Tons o' Hobbit News

[Mister Underhill]

So as has been mentioned elsewhere, PJ and GDT did an hour-long chat and answered a load of questions and revealed a lot about their plans. There has been some speculation in a couple of threads about the content of the new films, but this infodump seemed big enough to merit its own thread.

A few highlights are here.

A complete transcript of the chat is available here.

Discuss!

[skip spence]

Interesting...

It looks like the Dol Guldur episode indeed will be delt with in the second movie.

GdT (When asked if Gandalf would be given a more active role then in the book): I believe that Gandalf is meant to be used in that way- coming and going in and out of the narrative. If anything, this creates the perfect setting for those “gaps” to be bridged by the second film…

Here's what GdT said regarding talking animals.

I think it should be done exactly as in the book- the “talking beast” motif has to exist already to allow for that great character that is Smaug. It is far more jarring to have a linear movie and then – out of the blue – a talking Dragon.

Regarding the tone of the movie:

GdT: We’ll see about the “Tra-la-la-“ later- but the book, I believe, in echoing the “loss of innocence” England experienced after WWI, is a passage from innocence to a darker, more somber state- The visual / thematic progression should reflect that in the camera style, color palette, textural choices, etc.

PJ: As I said earlier, I personally feel that The Hobbit can, and should have a different tone. The "tone" of these stories shouldn't be defined by the pressure our characters were under in LOTR. The world is a different place at the time of the Hobbit. The shadow is not so dark. However, what should stay the same is the reality of Middle-earth, and the integrity we bring to it as film makers.

GdT:...the world must feel like the same world [as in the LotR movies]. The aspect ratio, music, essential established costume and production design trademarks but I would love to bring a lot of new flavours to the table.

Looks like Del Toro wants to be faithful to the original narrative:

GdT: I am all for trying to preserve every idiosyncrasy the novel has- the very things that seem “unfilmable” and that – in my mind- will make it thrilling as a film. The novel is much, much more inventive and dislocated in its narrative (Bilbo being hit by a rock during the Battle) than you may think at first.

I wonder if he'll have to fight for this:

GdT: I may be in the minority, but I absolutely LOVE Beorn and I intend to feature him in the films.

About their first meeting:

GdT: We finished a tray of shrimps together and agreed that NEW LINE should keep hiring round, bearded directors with funny accents...

[Bêthberry]

Thanks for those links, Mister U. How fascinating to see the internet/chat used for such creative public relations. If I remember correctly, Chris Carter of XFiles fame cursed internet communities for hamstringing possibilities on the show but here PJ and GdT seem to be embracing the opportunity to develop a positive rapport. By and large, each director hit the right buttons to keep me mildly interested in what might come of this (although not to relieve my qualms over "Film 2").

GdT's explanation of his "sword and scorcery" comment is about exactly what I would expect from someone with his interest/credentials in traditional fairie.

It's also interesting to hear that he "has other plans for R[on] P[erlman]". Coming with his declared interest in the character of Beorn, one wonders . . . . And at least they didn't mention James Earl Jones as a potential candidate for Smaug's voice.

All in all, a nice bit of prepping of the fandom.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

It's dangerous to make too much from their
comments, but there seems to be some
hope that GdT is interested in being more
"faithful" to the books then PJ (especially in
TTT and ROTK). I like it that he appears to
want to keep elements/events that could have
been changed or eliminated, such as his view
of talking animals and including all of the dwarves.
Marrying his interpretations with PJ's visual success in recreating
M-E [U]could[U] lead to a quite successful interpretation.

Also, I still like the idea of "aging" Aragorn 10 years
to have his initial encounter with Arwen (or alternately)
10-year-old Aragorn chatting with his mum.

Or just have Bilbo meet young Aragorn briefly and in
the (inevitable) extended dvd Aragorn and his mother
chatting- with Agent Elrond?

