The Good and The Bad - a Quick Look at the Movies

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

There are many many current movies where the evil, bad ambassador is granted parley, and even though you know the guy is as rotten as his teeth usually is, are granted parley. Look at Troy, Gladiator, King Arthur, Braveheart, The Patriot, Kingdom of Heaven all these movies have "Rules of War" and treating with the enemies' ambassador/leader. I saw Prince Caspian about a week ago (absolutely loved it by the way!) and the evil Telmarine King dude is treated with dignity and respect when he is bartering a deal with the good King Edmund. So, I don't by the "modern audience won't understand" excuse for this one. Beheading the MoS is just inexcusable.

Haven't you seen 300?!?! "THIS IS SPARTA!"

But seriously, I think it was wrong as well.

[MatthewM]

Before I continue the Bad list, I must add some things to the Good. In bold are the recently added, and so far the full list...

THE GOOD (Changes, also those scenes which stuck nicely with the book)

* The Prologue. Nicely done, although the geography itself poses a problem for a later scene.
* Gandalf's entrance. McKellen as Gandalf was a great choice. Although some don't care for Frodo's entrance, I think that it worked nicely with Gandalf's, and gives the viewers a decent introduction to the two main characters.
* Gandalf's meeting with Bilbo.
* A Long Expected Party
* The Hobbits. They look like Hobbits should and would look.
* In the EE, we see the flight of the Wood Elves. I love this scene. A great nod to the meeting the Hobbits had with them.
* The Wizard Fight. This is one of the changes PJ made that I actually like, and I think it fits very nicely within Tolkien's world.
* The Nazgul. In my opinion, PJ succeeds in making you feel fear when the Black Riders approach.
* The Prancing Pony. Although I'm not sure how I feel about Frodo's magnetic finger trick, the P.P. scene is definitely kosher with Tolkien. The whole medieval feel of the inn completely does it for me here. Great lighting and everything. A nice nod at the book when you see Bill Ferny and his goons glaring at the Hobbits.
* Aragorn. Good entrance, and although nowadays Viggo would not have been my first choice, I think he pulled the role off nicely.
* The Ranger sword. This was recently debated in a topic here, but I don't see any harm in giving Strider a sword that is actually functional compared with a sword that is broken.
* The Three Trolls. Gives us book fans comfort and joy!
* Scene at the Ford. I have mixed feeling about the actual Flight to the Ford, including Arwen's appearance, but I don't think that it was necessarily bad. It wasn't good, though. I liked the water horses in the actual Ford.
* Many Meetings. You have to like the golden calm of Rivendell...beautiful.
* Arwen and Elrond. Looking good.
* (Strictly appearance wise) Legolas and Gimli fit the part. Bean as Boromir did not, and we will get to that later. I get touchy on this subject! We are talking strictly appearance right now.
* Aragorn and Arwen in the blue twilight. I think this is a great scene, and it plants those important seeds that need to be sown in order to show the people the relationship of A & A. Not to mention, great lighting in this scene. Love the blue.
* "I will take it! Though I do not know the way." I love the way Frodo delivers these lines. It makes for a powerful moment indeed.
* The Ring Goes South. I will get to the bad changes made here, but there are some good elements here which stuck to Tolkien, such as the scenery. I like the choice for Hollin.
* Caradhras. Mixed feelings, it should have been done better and elaborated more. Still, it wasn't that bad compared to some other things. Having Legolas walk on the snow was a major plus and adds to the good of this scene.
* "Knock your head against these doors Peregrin Took...!" I like how they added this (I think it's in the EE) because it shows Gandalf's short temper, especially when it comes to Pip.
* Boromir and Aragorn attempting to slay the Watcher...shows their bravery, rather than just Sam's (as in the book).
* Moria. Was done very well. Of course, as with every part of the story, could have been elaborated more, but looking at what we were given - pretty good. I was glad to see Pippin's folly, although I don't understand why he couldn't have just actually thrown a stone instead of a whole skeleton.
* Pippin putting the final blow into the cave troll. A nice nod to Pippin's grand deed of slaying a troll during the Battle at the Black Gate.
* Gandalf's fall. Nice.
* The scenery of Lothlorien.
* Galadriel. I think Cate was a wise choice. I don't know if it's just me, but after seeing Cate as Galadriel she (Cate) is wayyyy hotter.
* The Mirror of Galadriel. Done well, along with G's temptation.
* The gift scene was nice, although I think it complete rubbish that they didn't show Boromir get his gift of a golden belt.
* The Great River and the Argonaths. Could have elaborated much more, though.
* The Breaking of the Fellowship. The attempt to take the Ring, although I would have done things differently, was nicely done.
* Boromir's death scene. Again, I would have done it a bit differently, but it was done well. It showed Boromir's valiant and heroic nature as he attempted to save M & P.
* The Departure of Boromir. I'm glad they showed his funeral boat going down the Falls of Rauros.
* Aragorn slaying Lurtz. You have to admit, it feels great when he beheads him.
* Frodo and Sam. Done well, especially Frodo thinking of Gandalf's words.
* "Let's hunt some orc." Delivered nicely by Viggo and set up for an optimistic future.

THE BAD (continued)

