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12-08-2008, 10:11 PM | #1 | ||||||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Future nazgûl: good or evil Men?
This thread has branched off this discussion on the nature of the Rings we had here
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Last edited by Gordis; 12-08-2008 at 11:56 PM. |
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12-08-2008, 10:15 PM | #2 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Last edited by Gordis; 12-09-2008 at 12:01 AM. |
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12-08-2008, 11:10 PM | #3 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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I find it hard to sympathize with either the Nazgûl betrayed by the Nine, or the Dwarves who possessed the Seven.
Morthoron seems to overall have the right of this. The desire of power beyond one's innate abilities is never represented as a wholly positive virtue in Tolkien's world. He said as much in Letter # 131: Quote:
I don't think Men, however, were more vulnerable to 'avarice' then the Dwarves. It is stated that inflaming their desire for wealth was the only power exercised over the Dwarves by the Seven. Their 'immunity' to the other effects of the Rings though, was only due to their fundamental makeup and not something they were able to consciously effect. Even the Three were not completely 'good': they too enhanced the powers of the possessor, but it seems the Elves were able to use the Three because they were somewhat protected from corruption by the unnatural power they had gained by the underlying purposes of them: preservation and healing, as stated by Gordis. The Nine and Seven had no such redeeming qualities, and could have been nothing but what they were: instruments of Sauron to aid in his dominion of ME. I hope I didn't miss something important from the other thread. That's a lot of posts.
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12-09-2008, 12:03 AM | #4 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Actually this passage by Gandalf reads like a lament for someone he knew well; one even gets an impression that Gandalf speaks as first-hand witness. And as written, it was exactly the case. This is a very old element of the story, as can be gleaned from the drafts published in HOME 6. Originally, all the wizards were Men, not Maiar, and the Wizard-King (Witch-King in the published story) was "the most powerful of the wizards of Men", Gandalf's boss. Most likely, Gandalf referred to him in this passage, having been witness to his fall to the Ring. Now, in the published story, Gandalf, of course, is a Maia who came to ME about three thousand years after the nazgul had become wraiths. Yet the passage remains as it was written. Quote:
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Tolkien explains in L#246: Quote:
When choosing a Ringwraith Sauron had to consider two things: 1.The importance of the country the nazgul represented, which would get an immortal leader and would most likely be also enthralled to Sauron for all eternity. 2.The value of the man himself. Here he could go for an outstanding man even if he wasn't bringing his country along with him - an able sorcerer or an outstanding warrior, who merited to be given one of the nine Rings and become an immortal servant of the Dark Lord. Evil or good intentions of the future nazgul are immaterial in all this - whoever they were at the start they would turn evil anyway. And the best servants would be Men of integrity, originally noble and good. Like Isildur. Or Aragorn. Or Boromir. By the way, Morthoron, I have read your "Tales of a Dark Continent". Great story, great settings - I loved it. But you know, your Cui-Baili had all the makings of a nazgul, if Sauron only managed to thrust a Ring on him. He was a great man, ruler of a great country, he had enough problems to wish for some additional power. Strange that Sauron let pass such a golden opportunity. Khamul, by contrast, as you depict him, was not much of a prize - why waste a ring on such a scoundrel? Such like are ten a penny in every generation. |
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12-09-2008, 12:09 AM | #5 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Otherwise, one would have been handy for Ar-Pharazon. Last edited by Gordis; 12-09-2008 at 01:02 AM. |
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12-09-2008, 12:41 AM | #6 | ||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Morthoron replied:
Here is what Morthoron replied to the previous post
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12-09-2008, 02:40 AM | #7 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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1. Our ability to sympathize with characters varies greatly. You find it hard to feel sympathy for the Nine Men and the Dwarves who got the Seven, while I am able to sympathize with almost anyone: certainly the nazgul, Boromir, Denethor, Saruman, Isildur, Ar-Pharazon, and even sometimes (though it is harder) with Gollum, Grima, Lotho, the Mouth, Sauron, Morgoth and Feanor. 2. Tolkien assessment of good and evil should certainly be taken into consideration, even it it differs from our own views. Yes, for Tolkien “power” is an ominous word, and those who desire “power beyond the measure of their kind” are condemned. Also he strongly condemns hubris and impatience. He is all for humility and patience. Yet, even with these standards, I feel he is a bit partial to his characters: there are his favorite ones who get a lot forgiven. Take his good Aragorn. His goal in life? To become King of the reunited Kingdom. Isn’t it desire for power? Now as to “beyond the measure of his kind” – sorry, but he brought an army of Dead to Pelargir, to fight the living. When the Witch-King had done something similar (sent the Wights to the Barrows of Cardolan), he was universally blamed. And so on. 3. An objective view perhaps is unattainable, but we may try… Quote:
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Yet with Numenorean nazgul it had to be far harder: Sauron was the Enemy, and what is more, recently conquered enemy. Pride, if nothing else, wouldn’t allow them to listen to him readily or turn to his side willingly. I don’t believe Sauron had approached them straight-on, most likely he had come in disguise to thrust the rings upon his chosen victims. He could pose as an Elf, refugee of Eregion: “Please keep this Elven ring, Lord, it is the last of the Nine…Sauron hunts me, but he mustn’t get it,” or he could invent another scheme. Sauron was very clever and very sly. The fact that the Elves chose to keep all the matter of the Rings secret from their allies the Numenoreans did help Sauron’s designs a lot. A timely warning from the Elves could have alerted the future nazgul, but then again, the Elves had no idea about Sauron’s new plan to give rings to other races. They didn’t know Men were in danger. Quote:
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I have to go, I will reply to Morthoron later… |
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12-09-2008, 08:51 AM | #8 | ||||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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My, for never having posted on this thread, I certainly have many posts here. Gordis, I name thee Lord of the Cut and Paste. Instead of Rings, you'll be handing out scissors.