And from the thread
"Christopher Tolkien: Kill HOBBIT film"

Today the film-makers will confirm that Sir Ian McKellen is returning to his role as the wizard Gandalf in The Hobbit and that Andy Serkis will reprise his role as the murderous creature Gollum.

Sir Ian Holm, who played the hobbit Bilbo Baggins in The Lord of the Rings, is expected to narrate. Viggo Mortensen has unexpectedly been asked to return as Aragorn, a character who does not appear in the original Hobbit story, published in 1937.

[Sir Kohran]

I can't say I'm happy about Aragorn returning as an adult - the whole point of the original book was that the central 'hero' is not a sword-swinging champion but a small hobbit. Also, I don't know how they'll fit him in - Aragorn was a big character in the LOTR films and for him to be included in TH in the same style will require some pretty big alterations to the story (as if Aragorn being an adult wasn't already).

That said, him being there as a child is a good idea.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I guess I'm not the only one who thought the wargs could be given a different treatment. And it is encouraging to find that GDT is concerned with staying faithful to the book. But that said, I leave you with the following I heard recently...

"No two persons ever read the same book." ~Edmund Wilson

Now that is something to keep in mind!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Guillermo del Toro

Tolkien wrote 13 dwarves and I intend to use 13 dwarves. I am, in fact, thrilled to keep them all and have them be distinguishable and affecting as characters. Much of the drama and emotion in the last third of the book and film will come from them.

I am so relieved.

This might interest many people:

Originally Posted by Gullermo del Toro

Therefore what can be saidis: Unequivocally, every single actor that originated a role in the Trilogy will be asked to participate and reprise it. If Health, availability or willigness become obstacles – and only in that case recasting would be considered.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

I can't say I'm happy about Aragorn returning as an adult - the whole point of the original book was that the central 'hero' is not a sword-swinging champion but a small hobbit. Also, I don't know how they'll fit him in - Aragorn was a big character in the LOTR films and for him to be included in TH in the same style will require some pretty big alterations to the story (as if Aragorn being an adult wasn't already).

That said, him being there as a child is a good idea.

Bear in mind that the two ME movies will be filmed together. The return of Viggo doesn't nessesarly mean he will feature in The Hobbit and I don't think he will either. The character Aragorn as a young adult will however certainly feature heavily in the second "bridge"-movie.

[Sauron the White]

I think that is right. Aragorn is not involved in HOBBIT and if you go by what Del Toro said, probably will not be in the film. I do see him playing a major role in the Gollum story in film 2. And depending on negotiations with Orlando Bloom, I would see a major role for him also. With the character of Legolas, there is no age problem. And since he is a Prince of Mirkwood, he is right in the thick of the action regarding the Necromancer and Dol Guldur. For Legolas to not be involved in such a major event right in his own backyard, seems to defy common sense. However, Bloom is the one actor who really broke out after the LOTR pics in terms of box office appeal and increase in his per picture price. It certainly did not hurt him to be a major player in the other major box office bonanza - the PIRATES trilogy. So Bloom is in the drivers seat and it would not surprise me to see his agent ask for Tom Cruise like wages. The script will probably not even be seriously attempted until the question of which actors they have on board is resolved.

[Kuruharan]

The script will probably not even be seriously attempted until the question of which actors they have on board is resolved.

I agree. They said that they'd cast people after the script is done, but I think it is the other way around.

I'm probably the only one who finds the inclusion of John Howe and Alan Lee to be depressing.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

It's dangerous to make too much from their
comments, but there seems to be some
hope that GdT is interested in being more
"faithful" to the books then PJ (especially in
TTT and ROTK). I like it that he appears to
want to keep elements/events that could have
been changed or eliminated, such as his view
of talking animals and including all of the dwarves.
Marrying his interpretations with PJ's visual success in recreating
M-E [U]could[U] lead to a quite successful interpretation.