* Let's get it over with...Frodo should have been older.
* The time was out of whack. That was not 17 years!
* Pippin is not in the company that sets off. I do not like this, and "Three is Company" is completely left out of Pippin's story!
* "Conspiracy Unmasked" is also left out. What gives?! The conspiracy was what brought the Hobbits together and from the onset showed Sam, Merry, and Pippin's devotion to Frodo. M & P's entrance from Farmer Maggot's crop is horrible and too random, and is just not true.
* No Farmer Maggot.
* Frodo's magnetic finger. Ok, so I know that a dancing hobbit atop a table falling and slipping on the Ring would not show so well for live action, but I don't know about this scene where Frodo falls after trying to hush Pippin and the Ring in mid-air magically finds his finger. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Ring could do that.
* "Ash on my tomatoes" - although funny, there were no tomatoes in M-e!
* Arwen taking Frodo to the Ford. I've expressed some ok feelings about this scene, but overall - I don't know if it was too good.
* That horrible scene in which Boromir walks into some quiet place in Rivendell where the Shards are just laying on a statue and Aragorn is reading a book. Right off the bat, PJ trys to make Boromir look bad. Book Boromir would have never picked up the hilt of the Shards, then after cutting himself proceed to look at Aragorn with a cowardly face and then drop the hilt, walk away, hear it fall, and then exit the room without picking it up. What rubbish. This is one of my many quarrels with Movie Boromir. He displayed no respect, and Book Boromir would simply not have done that.
* The Council of Elrond was alright, but it wasn't what it should have been. Boromir should have explained why he was there in the first place. He explains the dream a little bit in the EE, but not in the theatrical. Now, without that explanation, which is the key to why Boromir was in Rivendell in the first place, not to mention the key to why Boromir is the character that he is, how is anybody supposed to know what this guy is doing at Rivendell to hear this almighty Council? Besides my problems with movie Boromir, there were other things about this scene. When the whole council stands up after Gimli's bombastic "no one trust an elf!" line, which I do not like, Gandalf stands up and just starts picking fights with people. He blantantly starts picking a fight with Boromir, I believe. Just does not seem like Gandalf. However, I do like, and I forgot to put this on the "good" list, when Gandalf stands and speaks the Black Tongue to all at the Council in the EE. Nicely done.
* Appearance wise: Boromir does not fit. He was dark-haired, first of all, not light brown haired. He most likely didn't have a beard, seeing as how he was only 40 (not even half of his Numenorean life-span, Faramir lived to be around 118, and both were of "High Numenorean lineage"). He wore a stone around his neck. He did not openly wear chain-mail. And he carried a long sword, not a broad sword. His horn was tipped with silver, not gold. PJ's Boromir doesn't fit the description. People like Bean's Boromir, but I am not a huge fan. Character wise, I don't think PJ did that great. I think book Boromir was much nobler. But I'm not getting into that again. I'm sure a similiar argument could be had with PJ's Aragorn.
* "You have my sword" "and you have my bow", ...etc. This just doesn't make sense and would not work in real life. M-e was a realm of valour and courage. I know this saved time rather than Elrond making the decision after the council, but come on. So PJ is saying that the whole other lot of people present at the Council are all cowards? Seems so. If one person started joining in with "you have my sword", and then this random elf and dwarf gave their pledge, I can assure you that if that was real life most if not all of the others present would also volunteer to go, especially after seeing the others volunteer. "You have my sword Frodo!" ... "No, my sword!" ... "Hey, me too, my axe!!!" Ugh.
* Gandalf being reluctant to go into the Mines. Although I personally think it works better, why did it need to be changed? Aragorn's the one who warned against the Mines, Gandalf wanted to go under from the onset. One of the least bothersome changes, in my opinion.
* Caradhras. While hiking up the mountain, Frodo falls for some reason, tumbles, and in the process the Ring comes off his neck. Then PJ does something that makes no sense to me. He has Boromir pick up the Ring, and although I love the nod to the book (when PJ takes a line from Boromir's speech before he trys to take the Ring) in Bean's "it is a strange fate...", having Boromir pick up the Ring just does not make sense. Firstly, wouldn't technically then he be considered one of the Ring-bearers, regardless of how long he held it? He still held it. Secondly, again PJ is making Boromir look like a bad guy, having the good guy Aragorn almost strike Boromir with his sword. I just don't like this scene...and I know what people in defense would say. "They had to build up Boromir's temptation of the Ring" but come on now, I just don't buy that. Boromir wasn't seriously tempted until Lothlorien.
* Saruman being responsible for having the snow come crashing down onto the Fellowship. Takes away the raw power and mysticism that is Caradhras.
* Balin's Tomb. Not in full - for I like a lot of this battle, especially the moments building up to it, and when the Hobbits scream and go into battle. However, Gimli stands on Balin's grave - that's just not right. And, in the EE, the troll whipping Boromir around unconscious is pretty silly.
* Lothlorien. The Company should have been blindfolded. Definitely could have stuck to the story. Gollum could have made another appearance. Orcs could have been shown getting slayed by ranged elven archers.
* The Mirror. Sam could have been there, but I won't argue much with this one. It was important to get Frodo there, but not really Sam.
* Galadriel's Gifts (EE). Why the heck doesn't PJ film Boromir receiving his gift? Why in the world would he not include that? Especially because the scene was an extended so he didn't have to worry about time, plus the fact it would have taken about 10 seconds. Boromir should have received his golden belt on film. There's no logical reason for not showing it.
* I would have liked to hear some debate about whether or not the Company would go through Fangorn. I would have liked to see more debate before The Great River.
* No Orcs shooting arrows at the Company. No Legolas shooting down the Winged Beast. Like I mentioned, it's nice because I love these scenes so much so I'm glad in a way they were not filmed, but it would have been cool.
* Tol Brandir was not really explained. I don't recall them explaining how it was that Frodo saw what he saw, being on the Seat of Seeing.
* Frodo should have announced he was going off. The guy just wanders away without telling anyone? Would the ring bearer really do that? Come on.
* Boromir's speech to Frodo before he trys and takes the Ring is almost wholly absent. This is very upsetting as this is one of the best parts in the book. The scene is rather rushed.
* Boromir was pierced by numerous arrows, not just three.




That may be it. However, if I think of more they will surely be added.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

There are many many current movies where the evil, bad ambassador is granted parley, and even though you know the guy is as rotten as his teeth usually is, are granted parley. Look at Troy, Gladiator, King Arthur, Braveheart, The Patriot, Kingdom of Heaven all these movies have "Rules of War" and treating with the enemies' ambassador/leader. I saw Prince Caspian about a week ago (absolutely loved it by the way!) and the evil Telmarine King dude is treated with dignity and respect when he is bartering a deal with the good King Edmund. So, I don't by the "modern audience won't understand" excuse for this one. Beheading the MoS is just inexcusable.

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Haven't you seen 300?!?! "THIS IS SPARTA!"

I was going to say, that. But even though 300 has next to no plotline compared to LOTR, even there it was treated as shocking. I mean, look at the messenger's last words: "NO man threatens a messenger. This is blasphemy! This is madness!" Anyway, there it had no story and was done for visual effect. In LOTR EE he kills him it so casually (but then If we're talking about ROTK I have quite a few complaints there).


And also MatthewM, I don't know if thiss has been said before, but I like the way Gandalf speaks the Black Speech in Rivendell.

[Macalaure]

What should be added to The Bad, I think, are the Stairs of Khazad-dûm, a completely unnecessary scene featuring a defiance of the laws of physics and, on top of that, the first attempted Dwarf tossing. It does create some tension, but one has to wonder whether a Balrog(!) alone wouldn't have sufficed for this purpose.

