Can I just admit that I'm addicted to LotR fanfiction?

[Lush]

I just need to stand up and say it: my name is Lush, and I am an addict.

I'm not into the slash, but otherwise, some of the original characters people come up with are just awesome. And yes, before anyone asks, I do gravitate toward the less family-friendly ones (which is why I'm not providing any links to my favourites on this family-friendly site).

It's like being in a thrift store - you have to dig around for the really good stuff, which makes the experience all the more rewarding.

This latest flare-up (I've been going through phases, for the past 7 years, since discovering Tolkien) could have something to do with the fact that I speak little Arabic, have no license, and find going out to the decent bookstores to be a huge hassle. I am not sure. It could also have something to do with playing Elder Scrolls, and being confronted with the enormity of Tolkien's influence over and over again.

Most importantly though, I've been wondering how much of my addiction has been influenced by my own relationship with Tolkien's work. Not in the sense that I think it can or should be improved (I'm just saying that in case anyone wants to kill me with sticks), but in the sense of how it can really crack open your mind and create these entirely new vistas within it.

Anyone else ever ponder this? Or am I the only fanfic-addicted weirdo on the Barrow-Downs at present?

P.S. Ever notice how some of the fanfics explore the concept of death? The intrepid Mary Sue/Marty Stu (or a better character) just, I dunno, falls through a crack in space-time and ends up in Middle Earth. There's something so afterlife-ish about this.

[Nerwen]

That's fine, Lush. In another incarnation, I'm addicted to MST-ing LOTR fan-fiction.

[Lush]

Yesss! And fanfiction is a great way to dork-out.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Some fan fiction can be a great supplement to Tolkien's stories. Those of you who have recommendations - or are looking for some - please check out the *Fan Fiction Information* thread.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Some fan fiction can be a great supplement to Tolkien's stories. Those of you who have recommendations - or are looking for some - please check out the *Fan Fiction Information* thread.

Ummm...Estelyn, I can't even access the fan-fic forum any longer. And what I remember from when that forum was arbitrarily condensed months ago, all the newer stories (including mine) were abruptly terminated. I often enjoy reading other folk's fan-fic, but when I can't participate (the only reason seemingly being that I am not one of the 'original and accepted' posters) it leaves a rather bad taste in one's mouth.

By the way, here's the error message:

Error including required files: Can't locate /home2/barrowwight/cgi-bin/vars_display.cgi in @INC (@INC contains: /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.8/i686-linux /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/i686-linux /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.7 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.6 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl .) at ultimatebb.cgi line 54.
No such file or directory
Make sure these files exist, permissions are set properly, and paths are set correctly.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Morthoron, I get the exact same error message, so it's not a personal problem of yours. I would guess that it's a remnant of the problems we had with forum software in the past. I will check with The Barrow-Wight to see what he can do about it - thanks for alerting the rest of us to the problem!

[Lush]

Oh dear.

Btw, anyone know of any good ones that center on Aragorn? The Legolas ones are a dime a dozen, and some are very, very good, but you kinda hate to see a King getting snubbed like that. Especially when you consider the wealth of material to work with there (and no, I don't just mean good looks ).

[Lush]

Here's a random observation,

A lot of the fanfics written by young girls mention abuse. Now obviously a checkered past is a staple of the Mary Sue, but you have to wonder how many of the authors are dealing with their own problems this way.

I certainly did when I was a kid. I look over my old stories now, and go, "hmmm, well this badly drawn character with the blue eyes had this nasty thing happen to her and look here, it says 'the scars on her soul.' Bad line, but hmmm."

Fanfiction as low-grade therapy, baby.

[Nerwen]

I think it's more often angst at being forced to do the dishes.

Most things you see a lot in fan-fiction are, purely and simply, the result of writers copying each other. People like me who mock it for a hobby– we call ourselves "sporkers", and it's practically a subculture– know that there are a few basic elements that recur with absurd frequency in story after story, e.g.

There is a tenth member of the Fellowship.

Boromir is an evil misogynist.

The main character is Elrond's other daughter.

Or Sauron's daughter.

Legolas and Aragorn are boyhood friends and have adventures together.

Thranduil is a drunk and beats Legolas.

Either Legolas or Aragorn is blind/deaf/mute/crippled/scarred.

A male character has a baby. (AKA "Mpreg".)

Elladan and Elrohir are pranksters (a la the Weasley twins).

And, of course,

Abused girl is hit by a car, wakes up in Middle-earth and finds out that she is the Chosen One.


We actually classify fan-fics by their dominant cliches: "Look, another Blind!Aragorn".

What I'm saying is, there's no way fan-fic authors could be coming up with all this independently.

