Sauron, devoted servant of Melkor?

[lore_master]

If Sauron HAD the power, do you think he would have released Melkor from the void?

personally i think that Sauron had grown to accustom to power and did not want to become sencond in command again

[Inziladun]

You're probably right. By the time of the War of the Ring, Sauron's pride had grown to the point where he likely considered himself nearly Morgoth's equal. Like you, I don't think he would have willingly placed himself under Morgoth again.

[davem]

Tolkien does state that while Morgoth wanted to destroy Ea, reduce it to chaos, Sauron wanted absolute control - as we see in the War of the Ring, the people of the West are fighting to avoid becoming slaves, not to avoid becoming corpses.

This being the case, I'd say that the last thing Sauron would consider doing is releasing this being who wants to wreck his plans for world domination! Sauron would make use of the memory/idea of Morgoth - as in Numenor, & also of the remnants of his evil spread throughout Arda (the idea that the whole of Arda is Morgoth's 'Ring', the object that he pours his evil into) to make his own rise to power easier, but I think that's as far as it went. I don't think Sauron had any concept of loyalty!

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I agree that Sauron is treacherous and megalomaniac, but can he be convinced that the Valar would not invade Middle-Earth again? Consider that in the Second Age, Sauron did not have sufficient strength to conquer every single race. The Numenoreans came to the aid of the Elves and, together with allied dwarves, drove Sauron to a corner. And Numenoreans are just Men, albeit beefed up with Wisdom and Knowledge. In the Third Age, Sauron had even more enemies to contend with: the Istari.

The Valar send the Istari (Maia) because they felt that a Maia should be dealt with be other Maia. But if Sauron obtained the Ring, he would have dominated or destroyed all of the Istari. By that time, I am sure that the Valar would have found him too much of a nuisance, and would just hog-tie him and throw him into space to accompany his boss.

Besides, depending on which version you read, Morgoth's will was said to be able to creep back to Middle-Earth to cause some mischief. Personally, I am of the opinion that Morgoth's Will/Spirit/Psychic power had secretly urged Sauron's subconscious to muster the Evil powers and try to release him. Consider: when Sauron was a captive on Numenor, he led the Numenoreans to worship Morgoth, even though he could have easily distanced himself with the 'jailbird of Mandos'. (And thus setup a cult to worship only himself)

No, I feel that sooner or later, Sauron would have released Morgoth from the void, if not for loyalty, than for fear of the Valar. Sauron have seem the destruction in the First Age, and he would probably have known that he would be cast out ultimately if he do not find someone who can contest with the Valar. (And even Morgoth is a poor choice, considering that he is only one against so many of the Valar)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It is hard to say how independent Sauron was from Morgoth. If we consider Sauron a separate evil power from Morgoth then I doubt he would have tried to release Morgoth. However, if Morgoth still had a 'hold' on Sauron then it is easy to see that Sauron would always have that temptation to try and release his former master.

On a side note, could Sauron have released Morgoth anyway? Was he capable.?

[davem]

Yes, but if Morgoth comes back, Sauron loses his only chance of ruling the world, beause Morgoth is so filled with hatred of Illuvatar's creation that he will seek to destroy it completely. Sauron's essential nature drives him to seek total control of everything. The Ring is designed for 'control & coercion' of all things. Morgoth would become Sauron's enemy if he returned. The two of them couldn't coexist - though they might end up destroying each other! But that's not to say that if he had found it possible, & if backed into a corner, his fear would not have proved strongest, & he would have released Morgoth, on the principle of 'If I can't have the world, no-one's going to have it & I'll bring back Morgoth to finish it off'. But that would, among other things, require him to wait till Earendel was napping.

I suspect that Sauron used Morgoth as an idea/symbol in Numenor. Effectively the Numenoreans did worship Sauron, because as 'High Priest' of Morgoth his word would be law.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I guess that would be a matter of perspective then.

If Sauron had sufficient power to stand against BOTH Morgoth and the Valar... that is a foregone conclusion.

If Sauron had power to release Morgoth but no power to stand against the Valar... He might comtemplate releasing Morgy if he see the Valar landing on his shores.

If Sauron had power to release Morgoth and the power to stand against the Valar... Poor Morgy...