Talking of the Balrog, I would add him to The Good. He did not look the way he was supposed to, but the way he was presented was rather effective.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And also MatthewM, I don't know if thiss has been said before, but I like the way Gandalf speaks the Black Speech in Rivendell.

Yes, that's on the list under the Good category. I agree!

Mac- I agree, the Balrog should make the Good list.

[Mithalwen]

I can say whole heartedly that I loved just about all the costumes, sets and props. These I felt were designed by people who loved the book deeply. I went to see the exhibition when it came to the Science Museum in London and it was just fabulous - particularly Galadriel's dress and Boromir's funeral boat. I would have liked Lothlorien to be a bit more golden and less trippy but ..I would have liked more Lorien and less cave troll ....

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I can say whole heartedly that I loved just about all the costumes, sets and props. These I felt were designed by people who loved the book deeply. I went to see the exhibition when it came to the Science Museum in London and it was just fabulous - particularly Galadriel's dress and Boromir's funeral boat.

Oh yes, the costumes. Amazing.

[ArathornJax]

since we are discussing a film adaptation I think we have to say that Howard Shore's score has to goo in the Good.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

since we are discussing a film adaptation I think we have to say that Howard Shore's score has to goo in the Good.

We have said this, I just forgot to add it to the long list, for this is one of the greatest things about the films- here is the updated list!

THE GOOD (Changes, also those scenes which stuck nicely with the book)

* The Music by Howard Shore.
* The Prologue. Nicely done, although the geography itself poses a problem for a later scene.
* Gandalf's entrance. McKellen as Gandalf was a great choice. Although some don't care for Frodo's entrance, I think that it worked nicely with Gandalf's, and gives the viewers a decent introduction to the two main characters.
* Gandalf's meeting with Bilbo.
* A Long Expected Party
* The Hobbits. They look like Hobbits should and would look.
* In the EE, we see the flight of the Wood Elves. I love this scene. A great nod to the meeting the Hobbits had with them.
* The Wizard Fight. This is one of the changes PJ made that I actually like, and I think it fits very nicely within Tolkien's world.
* The Nazgul. In my opinion, PJ succeeds in making you feel fear when the Black Riders approach.
* The Prancing Pony. Although I'm not sure how I feel about Frodo's magnetic finger trick, the P.P. scene is definitely kosher with Tolkien. The whole medieval feel of the inn completely does it for me here. Great lighting and everything. A nice nod at the book when you see Bill Ferny and his goons glaring at the Hobbits.
* Aragorn. Good entrance, and although nowadays Viggo would not have been my first choice, I think he pulled the role off nicely.
* The Ranger sword. This was recently debated in a topic here, but I don't see any harm in giving Strider a sword that is actually functional compared with a sword that is broken.
* The Three Trolls. Gives us book fans comfort and joy!
* Scene at the Ford. I have mixed feeling about the actual Flight to the Ford, including Arwen's appearance, but I don't think that it was necessarily bad. It wasn't good, though. I liked the water horses in the actual Ford.
* Many Meetings. You have to like the golden calm of Rivendell...beautiful.
* Arwen and Elrond. Looking good.
* (Strictly appearance wise) Legolas and Gimli fit the part. Bean as Boromir did not, and we will get to that later. I get touchy on this subject! We are talking strictly appearance right now.
* Aragorn and Arwen in the blue twilight. I think this is a great scene, and it plants those important seeds that need to be sown in order to show the people the relationship of A & A. Not to mention, great lighting in this scene. Love the blue.
* "I will take it! Though I do not know the way." I love the way Frodo delivers these lines. It makes for a powerful moment indeed.
* The Ring Goes South. I will get to the bad changes made here, but there are some good elements here which stuck to Tolkien, such as the scenery. I like the choice for Hollin.
* Caradhras. Mixed feelings, it should have been done better and elaborated more. Still, it wasn't that bad compared to some other things. Having Legolas walk on the snow was a major plus and adds to the good of this scene.
* "Knock your head against these doors Peregrin Took...!" I like how they added this (I think it's in the EE) because it shows Gandalf's short temper, especially when it comes to Pip.
* Boromir and Aragorn attempting to slay the Watcher...shows their bravery, rather than just Sam's (as in the book).
* Moria. Was done very well. Of course, as with every part of the story, could have been elaborated more, but looking at what we were given - pretty good. I was glad to see Pippin's folly, although I don't understand why he couldn't have just actually thrown a stone instead of a whole skeleton.
* Pippin putting the final blow into the cave troll. A nice nod to Pippin's grand deed of slaying a troll during the Battle at the Black Gate.
* Gandalf's fall. Nice.
* The scenery of Lothlorien.
* Galadriel. I think Cate was a wise choice. I don't know if it's just me, but after seeing Cate as Galadriel she (Cate) is wayyyy hotter.
* The Mirror of Galadriel. Done well, along with G's temptation.
* The gift scene was nice, although I think it complete rubbish that they didn't show Boromir get his gift of a golden belt.
* The Great River and the Argonaths. Could have elaborated much more, though.
* The Breaking of the Fellowship. The attempt to take the Ring, although I would have done things differently, was nicely done.
* Boromir's death scene. Again, I would have done it a bit differently, but it was done well. It showed Boromir's valiant and heroic nature as he attempted to save M & P.
* The Departure of Boromir. I'm glad they showed his funeral boat going down the Falls of Rauros.
* Aragorn slaying Lurtz. You have to admit, it feels great when he beheads him.
* Frodo and Sam. Done well, especially Frodo thinking of Gandalf's words.
* "Let's hunt some orc." Delivered nicely by Viggo and set up for an optimistic future.

[Sauron the White]

Regarding the physical appearance of Boromir ...... It really matters little if an actors hair color does not quite match... brown or black ... or if a beard is there or not ... or a silver tipped horn or gold ..... unless of course that is a crucial detail that the film hinges on and none of those things did in FOTR.

I notice that last night the American Film Institute named FOTR the #2 Best Fantasy film of all time edged out by WIZARD OF OZ. They made a huge change in that film that completely angered book Oz fans when they changed the color of the silver slippers to ruby slippers simply to show off the visual wonders of the new Technicolor process against the yellow brick road. Now there was something crucial and important but it worked beautifully on screen.

The main thing with Boromir is that the character came of much more likable on screen that he did in the book and for film viewers that is very much a positive asset.

As far as the Moria stairs go ........ I loved them. Great set design and it gave an opportunity for some interesting heroics. That entire Moria sequence is still one of my favorite stretches in all three films and the stairs play a big visual part in that.