Now, back to what I was saying, or at least trying to imply. Sauron, in a mephistophelian manner, beguiles and plays upon inherent character flaws of each of the races (Elves, Dwarves and Men). The Elves eventually prove to be incorruptible, but were, nevertheless, naive at best, or at worst overambitious and greedy, and welcomed Annatar; that is, Celebrimbor and Smiths of Eregion did. Wiser and more calculating Elves such as Gil-Galad and Galadriel seemed to have asked the simple question: 'Annatar, just who in the Angband are you?' This is one of those annoying little points that is rarely discussed on these and other fora. Did some of the Elves so lack common sense that they accepted Annatar without reservation? I mean, really, many of the Elves in the 2nd Age had lived in Aman previously, and were intimate with both the Valar and Maiar. Isn't it odd that no Eregion Elf asked, 'Ummm...dude, like, I never saw you boogie-boarding Taniquetil, and, like, I didn't catch you at any frat-parties at Ezellohar. What, were you like hangin' with Irmo in Lorien in, like, a dream state or sumptin?' The warnings were there. Other Elves eschewed Annatar's advances. Was it naivety then, or was it (and this seems more likely) a character flaw in Celebrimbor? It would seem the curse of Mandos was visited on the clan of Feanor down to its last generation. Blind ambition, loving too well the work of one's hands, vanity, conceit -- these are the hallmark of the Feanorians, and Sauron found in these traits the method by which he could control the Noldor of Eregion. Of the Nine and the Seven, I believe you can lump them together into the 'Sinful Sixteen', as they really did not have separate traits; rather, Sauron merely divided them up according to his designs, playing on the character flaws inherent in the Dwarves (avarice) and Men (lust for power as well as greed): Quote:
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 12-09-2008 at 09:10 AM. |
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12-09-2008, 09:27 AM | #9 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Stepping in here without having read all the precursor posts and threads . . . (a danger, I know! )
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After all, eventually even Frodo succumbed to the One Ring.
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12-09-2008, 06:45 PM | #10 | |
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And he refused it at first or tried to give it away afterwards on several occasions. The danger for Sauron is a highly-principled man of virtue returning the ring to the Elves, where it would be lost to the Dark Lord. As Tolkien said, Sauron only he had nine to dole out, he had to do it judiciously.