But Sauron could not possibly stand against the Valar unless his powers can grow like a tree. (Neither could Morgy) And in a typical Prof T setting, you will find that 'Evil do not prosper' is written in every corner.

[Sharkû]

A mostly very good discussion of this topic can be found here: Sauron's Goal and the Dagor Dagorath.
(And by that I mean of course that you should read my long post there )

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Would the Valar really attack Sauron, as they had with Morgoth? I don't think so. Why? They'd risk sinking the entire North-west of Middle-earth! They know their powers, and it's not suited for such a place. Violent upheavals of the tectonic plates - jk - have resulted from the battles fought by the Ainur on Middle-earth.

Sauron knows all this, or at least he'd seen enough evidence to dispel any notions of an attack from Valinor. So he's probably use Morgoth as symbol for men under his own dominion, if fear of him is not enough to sway their convictions that evil is...well...good. That's probably all the purpose Sauron had for Morgoth.

[Firefoot]

I don't think Sauron would release Morgoth because if Sauron wanted world dominion (which he did) he would not be able to get it with the more powerful Morgoth standing in his way. Sauron would be reduced to "most powerful servant" again rather than "the Dark Lord." I think that Sauron would prefer the latter.

Here's an interesting thought.

For with the consent of Eru they [the Valar] sent members of their own high order...

Would Eru have let the Valar attack Sauron? It seems from this quote from UT "The Istari" that the Valar needed Eru's "permission" to send the Istari to M-e. So even if the Valar might have gone to M-e to go against Sauron (I don't think they would), I don't think Eru would "allow" them to. The Valar wanted the peoples of M-e to learn to cope on their own, which is why they sent the Istari.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Well, if Sauron do not fear the Valar even though he witnessed the destruction of the First Age, then he is probably blind...

Even if Sauron do not fear the Valar, he would have realised that the Illuvator would probably step in to weed him out. Eru destroyed an entire land to vend his wrath against the corrupt Numenoreans. If the need arise, Eru could probably stage another 'Noah and the Flood' incident just to destroy Sauron, and why not?

But then, I don't really believe that Sauron could either maintain his power over Arda, or gather sufficient strength to release Morgoth. Politics at the point of a spear is tiring work...

[davem]

But Numenor was destroyed because of the behaviour of the Numenoreans, not the behaviour of Sauron. To destroy the whole of the West of ME because of Sauron would perhaps have been a little unreasonable. One tends to lose respect for a deity that goes around destroying millions of people just to get rid of his enemies!

Having said that, Illuvatar had proven that he was willing to use the 'ultimate deterent', so Sauron probably knew that if he did manage to corrupt or totally dominate Me Illuvatar probably would have intervened to stop him. Which brings up the question we've just been playing around with in the Doom of Doriath thread - if only Men are not bound by the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else (which presumably includes Maiar within Arda) how much freedom of action did Sauron have? Is it that Illuvatar has to intervene, as with Numenor, when a course of action requires a change to be made which is outside the Music, a change which even the Valar cannot make, being bound by the Music themselves?

But that would mean that in terms of freedom of action, Men are freer than the Valar, & so, in a sense, more powerful, but .....

(Sorry, but that needs thinking about!)

[Eorl of Rohan]

Originally posted by davem
if only Men are not bound by the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else (which presumably includes Maiar within Arda) how much freedom of action did Sauron have?

I was thinking about this matter a while back. Only MEN had the power to change the world to their own will even above the will of Valar, and certainly not Morgoth or Sauron.

Men learned the craft of flight, (airplanes) while Morgoth never learned to fly though he cut off the wings of Thronhoth, people of Sorontur Eagles. It is not ordained that MEN should fly, not in Iluvatar's music, but we made it. But Melkor could not, because Morgoth was one of Ainur. And Sauron would not be more stronger then his master Melkor, he who arises in might, would he?

Does that make any sense?

[davem]

It makes sense to me. Illuvatar says in Ainulindale that none may change the Music in his despite, so, any changes would have to be Divinely 'approved', but He 'authorises' men to make changes, which he doesn't even allow the Valar to do. So the Valar are not the same as the Pagan 'gods', but more like Angels, doing Illuvatar's will only, & not able to defy it or change it (meaning that even Melkor & Sauron have only the illusion of freedom). So that would mean that men are given true freedom, when Valar, Maiar & Elves are not. The Valar's role seems to be only to actualise the themes of the Music.