[Macalaure]

I have to agree with StW here, if we only judge which changes were good and/or worked and which didn't, then the change of Boromir's appearance indeed affected the film neither positively or negatively (at least he wore pants ). I believe the only reason for this change was to have even little children - and teens and adults with the attention span of little children - be able to distinguish Boromir and Aragorn.

I hate to say it, but making Boromir more likeable and identifiable with was probably a change to the better. Personally, I would have very much preferred Boromir as he should be.

The stairs scene on the other hand, yes, it was exciting to watch, but it made no sense - and not only once you start thinking about it afterwards, but right away when you watch it for the first time. And it took screen time away from things that would have made sense, Gandalf's early confrontation with the balrog along with the destruction of the Chamber of Mazarbul, for example.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Regarding the physical appearance of Boromir ...... It really matters little if an actors hair color does not quite match... brown or black ... or if a beard is there or not ... or a silver tipped horn or gold ..... unless of course that is a crucial detail that the film hinges on and none of those things did in FOTR.

I disagree. I think that if Tolkien gave one of the most detailed descriptions of a character we get in FotR, PJ should have adhered to them. There's no reason why he shouldn't have. The whole distinguishing thing is rubbish, in my opinion, and I've heard that was his reasoning. When I see PJ's Boromir, I don't see Book Boromir. They are totally different in my opinion, appearance wise and personality wise, but I don't want to get into that. My point is, with a character like Pippin, for example, I can honestly say I am pleased with PJ's Pip and I think PJ did a great job with translating Pippin from book to movie. He's a believable translation. PJ's Boromir on the other hand...eh.

I really don't want to get into a whirlwind of arguments over this again...so to save all of that, let's just agree to disagree!

[Sauron the White]

Matthew - perhaps one reason for your strong opinion is that Boromir is your favorite character from the book. We tend to feel more strongly about what is closer to our hearts. You praise the Pippin in the movie but that is something you do not feel asstrongly about as you did Boromir. Changes in the depiction of the character from page to screen would most likely not impact you as hard as Boromir.

When I see PJ's Boromir, I don't see Book Boromir. They are totally different in my opinion, appearance wise and personality wise, but I don't want to get into that.

People do not like it when I say this, but its true just the same - the reason you do not see Book Boromir in the movies is because its the movie and not the book. I do not mean that in a wiseguy sort of way - its just the simple reality that a book and a movie are two different things with two different masters to serve.

Lets face it - the Dorothy Gale in the book WIZARD OF OZ was clearly not the same character in the movie. The character of LAWRENCE OF ARABIA was not the one his own brother knew from real life. They were not meant to be. They were characters which worked on the screen within the world they inhabited on the silver screen. The characters in the book- regardless if real or imaginary - do not have to have all the same qualities, characteristics, and components of what works in a book.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

People do not like it when I say this, but its true just the same - the reason you do not see Book Boromir in the movies is because its the movie and not the book. I do not mean that in a wiseguy sort of way - its just the simple reality that a book and a movie are two different things with two different masters to serve.

Lets face it - the Dorothy Gale in the book WIZARD OF OZ was clearly not the same character in the movie. The character of LAWRENCE OF ARABIA was not the one his own brother knew from real life. They were not meant to be. They were characters which worked on the screen within the world they inhabited on the silver screen. The characters in the book- regardless if real or imaginary - do not have to have all the same qualities, characteristics, and components of what works in a book.

I think many Downers recognise that a comparison of apples and oranges has its problems, StW, and many of us here grant that a different medium will necessitate changes. However, surely there is more going on than merely this.

Why would Tolkien not make Boromir as glamorous as Aragorn? Why did PJ sex Boromir up? One hypothesis is that the two men had different visions of hero, adventure, moral failing.

Tolkien had a particular aesthetic about beauty. I think there's a letter where he even discusses the nature of beauty and evil and that in certain aesthetics, the two are never mixed. (I could be wrong about this, been awhile.) His beautiful characters (in LotR) are those who are not perfect but who are morally correct. Book Boromir is a character who has a clear moral failing--his pride, his ambition (for Gondor as well as for himself), his hubris. This is not to deny that he wins redemption. He clearly does. Nor is this to say he is a villain. Tolkien is too subtle for that.

Yet the subtly of Tolkien's vision is such that he does not want his readers to find those who clearly do have a moral failing too attractive. This is in sharp contrast to modern tastes, where beauty can be very twisted and where moral culpability tends to glamorised and treated with great compassion.

PJ glamorised Movie Boromir because that is the way of blockbusters and Hollywood. But I doubt Tolkien would have wanted Boromir to be glamorised. He would want readers to feel pity for Boromir, but not to be infatuated with him. he would have found Boro fangirls midguided if not ludicrous.

This is a question of the ethos of Middle-earth. PJ accomplished many things in translating LotR to the silver screen, but as he mixed Middle-earth with Star Wars he lost certain aspects of Tolkien's ethos. The question is, did he need to do that? And it is more than just the difference between apples and oranges.

So, would this hypothesis account for the differences between Book Boro and Movie Boro, more than simply the book/movie dichotomy?

[Sauron the White]

from Bethberry

PJ glamorised Movie Boromir because that is the way of blockbusters and Hollywood. But I doubt Tolkien would have wanted Boromir to be glamorised.

You bring up many good points about JRRT and his writings. I cannot take issue with them. I do think that the statement of yours that I printed above, is an oversimplification of things and the usual demonization of the Hollywood film industry.

First, the LOTR films were not a creation of Hollywood and were different in many ways from the traditional fantasy blockbuster. They did not follow the usual thud and blunder script and were more subtle in many ways despite the battle scenes and action material aplenty.

Second, I do not think I would use the word "glamorised" to describe what Jackson did to Boromir as much as I would use the word "humanize" him. Over the past six years I have read many posts on several sites where people say the following in different ways:

"Boromir was not a very sympathetic or likable character in the books but I gained a btter appreciation of him from the movies".

Those are my words and I am trying to summarize what many have said. Jackson succeeded in making the character more likable and someone who you really cared about once he made the sacrifice for the hobbits and died. It meant more then because the audience actually cared about him and liked him.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Second, I do not think I would use the word "glamorised" to describe what Jackson did to Boromir as much as I would use the word "humanize" him. Over the past six years I have read many posts on several sites where people say the following in different ways:

"Boromir was not a very sympathetic or likable character in the books but I gained a btter appreciation of him from the movies".

