to treat the whole thing as a kind of vast game is really good – certainly not for me who find that kind of thing only too fatally attractive. It is, I sup*pose, a tribute to the curious effect that a story has, when based on very elaborate and detailed workings, of geography, chronology, and language, that so many should clamour for sheer "information," or "lore."

He didn't necessarily set out to explain everything with a lot of details, and I believe in some other place he says that secrets and unexplainable things belong to this fantastic age his stories take place in.

But, a clear tendency towards simple men, related to other groups in the area and without any great powers, can be noticed.


As for your idea Pitchwife, it is a nice idea but somehow seems fairly unlikely especially considering Radagast's peculiar habits. He loved birds and beasts and the only thing he could maybe fall in love with was a Goldberry-like nature spirit, a spirit rather symbolising animals than plants. I just can't seem him having a romance with a simple woman of the mountains.

[Gordis]

Hmm... I thought Pitchwife was suggesting Radagast's romance with a she-bear, not a comely woman of the mountains....

[The Might]

Wait... what?
No, I thought with some woman.
Maia + Bear = Magician ?!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

The possibility of the Beornings being descended of Radagast... now, that's an interesting thought. I'm still too flu muddled to want to go digging out and digging through the HoME books to find the reference, but I believe that somewhere in it is the statement that the longer the Ainur remained in a specific hroa, and the more they followed the ways of the hroa -- eating, drinking, and especially reproducing -- the more they became bound to flesh and could not easily return to their original state, or shift to another shape. That was part of Melkor's problem, and it would also appear to be part of why Melian was never the same after she left her body when Thingol died. The Istari are something of an unusual situation, since the particular bodily state in which they existed in the Third Age was imposed on them as a condition of their mission, and were real bodies, not the self-incarnate bodies a Maia would make to appear to and interact with the Eruhini. I would expect that the effects of being in that kind of hroa would not be quite the same as the effects of being in a self-incarnate fana/hroa, and thus would have different limitations. Some, we know, were quite profound, specifically designed and intended to limit their powers so that they would not be tempted to dominate and force the wills of the Children by their own might revealed. But I suppose it might be possible that Radagast/Aiwendil (who was indeed a Maia of Yavanna) had found ways to use the abilities of changing shape and hue early on in their mission, was good at it, and thus got a reputation. If he, as a shape-shifter (also early on), wandering the woods and wilds as a bear, had met a human woman with whom he had... er... relations (as a human, not as a bear), they might have had a child to whom he was able to teach the way of shape-shifting. It often seems as if Tolkien felt that when mortals and immortals had offspring, they would, unless other grace was granted, be mortal rather than immortal. Elwing was not considered an immortal Elf, nor was Earendil until they were granted the grace to choose. I don't know that there's any specific statement as to whether or not Dior and his other children would have been counted as mortal or immortal. In any case, if the son of Aiwendil and Unnamed Mortal Woman had children with anorther mortal woman, and his son or daughter did, etc. the line would eventually become rather like the Dunedain in the Third Age, longer lived than other men, with certain unusual gifts (like Aragorn's healing), but mortal Men nonetheless. A scenario like this could also explain why Radagast fell away from his mission, became enamored of Middle-earth, and apparently dwindled to the point that his heart was there, and he lost the yearning to return to Valinor. By having a child, he tied himself to that physical, limited, mortal world, and there he would stay.

It's another thought, anyway.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Might

Wait... what?
No, I thought with some woman.
Maia + Bear = Magician ?!

Maia+bear=werebear.
Maia+wolf=werewolf
Maia+worm=wereworm


Ibrin - great post - and quite sound reasoning.

[Pitchwife]

Ibrin, I'm really flattered (and impressed, too, as you were still 'flu-muddled'!) to see how much thought and erudition you spent trying to make sense of an idea that occurred to me in the mental haze of an extended New Year's hangover!

Actually, I hadn't quite decided myself whether I was thinking of Radagast + mortal human woman or Radagast-bear + mortal she-bear. Reconsidering, I tend to thinking that the Istari being permanently incarnate (as opposed to 'clad') in human shape would probably preclude any genuine (as opposed to illusionary) shape-shifting, but if my theory is supposed to make any sense at all, it must have been the way you explained. Respect!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Thank you. It would seem to me that Radagast+normal female bear would not be an impossibility, but I rather think Tolkien would have balked at it. It feels to me more "mythological" for the mother to have been a human woman, as I can recall at least one Greek myth in which Zeus went to a mortal woman (Europa, I believe) in the form of a bull (though I don't believe they had relations while he was still in that form. Maybe they did. Will have to look it up). I believe there are other myths about various gods coming to women as one creature or another, with resulting unusual children. It just felt like a more logical connection (though how much logic can be applied to myth is certainly subject to debate ).

[Pitchwife]

Well, if you go for the mythological feeling, that would mean Radagast-bear + mortal woman. The poor girl!

[The Might]

This discussion is taking a turn for the funny!

Indeed, in mythology it often happens that men charm the ladies as a beautiful -insert animal here- and then procreate.
In one really extreme myth this happened:

After he ascended the throne of Crete, Minos struggled with his brothers for the right to rule. Minos prayed to Poseidon to send him a snow-white bull, as a sign of approval. He was to sacrifice the bull in honor of Poseidon but decided to keep it instead because of its beauty. To punish Minos, Poseidon caused Pasiphaë, Minos' wife, to fall madly in love with the bull from the sea, the Cretan Bull. She had Daedalus, the famous architect, make a wooden cow for her. Pasiphaë climbed into the decoy in order to copulate with the white bull. The offspring of their coupling was a monster called the Minotaur. ~ From Wikipedia

Ok, so this is really extreme. I don't think Tolkien ever picture some woman building herself a wooden bear for any recreational purposes, and I doubt that any bestiality was involoved in his thoughts.

And I still doubt that Radagast was the type to fall in love with women... he was after all so in love with beasts, remember?!