So, because the Fall of Numenor & the re-shaping of the World was not in the original Music (we assume), & was brought about by the rebellion of Men as a result of their freedom, the Valar cannot deal with it, & it has to be brought about by Illuvatar, who is not bound by the Music & can change it. In other words, any change in the Music requires the Valar to lay down their governance of Arda.

Conclusion: Illuvatar has absolute freedom to act to change the world, Men have freedom to act beyond the dictates of the Music, if permitted to do so by Illuvatar, who has to 'allow' or 'disallow' their choices, & the Valar & Elves' role is to try & actualise the themes of the Music.

Unless I'm completely wrong in my interpretation

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I think Sauron would have realised Morgoth from the Void, We don’t know if he knew that Melko wanted to completely destroy Eá. I don’t think he would have joined him in the first place if he did, Sauron was promised to ruler over much of the world, so that would seem to be the incentive for him to become evil. I still think he was faithful to Morgoth as in Numenor he tyres to persuade them to worship him, as he says;

His name is Melkor, Lord of All, giver of freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they.
Found in "The Silmarillion" Akallabéth

It would seem that even after his master's downfall, he was willing to do anything to get him back. Sauron perhaps realised how powerful Melkor was and so though that if he was going to take over, then he'd need Melkor to do it. Perhaps that is why he made the one ring, to try and increase his own power as he was robbed of Melkor.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it’s the best explanation I could think of for the actual making of the ring. Look at it from Sauron's point of view, he'd think to himself
"Without Melkor I need more power, Why not make a ring? Why not go mad?"

I know a lot of this has been said, but this is what i think. Using Melkor as a symbol seems unlikely. Whether it was at this point or not, but I think its Gandalf who says;

The only measure known to Sauron is desire, desire for power...

This shows that Sauron would probably try to get power at any cost, even if that meant becoming second best for a time. I suspect that, soon enough, he would have devised a plan to over through Melkor, as Sauron was a cunning little Miar, so If he had released Morgoth (If he realised there was no other way he could win) he would have planned to overthrow him once he had done the hard work for him... what an evil little creature he is. >=D.

[Orcrist]

morgoth and melkor are the same person right? sorry i still have to read the silmarillion

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

And Ar-Pharazôn said: "Who is this Lord of Darkness?"
Then...Sauron spoke to the King...saying: "...his name is Melkor..."

(The Silmarillion, Akallabêth - emphasis mine)

Sauron had more purpose for Morgoth outside Arda than in it. Very, very clever...

So still, Sauron wants Morgoth where he is, not running wild all over Middle-earth. It could very well wreck his plans.

[doug*platypus]

First of all, I don't believe that Sauron actually needed Morgoth to return. He was in a pretty good position throughout the Second and Third Ages. True, he did need to create the One Ring, which eventually provided the means to destroy him, but it was only at the very end that this weakness was exploited. Sauron did not have to deal with the foes that Morgoth had in the First Age: heroes like Fingolfin, Beren, Húrin, Finrod by the dozens, and Noldor by the thousands (at least). Sauron was more than up to the challenge of dominating men, through the use of both other men and fearsome spirits such as the Nazgûl, and there were relatively few powerful Eldar to oppose him.

Secondly, I don't believe Sauron had the loyalty to feel an obligation to release his (former?) master. In the example of Ossë and Ulmo we see the nature of the relationship between the Valar and their Maiar. It is not one of complete servitude or devotion, at least not in all instances. Curumo and Sauron both defied Aulë, and even Olórin was not completely faithful to Lórien, preferring to consort with Nienna instead.

So my answer is NO, Sauron would not have released Morgoth from the Void, and had no intention of trying. And I bet that's the first thing Morgoth brings up when they meet again after Sauron's departure from Middle-Earth! That is where Sauron was sent, right?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

We can only assume that Sauron was sent to the void after his downfall. Saruman too. but that has been discussed elsewhere.

As you say, If Sauron was sent to the void, he would first deal with Saurman's tertiary (This is all assuming that they were al sent together into the void) and then would he would have to worry about Melkor's judgement on him. So this whole topic is based on the assumption that Sauron could bring Melko back, so he would have to suffer the consequences that Melkor would throw at him (That’s if there is any thing to throw in the void). Although, If sauron had realised that Frodo was bout to destroy the ring and there was nothing he could do about it, he may have brought Melkor back as a last resort.