Those are my words and I am trying to summarize what many have said. Jackson succeeded in making the character more likable and someone who you really cared about once he made the sacrifice for the hobbits and died. It meant more then because the audience actually cared about him and liked him.

This is what I meant by glamorised. Perhaps you are right that humanised is a preferable word. Still, my point is that an aesthetic which requires viewers/readers to "care about and like" a character is not an aesthetic which Tolkien adheres to. Even moving Boromir's death to the end of FotR, rather than making it the start of TTT, is giving the character too much dramatic attention. The end of the Fellowship is what is significant, not Boromir's death, hence that is what concludes Book-FotR. And it is Boromir's pride and ambition that forces Frodo not only to flee, but to put on the Ring. It is the terrible power of Sauron and the Ring that should be dramatised, not the denouement of Boromir. In Tolkien's ethos.

However, this is getting away from the topic of the thread I suppose.

[Sauron the White]

from Bethberry

Still, my point is that an aesthetic which requires viewers/readers to "care about and like" a character is not an aesthetic which Tolkien adheres to. Even moving Boromir's death to the end of FotR, rather than making it the start of TTT, is giving the character too much dramatic attention.

You are right about this and I cannot disagree one iota............. as long as we are talking about the book and what was right for JRRT in writing that book. Tolkien had every right to construct charactes to his own sensibilities, his own style and his own liking. And he produced the book he wanted to. That is great.

The movie is a different medium entirely and as such requires different treatment.
What works in a book may not work in a film. Boromir is one example. JRRT himself said the book was probably unfimlable - and maybe some of his character construction was one reason he felt this. Who knows for sure? Perhaps he recognized himself that a character such as book Boromir would never work as film Boromir.

The death of a major character is a big deal in films. As such, it is a hook to get the audience to buy in to the film. It is necessary to use the full vocalulary available to screenwriters and a director to make this happen.

In the end, the only true test is "did it work on screen". Or another way to put it is "did the audience buy into it?"

I think the success of the film showed that it did. Of course, each individual viewer has to make their own decision for themselves and the overall success of the film then means nothing to them. And that is as it should be.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Matthew - perhaps one reason for your strong opinion is that Boromir is your favorite character from the book. We tend to feel more strongly about what is closer to our hearts. You praise the Pippin in the movie but that is something you do not feel asstrongly about as you did Boromir. Changes in the depiction of the character from page to screen would most likely not impact you as hard as Boromir.

This is true, but I would like to add that I love Pippin and he is one of my favorite characters. So, he's close to my heart too. I don't really feel like they messed with his character and appearance as much as they did Boromir's.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Why would Tolkien not make Boromir as glamorous as Aragorn? Why did PJ sex Boromir up? One hypothesis is that the two men had different visions of hero, adventure, moral failing.

You're talking about appearance, right? Because in the book, Boromir is quite handsome and Aragorn is, although not ugly, not the best looking of the bunch. Boromir is described when we first meet him as having a "fair and noble face" whereas from the Hobbit's prospective Aragorn looked foul and felt fair when they first met him at Bree. I remember on a few occassions Tolkien cited Boromir as being good looking. I actually think, coming from a guy, Bean was a step back from that...(I know, all the Bean fan-girls/boys are going to get me for that one)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

You're talking about appearance, right? Because in the book, Boromir is quite handsome and Aragorn is, although not ugly, not the best looking of the bunch. Boromir is described when we first meet him as having a "fair and noble face" whereas from the Hobbit's prospective Aragorn looked foul and felt fair when they first met him at Bree. I remember on a few occassions Tolkien cited Boromir as being good looking. I actually think, coming from a guy, Bean was a step back from that...(I know, all the Bean fan-girls/boys are going to get me for that one)

I think the slight altering of Boromir's character (his humanization, if you will) was the only success Boyens and Jackson had while meddling with Tolkien's original characterizations. Aragorn is weak and vacillating -- a friendless and morose loner who does not know what he wants. Faramir? My god, what a travesty for such a noble character (even David Wenham was upset when he read what they did to his character). Denethor? A crass nutjob with no redeeming values (not even table etiquette). Elrond? Sorry, I've never read anywhere that elves whine. I cringe everytime I hear him say 't-h-i-i-i-n'.

So, I would definitely put Boromir's characterization as a positive.

[Nerwen]

Just chiming in with MatthewM– what is all this about PJ "glamourising" Boromir's appearance? Really, I don't think Sean Bean's all that good-looking.

Also, I found the book version to be an interesting and quite sympathetic character... I guess it all comes down to people reacting differently.

That said, I'd certainly list Movie-Boromir as one of the positives. I don't find the fact that he looks different to be an issue at all.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, I found the book version to be an interesting and quite sympathetic character... I guess it all comes down to people reacting differently.

Thank you! I also think Book Boromir to be quite sympathetic and caring. It's all about how people read him, I suppose, but I definitely see a helping and caring Boromir in the book, and I know I'm quite out numbered here, but I don't like what Jackson did to Boromir's character and I don't think he "humanized" him because (in my opinion) book Boromir is already humanized. In fact, I would say Boromir is the most human out of all Tolkien's characters.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Tolkien had a particular aesthetic about beauty. I think there's a letter where he even discusses the nature of beauty and evil and that in certain aesthetics, the two are never mixed. (I could be wrong about this, been awhile.) His beautiful characters (in LotR) are those who are not perfect but who are morally correct. Book Boromir is a character who has a clear moral failing--his pride, his ambition (for Gondor as well as for himself), his hubris. This is not to deny that he wins redemption. He clearly does. Nor is this to say he is a villain. Tolkien is too subtle for that.

Yet the subtly of Tolkien's vision is such that he does not want his readers to find those who clearly do have a moral failing too attractive. This is in sharp contrast to modern tastes, where beauty can be very twisted and where moral culpability tends to glamorised and treated with great compassion.

What about the whole "fair and foul" thing?
Does that mean that Aragorn was not morally correct?

edit: woops. MatthewM already said that.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

You're talking about appearance, right? Because in the book, Boromir is quite handsome and Aragorn is, although not ugly, not the best looking of the bunch. Boromir is described when we first meet him as having a "fair and noble face" whereas from the Hobbit's prospective Aragorn looked foul and felt fair when they first met him at Bree. I remember on a few occassions Tolkien cited Boromir as being good looking. I actually think, coming from a guy, Bean was a step back from that...(I know, all the Bean fan-girls/boys are going to get me for that one)

MatthewM and Eönwë, by "beautiful" I meant "excellent of its kind", as in "a beautiful putt on the seventh hole", to quote Dictionary.com. This definition would include Aragorn even in his disguise as a Ranger, his appearance so different from Boromir's luxurious presence.