Quite, quite... very odd to hear that from me (and I am not the last to be surprised, for sure), but I like that fella, and I may even start to like it thanks to that fella. Well, of course, still with maaany reservations (like my belief that nothing should be filmed in the first place, for more see Tolkien's On Fairy-Stories).

And someone said something about Ron Perlman? That may be another reason. If there will be actors I actually know and like (like him), then it may be a good reason to really watch the movie in the first place And I daresay he would have made a good Beorn, but whatever...

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And someone said something about Ron Perlman? That may be another reason. If there will be actors I actually know and like (like him), then it may be a good reason to really watch the movie in the first place And I daresay he would have made a good Beorn, but whatever...

I can actually see Ron Pearlman doing a great Bombur. Imagine a fat, sullen and slightly retarded Bombur played by Pearlman. That would be a classic role for him!

[Longstaff Sixpenny]

I am intrigued by this:

WetaHost: Will the Mirkwood Elves be different from the Rivendell Elves of the LOTR trilogy?

Guillermo del Toro: That is definetly my intention but I cannot reveal anymore at the moment.

And this:

WetaHost: I would love to know how you are going to deal with goblins in the movie. Will they look like the smaller orcs in the LOTR movies or are you going to make a completely new design?Also will everything look like it did in the LOTR movies or will you be redesigning it to fit your vision?

Guillermo del Toro: This is an area in which I hope we can expand and enhance a LOT from the established designs in the Trilogy. I plan to come up with a very strong, new treatment for the Goblins.

[ArathornJax]

why you find the addition of Alan Lee and John Howe to be depressing? This might be more appropriate as a PM and feel free to return that way if you like (or ignore this as you like ) but I would be interested to hear your opinion. I have several artists outside of Lee and Howe that I find interesting and would love to hear your thoughts. Anyone else depressed or looking for new movement on this front?

[Sauron the White]

The thought of John Howe, Alan Lee, Howard Shore and many of the production crew already being on baord makes me very happy.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

why you find the addition of Alan Lee and John Howe to be depressing?

Actually, the artistic integrity of Lee and Howe were one of the things I actually appreciated about the films, as well as the stunning cinematography (minus, of course, the Great Red Eye Radio Station Beacon atop Barad-dur). The look of the movies (save, perhaps, the flouncy Elvish dress code) was spot on. My disagreements are almost entirely with the scripting.

[mark12_30]

I do have to keep reminding myself that the first movie is book-Hobbit, and the second movie is stuff like Dol Guldor and post-Battle-of-five-armies and maybe some unfinished tales...

Once reminded, I find myself very intrigued by the Second Film. It is borderline fanfiction; the sort of things fanfic writers are challenged by: "but while they were off doing that, what was so-and-so up to?" Of course, we want it to be terribly canonical. But what would YOU write?

Depending on what actors came back... what if they get some crazy unexpected combination? (say, for instance) Faramir, Boromir, Gimli, and Arwen, but NOT Viggo and NOT Orlando and NOT Elrond and not Galadriel...? I guess the options are as varied as the characters were... but we could end up with something very unexpected.

Kind of fun to imagine.

In terms of being an adult: During LOTR Aragorn is 87, right? ... In Movie terms, Frodo went east not-too-long after BIlbo's 111th birthday party, and so 111 - 50 = ummm 61, and so by THAT timeline Aragorn would have been 87 - 61 = ummmm 26. So although that's not Tolkien's original timeline for young Aragorn, it fits the PJ timeline, sort of. Using that PJ timeline, when Bilbo came eastward through Rivendell, Aragorn would have been a strapping starry-eyed 26-year-old fellow. On Bilbo's return trip he would have been 28. He met Arwen when he was twenty, so using PJ's timeline, there's room for an Aragorn-Arwen scene at Rivendell.

Remains to be seen what Del Toro will do with the timeline-- Tolkien's or PJ's?

One could also wonder whether we will be seeing Pippin and Merry's adolesence. Yeeee. And I wonder whether Tom Bombadil will make it into the second movie, if his actor comes back.