Another thing: Because it's such a cliche, stories about abuse will attract a lot of negative reviews– Fan-fic authors get very upset at this and defend their stories hotly, but I've never known one to use the grounds that it all happened to her. I know many former "Suethors" who tell me they put all the trauma stuff in because, well, everyone else did and they kind of thought you had to. In fact– I'll come clean– I've produced some pretty melodramatic stories myself!

In fact, judging from my own travesties, I think the other thing at work here is that young writers know that you're meant to give the main character some kind of adversity to overcome, but they just haven't learned any sense of moderation yet.

Edit: I'm not saying every fan-fiction is terrible. There are some very good ones around. It's just that I deliberately seek out bad ones...

[Lush]

Like you, I like seeking out the bad ones as well. I think they can be hugely entertaining, and you can pretty much play bingo with all the clichés. I also see sometimes how young authors in particular try the various, ah, staples on the genre on for size and explore what they can do with them. Those I always find interesting.

I also wouldn't underestimate the amount of real abuse survivors who are writing this stuff. Obviously abuse is great for when you're creating faux tension - "Legolas! Oh noes! We can't be together - my creepy uncle once turned me into a newt as a practical joke, and I've just never been the same! I love you! Don't touch me!"

On the other hand, some of the very disturbing and resonating descriptions of abuse are obviously either the result of a great imagination, actual trauma, or some combination thereof.

*cough* When Lush was a wee little girl, she wrote melodramatic prose about her own abuse, which helped her cope. If only fan fiction was around back then. *coughedy cough*

[mark12_30]

An interesting teacher (John Eldridge at RansomedHeart) says that there are six basic desires woven into the fabric of humans. Let's see if I can recall all six.

The desire for a great battle to fight; the desire for a great adventure; the desire for a Beauty to rescue. Versus, the desire to be fought for; the desire for shared adventure (in the process of being fought for); and the desire to be The Beauty.

Another significant desire is the desire to heal. Beauty Heals (insert temporarily disabled hero). I remember this one myself; favorites stories were about rescuing angst-ridden heroes (Mad Lancelot, for instance).

Having said all that, I think most stories are autobiographical to some degree. Especially if they are any good; but even when they are not. Your pardon all, but using the phrase "writing as therapy" simply gains one the label Captain Obvious. What else is it? What else could it possibly be? Any story that we tell, we tell because we are part of a story ourselves, and we remind ourselves of the themes of our story by weaving those themes into the stories we tell.

So a young authoress wants to be Elrond's Other Daughter, the Beauty to be rescued... it comes from those root desires. And the ubiquitous Hack 'N' Whack... same thing.

What do we desire, anyway? Should we be surprised if those desires surface in the stories we write? I am forty-seven years old... I think. More or less. Anyway, the stories I wrote when I was fourteen (long since burned) meet many of Nerwen's checklists (except mpreg). I rescued many heroes, including Lancelot (mad), Boromir (rescuscitated from his elvish boat after Faramir's vision) and so on and so forth. Was it based on being a depressed kid, moping about wishing that somebody loyal might fight for me and rescue me out of my moping? Oh, I suppose, you know, maybe.

I shall agree with Lush quite loudly about this: just because the author of an abused Marysue doesn't announce that she suffered similar things, I would not therefore assume that she had, therefore, not suffered similar things.

Elrond's other daughter. Hmmm. How come I never wrote that one?

[Nerwen]

Look, I didn't mean to offend you, guys, and I'm very sorry to hear this happened to you– but I don't think for a moment that I'm underestimating the numbers. Buried in the heap there may well be a few who are using it as therapy... but most of these girls are, my view, very, very clearly copying from each other. Also they use it– quite shamelessly– to give their stories "cred".

If you'll forgive me for saying this– people who have had such experiences may not be better at judging than anyone else, simply because they're so ready to see it everywhere, to believe they have a special insight, and to be willing to ignore the signs that scream, "Fake!" to everyone else. Which is quite natural, but it doesn't make them right.

I have known such a person in real life who maintains to this day that I "must" have been abused myself, and am "in denial"!

Guess what? She's wrong.

EDIT: There's really not a lot of point continuing this particular argument, because it heads straight into "negative proof" territory. (Also, I guess it has the potential to be deeply hurtful to some people.) I am just giving you my opinion here.

[Lush]

I'm not offended, Nerwen. I think this is an interesting conversation.

If you'll forgive me for saying this– people who have had such experiences may not be better at judging than anyone else, simply because they're so ready to see it everywhere, to believe they have a special insight, and to be willing to ignore the signs that scream, "Fake!" to everyone else.