Yet we all read in our own way and there's that old adage from Keats about the eye of the beholder. For instance, while you are right that Book Boromir is described as "fair and noble of face", those are not the only words which describe him and I would consider the entire passagae.

Originally Posted by Tolkien, Council of Elrond

And seated a little apart was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, proud and stern of glance.

Those last two words are as important for my appreciation of Book Boromir as the first two you refer to, MatthewM. That word "proud" is often used in the Council of Elrond in reference to Boromir. He even uses it to refer to Numenor, so obviously he thinks pride is a good thing. Yet pride has traditionally been one of the worst of human failings. The list of the seven deadly sins is variable; pride is I think the only sin mentioned on most of the discussions. (I can just see the lightbulb going off in some minds, ready to create an internet quizz, "What's your sin? ) This mix is what makes, to me, Book Boromir an interesting character--not a character I sympathise with but clearly one who is complex. As we learn later, Boromir never had to prove himself as Aragon and Faramir have had to, so he has the arrogance and pride of one who simply and always assumes he is entitled. It's a common problem among first born heirs.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

In the end, the only true test is "did it work on screen". Or another way to put it is "did the audience buy into it?"

I think the success of the film showed that it did.

yes, but that does not prove that any other manner of presentation would not have worked or that a film which shows more sensitivity towards Tolkien's ethos is not possible.

But then, PJ is allowed his own interpretation, as all directors are. His true folly, to me, was in his claims that the production was faithful to Tolkien, the implication that his films were a true and authentic depiction of Tolkien's Middle-earth. I don't think that David Lean claimed he was faithful to T.E. Lawrence (although Lawrence was given credit along with Bolt as a sceen writer, or at least is on that movie site whose acronym I can never remember).

If only he had admitted to textual poaching.

So, I hope I've clarified what I meant earlier. RL demands mean I won't have time to reply further.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Yet we all read in our own way and there's that old adage from Keats about the eye of the beholder. For instance, while you are right that Book Boromir is described as "fair and noble of face", those are not the only words which describe him and I would consider the entire passagae.

Of course, but I only put the first part of the description in because I thought you were referring to looks, so being proud wouldn't apply to that. The way you wrote it made it sound like you were referring to appearance, which wouldn't be a correct assumption as Boromir was good looking.

[MatthewM]

Updated List for The Fellowship of the Ring - Some big ones came into my head that I forgot before. New additions are in bold and spaced apart from the rest!

THE GOOD (Changes, also those scenes which stuck nicely with the book)

* The Prologue. Nicely done, although the geography itself poses a problem for a later scene.
* Gandalf's entrance. McKellen as Gandalf was a great choice. Although some don't care for Frodo's entrance, I think that it worked nicely with Gandalf's, and gives the viewers a decent introduction to the two main characters.
* Gandalf's meeting with Bilbo.
* A Long Expected Party
* The Hobbits. They look like Hobbits should and would look.

* The scene at the Green Dragon in the EE with Merry and Pippin dancing on the tables

* In the EE, we see the flight of the Wood Elves. I love this scene. A great nod to the meeting the Hobbits had with them.
* The Wizard Fight. This is one of the changes PJ made that I actually like, and I think it fits very nicely within Tolkien's world.
* The Nazgul. In my opinion, PJ succeeds in making you feel fear when the Black Riders approach.
* The Prancing Pony. Although I'm not sure how I feel about Frodo's magnetic finger trick, the P.P. scene is definitely kosher with Tolkien. The whole medieval feel of the inn completely does it for me here. Great lighting and everything. A nice nod at the book when you see Bill Ferny and his goons glaring at the Hobbits.
* Aragorn. Good entrance, and although nowadays Viggo would not have been my first choice, I think he pulled the role off nicely.
* The Ranger sword. This was recently debated in a topic here, but I don't see any harm in giving Strider a sword that is actually functional compared with a sword that is broken.
* The Three Trolls. Gives us book fans comfort and joy!
* Scene at the Ford. I have mixed feeling about the actual Flight to the Ford, including Arwen's appearance, but I don't think that it was necessarily bad. It wasn't good, though. I liked the water horses in the actual Ford.
* Many Meetings. You have to like the golden calm of Rivendell...beautiful.
* Arwen and Elrond. Looking good.
* (Strictly appearance wise) Legolas and Gimli fit the part. Bean as Boromir did not, and we will get to that later. I get touchy on this subject! We are talking strictly appearance right now.
* Aragorn and Arwen in the blue twilight. I think this is a great scene, and it plants those important seeds that need to be sown in order to show the people the relationship of A & A. Not to mention, great lighting in this scene. Love the blue.
* "I will take it! Though I do not know the way." I love the way Frodo delivers these lines. It makes for a powerful moment indeed.
* The Ring Goes South. I will get to the bad changes made here, but there are some good elements here which stuck to Tolkien, such as the scenery. I like the choice for Hollin.
* Caradhras. Mixed feelings, it should have been done better and elaborated more. Still, it wasn't that bad compared to some other things. Having Legolas walk on the snow was a major plus and adds to the good of this scene.
* "Knock your head against these doors Peregrin Took...!" I like how they added this (I think it's in the EE) because it shows Gandalf's short temper, especially when it comes to Pip.
* Boromir and Aragorn attempting to slay the Watcher...shows their bravery, rather than just Sam's (as in the book).
* Moria. Was done very well. Of course, as with every part of the story, could have been elaborated more, but looking at what we were given - pretty good. I was glad to see Pippin's folly, although I don't understand why he couldn't have just actually thrown a stone instead of a whole skeleton.
* Pippin putting the final blow into the cave troll. A nice nod to Pippin's grand deed of slaying a troll during the Battle at the Black Gate.
* Gandalf's fall. Nice.
* The scenery of Lothlorien.
* Galadriel. I think Cate was a wise choice. I don't know if it's just me, but after seeing Cate as Galadriel she (Cate) is wayyyy hotter.
* The Mirror of Galadriel. Done well, along with G's temptation.
* The gift scene was nice, although I think it complete rubbish that they didn't show Boromir get his gift of a golden belt.
* The Great River and the Argonaths. Could have elaborated much more, though.
* The Breaking of the Fellowship. The attempt to take the Ring, although I would have done things differently, was nicely done.
* Boromir's death scene. Again, I would have done it a bit differently, but it was done well. It showed Boromir's valiant and heroic nature as he attempted to save M & P.
* The Departure of Boromir. I'm glad they showed his funeral boat going down the Falls of Rauros.
* Aragorn slaying Lurtz. You have to admit, it feels great when he beheads him.
* Frodo and Sam. Done well, especially Frodo thinking of Gandalf's words.
* "Let's hunt some orc." Delivered nicely by Viggo and set up for an optimistic future.