Right. Just kidding.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Once reminded, I find myself very intrigued by the Second Film. It is borderline fanfiction; the sort of things fanfic writers are challenged by: "but while they were off doing that, what was so-and-so up to?" Of course, we want it to be terribly canonical. But what would YOU write?

Helen,

I had to smile when I read this. You've hit the nail on the head. For better or worse, and many would say indubitably for worse, move #2 does seem to come perilously close to fanfiction. I have also seen more than one RPG where the "script" had to be rewritten at the last moment when an expected writer failed to materialize. My guess is that GdT would simply go for recasting rather than dumping a character, if he/she was needed.

I am looking forward to seeing these Mirkwood Elves!

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

why you find the addition of Alan Lee and John Howe to be depressing? This might be more appropriate as a PM and feel free to return that way if you like (or ignore this as you like ) but I would be interested to hear your opinion. I have several artists outside of Lee and Howe that I find interesting and would love to hear your thoughts. Anyone else depressed or looking for new movement on this front?

Alan Lee's conception of Middle earth, in my view, could only be described as "fog-bound".

John Howe's vision of Middle earth just doesn't line up well with what Tolkien wrote. His paints his subjects in plate armor and tends to have too much of a High Medieval tone for my taste. It is probably more of a niggle for me than it should be, but I can't seem to help it. Also, his balrogs look like dobermans with bat wings.

I like Lee's clothing and armor styles better as they seem to be somewhat more in line with what Tolkien wrote...when you can see the clothing through the haze.

Did I mention that Howe's balrogs look like dobermans with *wings*?

My favorite Tolkien artist is Ted Nasmith. His landscapes are phenomenal, and while I admit that figures aren't his strongest suit, he clothes and arms them more in a manner which I believe to be consistent with what Tolkien wrote.

And his balrogs have no wings.

Did I mention that Howe's balrogs look like dobermans with *wings*?

[R.]

My personal favorite Tolkien artist even though he only did a few is Michael Kaluta although i don't know about his Legolas.



Ron

[Longstaff Sixpenny]

Anyone have a count of what creatures and landscapes in PJ's LoTR came from Howe or Lee? The Stone Trolls were essentially lifted from an illustration done by Lee, as was Orthanc. Howe's design for the Winged Beasts/Nazgul Steeds was also adopted pretty much wholesale. I wonder if the "camouflaging" Smaug will be closer to Lee's design? Here's a link to the two side-by-side:

http://fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/dragons.html

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

My favorite Tolkien artist is Ted Nasmith. His landscapes are phenomenal...

Indeed. Nasmith's "Last Sight of Hobbiton" has brought me to tears more than once.

[ArathornJax]

I have to agree with Ted Nasmith. I know that he was invited but couldn't contribute due to some personal issues when the LOTR Trilogy was made.

This website shows though Nasmith's influence on the Film Trilogy. It makes a solid case I think to his influence.

http://tednasmith.narod.ru/

BTW, I agree that Nasmith's people are lacking but his scenery is beautiful.

Though SHE may be to some more cartoonish, I really like Anke Eissman's drawings found at http://www.anke.edoras-art.de/anke_illustration.html.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

AJ, Anke is a great artist - and a she! Some of her artwork reminds me of Alan Lee's watercolors, and she does the best Middle-earth women I've seen yet. (Her Lúthien is beautiful and has a strong character face.) She's fairly young, so she may yet add to an already good reputation and become better known on your side of the Atlantic. I doubt that the Hobbit film producers will add another artist to their roster though.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm probably the only one who finds the inclusion of John Howe and Alan Lee to be depressing.

Probably. Though Nasmith easily has the best landscapes.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

(minus, of course, the Great Red Eye Radio Station Beacon atop Barad-dur).