[HerenIstarion]

Two points:

1. Sauron believed himself to be actual reincarnation of Morgoth by the end.
2. As both him and Saruman were the maiar of Arda - i.e. under same restrictions as Valar (so bound to the world until its end), they were not thurst into the void (for it is special act, as is the case with Morgoth) after their death, but simply dissolved, and degenerated down to the ghost level

[ArathorofBarahir]

OH absolutely! If Sauron had the power he would have released Melkor from the void without even thinking about it. Because once he did the two would have been invincible.

[Thorongil]

But how would it be possible for Sauron to release Morgoth? Could a Maia change the doings of the Valar? I thought the Valar was supposed to be superior to the Maiar. So if Sauron would or would not release Morgoth doesn't matter in my opinion.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Thorongil, we are speaking hypothetically.

I personally am in two minds about this. On the one hand, Sauron's desire was for power and ruler ship, which was how Morgoth corrupted him. But on the other, If Sauron realised that he could not do the deed on his own he would have released Morgoth.

But as you said, Thorongil, How he would do this we cannot say, perhaps send a Nazgul to kill Earendill or something... But that’s not the point.

As to the original question, I don't believe he would've done so. Sauron was pretty fixed upon world domination and as already stated, Morgoth would've seriously upset his agenda.

Even though he learned everything evil from Morgoth, he would've betrayed him. Who's to say he wasn't doing that even when Morgoth was still free?

Could he have done without the Valar knowing?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

If Sauron possessed the power to go into the void and fetch Morgoth from it, he would have been more powerful than Morgoth, or any of the Valar for that matter, and it would have been inevitable that the Valar would deal with him themselves if he was so mighty.

Personally, I don't think there would be any way Sauron would do anything more than use Morgoth's name. The Men of Numenor were honest and true, and probably not easily deceived. If Sauron wanted to trick Ar-Pharazon into waging war on the Valar he needed a legitimate story to tell him, and what better way to secure the success of his own diabolical plan then to use the name of Melkor, which if they looked, the historians could presumably actually find something on about how he rivalled the Valar in strength and power.

After he was defeated by Huan, Sauron fled into the east and did not show up again until thousands of years later, when he had begun ammassing forces in Mordor. He didn't return, he didn't give Morgoth the news of Beren and Luthien, and when he watched the Valar arrive in the War of Wrath, he nearly repented (but didn't), but didn't join his former master's forces and face utter destruction of his own self. Sauron was a traitor.

And then, he even had the gall to take his fallen former master's title as his own when his pride grew large enough. It's obvious he didn't intend on Morgoth's return - he was the Dark Lord from now on.

And like Hookbill mentioned back in the second post, Sauron didn't even have the same plans as Morgoth. Even when he worked for the lord of anarchy and evil, he was in charge of ordering and keeping everything neat. When he got his own fort after the sack of Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion, it wasn't the house of filth Angband was, it was an eerie isle of sorcery, with werewolves in the dungeons and stalking the fir forests around it.

[Lord Halsar]

I seem to remember a line in the Silmarillion that always made me think each time I read it. Though I cannot remember it exactly, I remember clearly that when the Valar attempted to destroy the temple to Melkor that Sauron had built on Numenor, he was able to stop the lightning set against its roof and the Numenorians "were amazed and thought him a god." This made me wonder, was Sauron powerful enough to halt the will of the Valar? Or was it something much less complex?

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I believe here's your quote:

Then men grew afraid. 'Behold the Eagles of the Lords of the West!' they cried. 'The Eagles of Manwe are come upon Numenor!' And they fell upon their faces.

Then some few would repent for a season, but others hardened their hearts, and they shook their fists at heaven, saying: 'The Lords of the West have plotted against us. They strike first. The next blow shall be ours!' These words the King himself spoke, but they were devised by Sauron.

Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder and it was wreathed in flame. But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would. When therefore the last cortent came they heeded it little. For the land shook under them, and a groaning as of thunder underground was mingled with the roaring of the sea, and smoke issued from the peak of the Meneltarma. But all the more did Ar-Pharazon press on with his armament

Whew... Sauron seemed to have devised a Faraday's cage and hid in it while everyone else stuck to a lightning rod... But the point of Valar attempting to kill Sauron seemed rather moot. Afterall, they relinquished their command with regard to the doings of Men. The Valar seemed to be planning to destroy Numenor and Sauron in one shot, while rescuing what could be left of the faithful.

[The Sixth Wizard]

All Sauron wanted with the Numenoreans was for the Valar to destroy them. If he truly wanted to free Morgoth, wouldn't he bide his time, corrupting more and more men until he believed he had the power to confront the Valar? For surely the full power of Numenor was never going to be matched in any Third Age scenario. Sauron would never have sent the Men to their doom if he wanted Morgoth freed.

I quite like the idea of Sauron defying the lightning of the Valar. It seems an uncharacteristically brave, lead-by-example thing to do for a Dark Lord. Maybe Sauron conjured up that particular bolt himself, to break the spirit of the Men into obedience once and for all? It was a fiery bolt and unique.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lord Halsar

I seem to remember a line in the Silmarillion that always made me think each time I read it. Though I cannot remember it exactly, I remember clearly that when the Valar attempted to destroy the temple to Melkor that Sauron had built on Numenor, he was able to stop the lightning set against its roof and the Numenorians "were amazed and thought him a god." This made me wonder, was Sauron powerful enough to halt the will of the Valar? Or was it something much less complex?

The thunderstorms, as I remember it, were an omen sent by the Valar. Another omen was clouds shaped like the eagles of Manwe. These thunderstorms were not intended to destroy the temple (wasn't the temple made of stone anyway?), or Sauron himself, rather to show the Numenorians that the path they were heading into was wrong (compare fex. with the biblical plagues in Egypt). Sauron at this time, with the One ring in his possession, was a powerful elemental force and I don't imagine him being a even a wee bit scared of a little bad weather.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

The thunderstorms, as I remember it, were an omen sent by the Valar. Another omen was clouds shaped like the eagles of Manwe. These thunderstorms were not intended to destroy the temple (wasn't the temple made of stone anyway?), or Sauron himself, rather to show the Numenorians that the path they were heading into was wrong (compare fex. with the biblical plagues in Egypt). Sauron at this time, with the One ring in his possession, was a powerful elemental force and I don't imagine him being a even a wee bit scared of a little bad weather.

Yes, this was Sauron in his prime (well, not with thousand s of orcs, but in his own power terms definately). Remember, he could still change physical form then. I don't think he was as powerful as a Vala, but he was definately quite high up on the Maia power scale.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Yes, this was Sauron in his prime (well, not with thousand s of orcs, but in his own power terms definately).

(Kudos to Eönwë)

Gee, Sauron in his prime almost meet his match upteenth times, never with a Valar:

1. Felagund (Finarfin's son)

"Then befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund which is renowned. For Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, and the power of the King was very great; but Sauron had the mastery, as is told in the Lay of Leithian"- Of Beren and Luthien, The Silmarillion.

2. A cloak

"Then Sauron spring upon Luthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breathe (Yuck). But even as he came, falling she cast a fold of her dark cloak before his eyes; and he stumbled, for a fleeting drowsiness came upon him."- Of Beren and Luthien, The Silmarillion.

He was owned, of course, by a Maia:

"But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor; and he took his foe by the throat and pinned him down. Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly."- Of Beren and Luthien, The Silmarillion.

I can't visualise that Sauron would ever gain enough strength to release Ol' Morgy, if he can't even take on a half-Maia's garment... But that aside, having rested enough from jet-lag after his holiday at Numenor, Sauron got owned by a motley crew:

'I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gilgalad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.'- The Council of Elrond, LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring.

I figured that Sauron only wanted a little sandbox of his own in Middle-Earth without any trouble from Manwe. He pro'ly shook his fists and yelled threats about letting Big Brother out if the big kids won't let him alone... Trouble is... They took his threat seriously...

"I'm TELLING!!!" - Sauron, rising in spirit form from the waves drowning Numenor.

[skip spence]

Nope, Sauron wouldn't dream of an attack on Aman. Remember, not even Morgoth would try that after his defeat in ancient times. All he could muster was the surprise groin-kick of slaying the trees, after which he ran for the (iron-) hills.