THE BAD

* Let's get it over with...Frodo should have been older.
* The time was out of whack. That was not 17 years!
* Pippin is not in the company that sets off. I do not like this, and "Three is Company" is completely left out of Pippin's story!
* "Conspiracy Unmasked" is also left out. What gives?! The conspiracy was what brought the Hobbits together and from the onset showed Sam, Merry, and Pippin's devotion to Frodo. M & P's entrance from Farmer Maggot's crop is horrible and too random, and is just not true.
* No Farmer Maggot.
* Frodo's magnetic finger. Ok, so I know that a dancing hobbit atop a table falling and slipping on the Ring would not show so well for live action, but I don't know about this scene where Frodo falls after trying to hush Pippin and the Ring in mid-air magically finds his finger. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Ring could do that.
* "Ash on my tomatoes" - although funny, there were no tomatoes in M-e!
* Arwen taking Frodo to the Ford. I've expressed some ok feelings about this scene, but overall - I don't know if it was too good.
* That horrible scene in which Boromir walks into some quiet place in Rivendell where the Shards are just laying on a statue and Aragorn is reading a book. Right off the bat, PJ trys to make Boromir look bad. Book Boromir would have never picked up the hilt of the Shards, then after cutting himself proceed to look at Aragorn with a cowardly face and then drop the hilt, walk away, hear it fall, and then exit the room without picking it up. What rubbish. This is one of my many quarrels with Movie Boromir. He displayed no respect, and Book Boromir would simply not have done that.

* Elrond's little flashback of telling Isildur to destroy the Ring. This is just ugly. First of all, did PJ realize that it would take days to reach Mt. Doom from the Dead Marshes? I think he moved the battle in the first scene, but nonetheless, this scene is just garbage. "Isildur, come with me, hurry!" Wow.

* The Council of Elrond was alright, but it wasn't what it should have been. Boromir should have explained why he was there in the first place. He explains the dream a little bit in the EE, but not in the theatrical. Now, without that explanation, which is the key to why Boromir was in Rivendell in the first place, not to mention the key to why Boromir is the character that he is, how is anybody supposed to know what this guy is doing at Rivendell to hear this almighty Council? Besides my problems with movie Boromir, there were other things about this scene. When the whole council stands up after Gimli's bombastic "no one trust an elf!" line, which I do not like, Gandalf stands up and just starts picking fights with people. He blantantly starts picking a fight with Boromir, I believe. Just does not seem like Gandalf. However, I do like, and I forgot to put this on the "good" list, when Gandalf stands and speaks the Black Tongue to all at the Council in the EE. Nicely done.
* Appearance wise: Boromir does not fit. He was dark-haired, first of all, not light brown haired. He most likely didn't have a beard, seeing as how he was only 40 (not even half of his Numenorean life-span, Faramir lived to be around 118, and both were of "High Numenorean lineage"). He wore a stone around his neck. He did not openly wear chain-mail. And he carried a long sword, not a broad sword. His horn was tipped with silver, not gold. PJ's Boromir doesn't fit the description. People like Bean's Boromir, but I am not a huge fan. Character wise, I don't think PJ did that great. I think book Boromir was much nobler. But I'm not getting into that again. I'm sure a similiar argument could be had with PJ's Aragorn.
* "You have my sword" "and you have my bow", ...etc. This just doesn't make sense and would not work in real life. M-e was a realm of valour and courage. I know this saved time rather than Elrond making the decision after the council, but come on. So PJ is saying that the whole other lot of people present at the Council are all cowards? Seems so. If one person started joining in with "you have my sword", and then this random elf and dwarf gave their pledge, I can assure you that if that was real life most if not all of the others present would also volunteer to go, especially after seeing the others volunteer. "You have my sword Frodo!" ... "No, my sword!" ... "Hey, me too, my axe!!!" Ugh.
* Gandalf being reluctant to go into the Mines. Although I personally think it works better, why did it need to be changed? Aragorn's the one who warned against the Mines, Gandalf wanted to go under from the onset. One of the least bothersome changes, in my opinion.
* Caradhras. While hiking up the mountain, Frodo falls for some reason, tumbles, and in the process the Ring comes off his neck. Then PJ does something that makes no sense to me. He has Boromir pick up the Ring, and although I love the nod to the book (when PJ takes a line from Boromir's speech before he trys to take the Ring) in Bean's "it is a strange fate...", having Boromir pick up the Ring just does not make sense. Firstly, wouldn't technically then he be considered one of the Ring-bearers, regardless of how long he held it? He still held it. Secondly, again PJ is making Boromir look like a bad guy, having the good guy Aragorn almost strike Boromir with his sword. I just don't like this scene...and I know what people in defense would say. "They had to build up Boromir's temptation of the Ring" but come on now, I just don't buy that. Boromir wasn't seriously tempted until Lothlorien.
* Saruman being responsible for having the snow come crashing down onto the Fellowship. Takes away the raw power and mysticism that is Caradhras.
* Balin's Tomb. Not in full - for I like a lot of this battle, especially the moments building up to it, and when the Hobbits scream and go into battle. However, Gimli stands on Balin's grave - that's just not right. And, in the EE, the troll whipping Boromir around unconscious is pretty silly.
* Lothlorien. The Company should have been blindfolded. Definitely could have stuck to the story. Gollum could have made another appearance. Orcs could have been shown getting slayed by ranged elven archers.
* The Mirror. Sam could have been there, but I won't argue much with this one. It was important to get Frodo there, but not really Sam.
* Galadriel's Gifts (EE). Why the heck doesn't PJ film Boromir receiving his gift? Why in the world would he not include that? Especially because the scene was an extended so he didn't have to worry about time, plus the fact it would have taken about 10 seconds. Boromir should have received his golden belt on film. There's no logical reason for not showing it.
* I would have liked to hear some debate about whether or not the Company would go through Fangorn. I would have liked to see more debate before The Great River.
* No Orcs shooting arrows at the Company. No Legolas shooting down the Winged Beast. Like I mentioned, it's nice because I love these scenes so much so I'm glad in a way they were not filmed, but it would have been cool.
* Tol Brandir was not really explained. I don't recall them explaining how it was that Frodo saw what he saw, being on the Seat of Seeing.
* Frodo should have announced he was going off. The guy just wanders away without telling anyone? Would the ring bearer really do that? Come on.
* Boromir's speech to Frodo before he trys and takes the Ring is almost wholly absent. This is very upsetting as this is one of the best parts in the book. The scene is rather rushed.
* Boromir was pierced by numerous arrows, not just three.