Now that's interesting. I'm pretty sure they were going for the Nazi searchlight look.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

AJ, Anke is a great artist[...] She's fairly young, so she may yet add to an already good reputation and become better known on your side of the Atlantic. I doubt that the Hobbit film producers will add another artist to their roster though.

But I see that she has done quite a few fanfic paintings. I see a contact link on her site... could a REB series be in the offing?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Longstaff Sixpenny

Anyone have a count of what creatures and landscapes in PJ's LoTR came from Howe or Lee? The Stone Trolls were essentially lifted from an illustration done by Lee, as was Orthanc. Howe's design for the Winged Beasts/Nazgul Steeds was also adopted pretty much wholesale. I wonder if the "camouflaging" Smaug will be closer to Lee's design? Here's a link to the two side-by-side:

http://fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/dragons.html

I think the dragon will look more like the one in the movie "Sword of Xanten", but that's just me.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

But I see that she has done quite a few fanfic paintings. I see a contact link on her site... could a REB series be in the offing?

*evil maniacal laughter*

Do it Esty, do it, do it!!!!

This website shows though Nasmith's influence on the Film Trilogy. It makes a solid case I think to his influence.

http://tednasmith.narod.ru/

ArathornJax

That is a very interesting website...however, I'm not sure I find it totally convincing on all points. A number of the paintings and shots are quite dissimilar in content. I cite "Beren and Luthien are Flown to Safety" and the shot of Gandalf being carried over the mountains, the Arwen and Aragorn comparisons, the Eowyn and Witch-king comparisons and the shadow of Sauron shots. A number of the other ones are more similar but that mostly seems attributable to their being about the same thing.

There are a couple of pictures, though, that I do find a bit striking. "Leaving the Shire" and the shot of Gandalf's cart is one example. "Gandalf Escapes Upon Gwaihir" and the comparable shot from the movie is another. "The Anger of the Mountain" does seem to serve as inspiration for the shot from the movie. I also agree that the Watcher shots are probably related. I think the Dead Marshes shots are the ones where Nasmith's influence could most strongly be felt...they really are almost identical. The comparison of the Ents wrecking Isengard is nearly that similar too.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Now that's interesting. I'm pretty sure they were going for the Nazi searchlight look.

Well, what they got was the portrayal of the title character as a Highly Irritable Lighthouse.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, what they got was the portrayal of the title character as a Highly Irritable Lighthouse.

It was laughable. Sometimes a cigar is not just a cigar.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

But I see that she has done quite a few fanfic paintings. I see a contact link on her site... could a REB series be in the offing?

Nope, not REB, but I do happen to know that she is working on an illustration for an upcoming book about music in ME...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, what they got was the portrayal of the title character as a Highly Irritable Lighthouse.

I'm wondering if its the Middle-earth version of the Grail-shaped beacon, and if so would the Mouth of Sauron be naughty Zoot or Dingo?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I'm wondering if its the Middle-earth version of the Grail-shaped beacon, and if so would the Mouth of Sauron be naughty Zoot or Dingo?

Maybe we should carry this on in the Monty Python's "There and back again" thread.

[davem]

For MGM, among those is a continuation of Bond and Pink Panther sequels, an announced remake of "Fame" and a not-yet-announced remake of "RoboCop," possibly in 3-D. "'RoboCop" would be great in 3-D, as would something we're hoping to announce soon," said Parent. This also includes "The Hobbit," which will be filmed in two parts released in 2011 and 2012, and maybe more after. "There's 80 years between the end of 'The Hobbit' and the beginning of 'The Lord of the Rings,'" said Sloan. "Think of the franchise."

http://www.indiewire.com/biz/2008/05...8_biz_d_4.html

Indeed - think of the franchise......

[Sauron the White]

I am all in favor of HOBBIT as a film. And I like the idea of a film based on the White Councils attack on Dol Guldur. Beyond that...... not so sure.