I don't speak for anyone else, just myself and the people I have worked with, but I rarely meet survivors who are "ready to see it everywhere." I think your conception about what it means to be a survivor of childhood abuse is off. We're not all madwomen stuck in the attic with a DSL connection, usually it's quite the opposite. If your friend is trying to convince you of past abuse that never happened, it's most likely that she has yet to work out her own issues, and is probably trying to connect to you through a shared history that just doesn't exist. This is unfortunate, and you should tell her so (though if she does have actual trauma in her life, it's best to tread lightly - while still being firm, of course). I would caution you against making sweeping statements about "people who have had such experiences" - and what they're good, and not good, at. I am very comfortable discussing my past abuse in public - I think the embarrassed silence that surrounds it is what enables abusers - but I wouldn't be comfortable discussing it with an individual who purports to know exactly how it has affected me and what it makes me able, or unable, to do.

I think copying others is actually a great way to allow your work to serve a purpose, first and foremost, to yourself. Using familiar tropes is comforting. It doesn't make for good writing, but it does allow you some measure of control over a narrative without necessarily overstepping certain internal boundaries.

My thoughts on the matter are not meant to take away from your fun of skewering bad fanfic. It's my type of fun as well. But I think it is true that many people use fanfic to work out their own issues and desires, and the interesting ones do it interestingly (interesting doesn't always mean good, btw).

Your pardon all, but using the phrase "writing as therapy" simply gains one the label Captain Obvious.

I actually never thought of my own writing, or anyone else's, as therapy - for a long time. Writing was always Art, and anyone who wasn't striving to make Art through writing was basically worthless in my eyes. Then I loosened up a bit, and saw that it was many things. When I write ghost stories for my kid brother, is it Art? Probably not. But that doesn't make me want to stop, oddly enough.

[Nerwen]

Lush, I wasn't trying to make sweeping statements about you or anyone. I was speaking only of the subset of people who claim their judgement is more valid than that of the rest of us, due to what they've been through. I was just putting forward reasons why this may not be the case. At no time did I mean this to apply to all victims of abuse.

I have to say, though, people who have a history of trauma are, in my limited experience at least, very apt to do what I described. Perhaps they are not representative– an exception rather than the rule. All I can say is that some people react in this way, and leave it at that.

Anyway, obviously I did offend you, and I'm sorry for that.

I guess I did not make it clear what I was trying to say. I'm not really all that good at expressing myself verbally. (I've been lynched in WW for this!)

Once again, after reading reams of angsty fan-fic, I find it impossible to believe that most "fanbrats" are other than spoiled teenagers working off their natural adolescent hostility to their parents. Like I did.

EDIT: clarifying, adding a comment.

[Lush]

I find it impossible to believe that most "fanbrats" are other than spoiled teenagers working off their natural adolescent hostility to their parents. Like I did.

And that's what can make them really, really fun.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lush

And that's what can make them really, really fun.

That... and the typical Mary Sue's weird name, weirder powers (were-dragons, anyone?), special eye-colour... I mean, they're still hooked on violet! And I love how they totally take the story over (mystical connection to the Ring, etc.)

Some people do get awfully upset by things like fairies and drow in Middle-earth, though...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The very best way to write a Mary Sue story is to proclaim it a parody so that readers know you're above that kind of shoddy writing. Then you can do absolutely anything you want with both character and story and be considered witty and intelligent, because you're allegedly not taking it seriously nor are the readers. Who's then to accuse the author her/himself of self-insertion or therapeutic writing?! Best of both worlds!

[Nerwen]

You haven't done this yourself, by any chance, Esty?

EDIT: fixed bolding.

EDIT2: update. I just discovered a great Mary Sue– named Nerwen! (Author must have got the name off a list somewhere, as she's clearly never read any of the books, let alone UT.)

She rides a unicorn.

[Thenamir]

... as mentioned by the Lovely Estelyn, can be found right here on the Downs: Revenge of The Entish Bow and its sequel, The Reunification of the Entish Bow -- and I don't say that becase both Esty and I participated in the writing thereof ...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

As someone who writes both original fiction and fanfic, and published a fiction fanzine for about 14 years, I've read or seen just about every permutation of fanfic in existence -- and ah, the tales I could tell, the horrors I have seen, and the occasional delights. But that's a long, long story.

For myself, I don't care much for angst or H/C or Mary Sue or whatever fics (just give me a plain old good story), but there is one Mary Sue LotR parody that makes me laugh so hard, it hurts. It's called "Nine Men and a Little Lady" by one Kielle, and I believe it can be found here: http://www.subreality.com/marysue/nmaall.htm Personally, I find Galadriel's entry the most hilarious, but I have a rather odd sense of humor.

[Lush]

You know, if someone was busy procrastinating, they could probably make a bad fan fic drinking game... hmmm...