[Sauron the White]

Matthew - regarding these two on the bad side of the ledger..........

Boromir's speech to Frodo before he trys and takes the Ring is almost wholly absent. This is very upsetting as this is one of the best parts in the book. The scene is rather rushed.
* Boromir was pierced by numerous arrows, not just three.

One inherent difference in movies and books is there simply is not space for long speeches in films. If you look at almost every speech in the books, they were seriously shortened for the film. That is simply part and parcel of the medium. It does not lend itself to long speeches - especially with todays audiences for good or bad.

Most things in films are shortened when they involve numerical repetition, and that may also apply to the arrows piercing Boromir. I think what Jackson did here was to give Lurtz thicker and heavier arrows so the effect of each one was magnified beyond that of a normal much thinner arrow. And his slow-mo reaction makes each one seem more important. Its simply a difference in style. Remember, in the book we see nothing of this, only the after effects. In the films its much more dramatic and painful to actually witness it.

[Gwathagor]

PJ just wanted another fight scene. It would have taken less time for Aragorn to have come upon Boromir with a TON of arrows already stuck in him, than for us to watch him get shot thrice in slow-mo.

I thought the scene was well-done, but I wanted more arrows. Come on, Boromir! Three? Really? Is that all it took?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think the slight altering of Boromir's character (his humanization, if you will) was the only success Boyens and Jackson had while meddling with Tolkien's original characterizations. Aragorn is weak and vacillating -- a friendless and morose loner who does not know what he wants. Faramir? My god, what a travesty for such a noble character (even David Wenham was upset when he read what they did to his character). Denethor? A crass nutjob with no redeeming values (not even table etiquette). Elrond? Sorry, I've never read anywhere that elves whine. I cringe everytime I hear him say 't-h-i-i-i-n'.

So, I would definitely put Boromir's characterization as a positive.

Ahh, preach it.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Haven't you seen 300?!?!

Don't get me started.

[Boromir88]

Haven't you seen 300?!?!~Matthew

That part of the movie was supposedly accurate (although the movie was based off the comic book, and the comic book wasn't in any way trying to stick to history). Anyway, the Persian Kings believed they were the master of nature. They believed they could control the seas, the land...etc. It was either Xerxes or Darius I, who during a storm, actually whipped the ocean to calm it down, of course following the belief that the Kings controlled nature. So, whenever Persian ambassadors went to other "kingdoms" as a tribute they'd ask for land and water. By giving them land and water you are accepting Persian rule and are in the Persian Empire. By refusing, the Persians would just come with an army and take it themselves.

Well, in true Spartan fashion, when the Persian emissaries came asking for "land and water." The Spartans pretty much said "We got plenty of that down there in this well" and threw the ambassadors into the well...or so how the story goes. And seeing as the Spartans were battle-hungry, blood-thirsty, beasts of combat it comes to no surprise they would treat the Persian ambassadors in such a way. In Gladiator the Roman ambassador rides back without a head, but look how the Germania tribes were portrayed in comparison to the Romans. The Romans get a very good portrayal in Gladiator (and probably the way the Romans would have liked themselves to be seen!), and the German tribes were depicted as ruthless barbarians, hence they decapitate the Roman ambassador.

Enough on 300 and Gladiator, even though they are two movies I love watching.

As far as Boromir's death, we actually get a pretty good account of the battle from Pippin in The Uruk-hai chapter. I believe Pippin describes the orcs coming in three waves, and on the 3rd, Boromir was finally slewn...Pippin says "Boromir made them fight" and a "rain of arrows always aimed at Boromir." In fact, Boromir had successfully driven off the Orcs and they were on their way back to camp when the 3rd wave came and they were just too many. So, we get a really good account from Pippin, sometimes people can exaggerate, but I doubt Pippin was doing it here. Pippin tells Denethor it took "many arrows" to slay Boromir, and this is supported by Faramir telling Frodo and Sam that there were "many wounds on him."

With that being said, I'm perfectly fine with Boromir's death in the movie, as it is quite possibly the greatest death fight/scene ever filmed. Not only does it stir up the emotions, but visually it is absolutely stunning. Not much more to say about it other than, I was shocked with amazement. Too bad Jackson couldn't treat Theoden's death the same way. I didn't have any time to reallyjust like that Gimli's prancing around the battle, cracking jokes and there's some elephant marshmellow dude gimping around.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

...It was either Xerxes or Darius I...

It was Darius who sent the ambassadors (whose murder the Spartans atoned for by sending two of their young nobles to Persia) and Xerxes who whipped the sea as punishment for being unruly and making his crossing difficult.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Of course, but I only put the first part of the description in because I thought you were referring to looks, so being proud wouldn't apply to that. The way you wrote it made it sound like you were referring to appearance, which wouldn't be a correct assumption as Boromir was good looking.

It's a matter of how one reads the passage.

Originally Posted by Tolkien's description of Boromir in Council of Elrond

And seated a little apart was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, proud and stern of glance.

If "proud" were the third item in this list of Boromir's characteristics, there would be, as I read it of course, a comma separating "proud" from "stern of glance." But there is no comma between "proud" and "stern of glance". So we have two coordinate phrases linked by "and", "dark-haired and grey-eyed" and "proud and stern of glance."

So "proud" does not this time describe his emotional or psychological nature, but instead modifies "glance." Thus I read this last characteristic as a qualifier of that "fair and noble face"; it is part of the characteristics of Boromir's face, which is overcast, if you will, by Boromir's "proud and stern" glances. That is, his physical features are marred by this manner of looking around him. His attractiveness is overwritten by this intimidating manner of looking at people.

Pardon the focus on grammar--which can be tedious to many--but it is why I would include "proud and stern of glance" in any consideration of how attractive Book Boromir's face is/was. He ain't just a good-looker; there's something else more ominous in that face.

Now, back to our regularly-scheduled lists.