Here are possible ideas that could really turn it into a thriving franchise for the next forty years.

film six: ARAGORN AND ARWEN; TEEN ANGST

film seven: THOSE DARN DWARVES

film eight: DECORATING MORIA: TRADITIONAL OR CONTEMPORARY?

film nine: BROTHERS OF MINAS TIRITH

film ten: SLUMLORD - GREY HAVENS INTO CONDOS

[mark12_30]

OK, going back to the "tons o Hobbit News" theme: GdT, and his attitudes, versus PJ and his. I have a question which is really about Del Toro, whom I know very little about. (I didn't knkow much about PJ before LOTR movies, either.) Here's the background:

PJ was a maestro at depicting bad guys, badder guys, and very baddest guys. We got orcs, we got ringwraiths, we got trolls and we got balrogs. (Okay one was enough.) We got watchers in the water and we got Shelob and we got a gollumy gollum which drew plenty of deserved admiration. Lots and lots of really bad bad guys. Magnifique.

But-- where are the Really Really Good Guys?

Look at the books, and there are characters which are So Good-- I mean, Soooo Verrrrry Goooood-- that you almost don't know what to do with 'em. Elrond is so good he shimmers. He's so virtuous he's untouchable. He's angelic.

Book Aragorn: annoys people because he is such a goodie two shoes.

Galadriel: when you first read the books, did you think she had any bad in her at all?

But all three of these guys got (IMO) too humanized by PJ&co. The Ubergoodness got sucked out of them. THey became The Guy Next Door and the PowerHungryQueen next door. Maybe PJ sold more tickets that way, I dunno, but it distressed me deeply. Everybody suddenly had common faults. Normal everyday run-o-the-mill faults. Movie-Elrond walked around with such a scowl that half the fans didn't like him much. Galadriel creeped out people so much that when Gollum said, "we could take them to Her-- She could do it", some folks thought that Gollum was planning on involving Galadriel. Really.

My sister watched the movies and really didn't like or enjoy Middle-Earth all that much. Then she read the books, and when she saw the Goodness in Lorien and Rivendell, she saw why I loved it so much, and said, Oh, you enjoyed the movies because you knew that there really was real goodness there-- BECAUSE YOU HAD READ THE BOOKS.

Gandalf the Grey was pretty not-bad, but Gandalf the White didn't do it for me.

The only PJ movie character that was Truly UberGood All The Time-- besides Sam-- was Arwen. And I suppose you could say Legolas.

SO there's the background: PJ was a baddie Maestro but didn't have a touch for Saints and Angels.

I'd like to think that TH and Part Two provide an opportunity to see some of that change. But do they really? Thranduil is no Eldrond. Bard... just a man. Certainly the thirteen dwarves have their roaring faults (as they are supposed to) and certainly BIlbo has faults of his own. Who, in The Hobbit, is Ubervirtuous? Where are the characters that really, really shine? Are there any? (I would say Elrond, but he seems doomed to scowl. Would that it were otherwise.)

Elves are supposed to be Good People. Though they Tra-La-La-Lally on midsummers day, and Roll-roll-roll thirteen dwarves in barrels down the sluice gate, and turnkey and butler are drunkards, still, they should shine.

Will they?

All this makes me hope for the return of Legolas and Arwen, even Mid-Hobbit.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Is it fair of me to hope, beg, and plead that del Toro just conveniently forgets that The Hobbit was essentially a musical?

I'm simply dreading a scene where thirteen dwarves break into a song and dance routine while doing Bilbo's dishes.

[Sauron the White]

Having seen the musical version of LOTR in Toronto, I dearly hope Del Toro does not even know what the word musical means.

[AbercrombieOfRohan]

http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/article...e-rings-bridge

Rope of Silicon is reporting that TH movie will be just the Hobbit and no bridge between the Hobbit and the LOTR.

My thoughts: ... we need two movies to get through the Hobbit and only one to get through all of RotK (and half of TT)? Puh-leeze... Well, you guys do your thing over there in NZ... just don't mess it up!

Haha, no pressure...