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12-10-2008, 07:59 AM | #11 | |||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Morthoron:
Let us look again at the quotes (the emphasis mine): Quote:
What happened next? They had a very long life that seemed unending: Quote:
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Now to Aragorn and Faramir. Aragorn desired power and victory: I bet he was tempted by the Ring no less than Boromir. But his case was special - he was Elrond's foster-son and Gandalf's pupil. He must have been warned again and again not to touch the Ring: taught on Isildur's example. Faramir was of another ilk - a bit Bombadil-ish, so to say. He had zero hubris just by nature. In Elros's line such guys (loremasters by calling, not rulers or warriors) happen occasionally: Vardamir Nolimon, Aldarion's father Tar-Meneldur, maybe also Tar-Minastir. These guys would be tempted by the rings of power far less, no doubt, than their more warlike, adventurous, proud and power-hungry relatives (Tar-Aldarion, Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir, Isildur etc.). I wouldn't call the latter evil and even flawed: it is just another temperament. And yes, because of it they make greater Kings and better nazgul. I doubt Sauron would even try to slip a Ring to a quiet loremaster: what for? To have one ring less and the boring wraith of the quiet loremaster studying manuscripts in the next room in Barad-Dur for all eternity? Quote:
As for Galadriel… Sauron had tortured and killed her brother Finrod, fed him to the wolves. Yet for a thousand years she wore the Ring made by Sauron's design, with his know-how. The desire to tweak nature for her own ends was too strong. Quote:
Last edited by Gordis; 12-10-2008 at 08:23 AM. |
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12-10-2008, 01:34 PM | #12 |
Illusionary Holbytla
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It seems to me that there is an underemphasis in this thread on Sauron's ability to deceive people. The future-Nazgul could very well have been just, decent Men, deceived by Sauron into believing good of the Rings. Sauron at this point emphasized his reputation as a gift giver; the rings could no doubt have been presented as kingly gifts, able to extend the abilities, wisdom, etc. of the bearer. Not unlike the fruit in the garden of Eden, right?
If you accept the premise that no one in Middle-earth was perfect (and I think everyone would), this implies that everyone has some kind of fault that Sauron could have appealed to and that the Rings could have worked on. In fact, the Rings probably could have turned even virtues into faults! Take a king who desired to rule justly and well, who may have had a group of insurgents on his hands... presented in the right way, a ring might seem a desirable tool indeed! It would be taken with a desire to work good, but the man would become trapped and twisted - that desire to rule well might turn into sheer desire for power thus leading to tyranny. (cf. the reasoning of Gandalf and Galadriel in refusing the One Ring from Frodo). I doubt that there are many Men who, understanding the full powers and implications of the Nine, would have taken a Ring. So Sauron didn't tell them everything. He told them exactly what he thought they wanted or needed to hear... luring, threatening, lying, whatever. Note the word "ensnare" in the original quote. He trapped them, tricked them, though at the time they all perhaps thought themselves fully willing. I'm not saying that the future-Nazgul were necessarily good men... but they weren't necessarily evil either. They could easily have been either, and probably there was a mix of both. Was Boromir evil? By no means! Yet I could easily see him as the sort of person that Sauron might have sought out with one of the Nine had he lived a couple thousand years earlier. And for those of you who enjoy the fan fiction-y side of things, I can't resist a plug... this is possibly my favorite RPG of all the ones I've written in, about the fall of Khamul: Shadow of the West. |
12-10-2008, 03:03 PM | #13 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Firefoot, I agree wholly with everything you have said.
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Also this interpretation of Khamul seems more in accordance with the portrait of the nazgul in LOTR. Khamul in LOTR seems to be a very patient being: both the Gaffer and Maggot had been quite rude to him, yet he let them live. Had he been a bloodthirsty monster in life, at least Maggot's head could have been chopped off without any repercussions... Last edited by Gordis; 12-10-2008 at 07:55 PM. |
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12-10-2008, 05:00 PM | #14 |
Illusionary Holbytla
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We ran out of writers at the end...
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12-10-2008, 09:27 PM | #15 | ||||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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And Gordis, the words 'sorceror' and 'sorcery' are always used by Tolkien in a negative sense, meaning 'black arts' and most often 'necromancy'. I have not seen one instance in Tolkien's writing where 'sorceror' has a positive meaning.
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12-11-2008, 01:37 AM | #16 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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When he wished so, the Morgul Lord could send a whole army flying in terror, and the other nazgul could unman Gondorians just by shrieking overhead. And don't try to persuade me that Khamul didn't have enough fighting skills to kill an anarmed hobbit farmer. He simply chose not to (for the reasons you stated), which proves he could control his temper. The guard of Rangers at the Sarn Ford had been exterminated by the nazgul. As for Aragorn at Weathertop, he was most surprised himself when the nazgul withdrew: " I cannot think why they have gone and do not attack again," he said. He didn't know that Frodo happened to have the only type of blade perilous for the Witch-King and nearly killed him. (RC, the Hunt for the Ring). Quote:
Last edited by Gordis; 12-11-2008 at 01:41 AM. |
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12-11-2008, 07:22 AM | #17 | ||||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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And with that, I think I'll bow out of this conversation, having reached the point where the phrase 'agree to disagree' becomes apparent.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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12-12-2008, 03:49 AM | #18 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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*Bows back*. Thank you, we have had a fine discussion. |
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12-12-2008, 05:53 PM | #19 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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*The Dark Elf bows in return*
Oh, the pleasure was all mine. Definitely a worthwhile and informative dialogue.
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