Mixed Blood

[Groin Redbeard]

It was said that the Princes of Dol Amroth were descended from Imrazor - a Man of Numenorean descent who lived in Belfalas - and Mithrellas - an Elf of Lothlorien who came to Belfalas with Nimrodel.

The father of Elrond was Earendil the Mariner and their mother was Elwing. Earendil was Half-elven: his mother Idril was an Elf and his father Tuor was a Man. Elwing's mother Nimloth was an Elf and her father Dior was the son of Beren – a Man – and Luthien – the daughter of an Elf and a Maia. Thus Elrond and Elros were descended from both Elves and Men and were counted among the Half-elven, or Peredhil.

What do we know of the half elves? It was said that the people of Dol Amroth had elf blood in their veins, but how come they were not blessed with long life? Elrond was given a choice to choose between immortality and a short life, did the descedents of Nimrodel have the same choice?

[MatthewM]

I think the reason somebody like Imrahil was not given the choice to sail West was because by all known relations he was counted as a Man (as were the other Princes)...I also think since Tolkien never states as fact that the Elf connection was present in Dol Amroth (although he surely hints at it being true, especially when Legolas notes Imrahil's elven presence/blood upon seeing him for the first time), giving the Princes of D.A. a choice to sail over sea would be spoiling the myth and speculation of their elf ancestry.

Since it was never proven, the Princes of D.A. automatically associated themselves with Men - thus, even if they had a choice, they did not know of it, and they would eventually die.

[Mithadan]

At the close of the First Age, the assorted half-Elves, Elrond, Elros, Earendil and Elwing, were given the right to choose between being counted among the First Born or Men. Only Elros chose to be mortal, though it seems that Earendil might have so chosen but elected to be counted among Elvenkind due to Elwing's wishes.

Elros' decision bound him and his offspring. I have always believed that the decisions of Elrond, Earendil and Elwing were also binding upon their offspring and that Arwen, by choosing to remain in Middle Earth, did not change her fate. She died out of grief, but entered Mandos and could eventually emerge just like any other Elf that perished. Others believe that the children of Elrond could also choose to be mortal. This would be inconsistent, in comparison to the fate of Elros and his line, so personally I don't follow this interpretation.

Another possible line of reasoning is that Arwen, by giving up her right to return into the West and gifting this right to Frodo, became mortal. However, Tolkien has stated in Letters that Frodo, Sam and (if he indeed did follow Legolas) Gimli all died in the West, so the idea of Arwen gifting her immortality to Frodo is flawed.

As for the royal line in Dol Amroth, they were longer lived than other Men though this may be more because their Numenorean blood was "purer" than due to the (legendary) marriage with Mithrellas. The choice of the Half-Elven was given only to those living at the close of the First Age, not to later unions between Men and Elves.

I use the term "legendary" in connection with Mithrellas, because it is repeatedly mentioned that there were only three unions between Men and Elves, Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril and Aragorn and Arwen. All were considered extraordinary events. So the Mithrellas legend may be just that, a story.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Elros' decision bound him and his offspring. I have always believed that the decisions of Elrond, Earendil and Elwing were also binding upon their offspring and that Arwen, by choosing to remain in Middle Earth, did not change her fate.

Your logic is flawed, per Tolkien. In Letter #153 he states:

Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children -- with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrian dtr, of Galadriel -- have to make their choices.

And then later in the same letter:

When she [Arwen] weds Aragorn...she 'makes the choice of Luthien', so the grief of her parting from Elrond is specially poignant.

Elrond's children unequivocally had to make their own choices, and Arwen was sundered from the Elves forever (like Luthien). The differentiation from Tolkien for Elrond's children (as opposed to Elros' children, or later, Imrazor's children) is that a renewed strain of Elvishness was the determining factor in 'the choice'. This is obviously consistent, as none of Elros or Imrazor's children had any further Elvish mates, and though they retained a longevity greater than regular mortals (and even in some cases 'elvish appearance', as noted by Legolas), they did not have the special circumstances required for having to make a choice.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's also the case that Tolkien didn't count Imrazor-Mithrellas as one of the three marriages between Eldar and Edain (Beren-Luthien, Tuor-Idril, Aragorn-Arwen). Whatever definition of "Eldar" he had in mind at the time he wrote the Appendices, apparently Mithrellas as a Silvan elf didn't count.

I'm frankly a little puzzled by "Imrazor the Numenorean." Why would he be singled out as 'Numenorean' from the other Dunedain of Gondor, especially 1900 years after the Downfall? And why would he have an Adunaic name, unlike all the other Men of Gondor whose names were of Sindarin or mixed Sindarin-Quenya form?

(Then there's T's plain slip, where he places an "Adrahil of Dol Amroth" in the war of 1844- over a century before Amroth ever came to Edhellond).

[LadyBrooke]

The biggest difference I see between the two half-elven lines, is that Earendil, Elwing, Elrond (+kids) and Elros are related to the three kings of the elves (Elwe through Elwing, Finwe and Ingwe through Earendil, plus Arwen and her brothers are related to Olwe through their mother. By extension this means they're related to every royal Sindar, Teleri, Noldor, and Vanyar elf that exists.)

On the other hand the Princes of Dol Amroth are only related to a mere Silvan elf.

I'm not sure what the signifigance is but......

[Gordis]

I think the answer lies in the Silmarillion in Manwe's words:

In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he [Earendil] ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Earendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Earendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged. - Silmarillion, chapter 24 "Of the voyage of Earendil...

Thus it was only to one mixed line that the Choice was granted, not to all half-elves by blood. Mithrellas was not of the right line.

It is NOT about being Mixed, nor about blood quantum. The Choice was a special grace granted to Earendil and Elwing for their great sacrifice: for coming to Aman to plead the case of the two kindreds before the Valar.

[Galin]

Tolkien never really revised the end of Quenta Silmarillion as it stands in HME V (see CJRT's remarks concerning the later cursory corrections however), so here is the unedited version which contains an interesting remark (in any case) about the measure of blood and Mortals...

§9 Then Manwë gave judgment and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged .' JRRT, Quenta Silmarillion, HME V

[Aiwendil]

Thus it was only to one mixed line that the Choice was granted, not to all half-elves by blood. Mithrellas was not of the right line.

This was, however, written in the late 1930s, before the characters Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen existed - so I wouldn't say it's entirely conclusive. Personally, I had always interpreted the "choice" as being inclusive of Elrond's children (though not of Elros's) since the Valar did not have the authority to revoke the Gift of Iluvatar from anyone. However, I have no evidence for this and I'm not sure whether it has some textual basis or not.

I do think, though, that the depiction of the sorrowful parting of Elrond and Arwen in LotR makes more sense if Arwen's choice is understood as a choice for mortality. It always seemed to me that Elrond expected never to see his daughter again.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I do think, though, that the depiction of the sorrowful parting of Elrond and Arwen in LotR makes more sense if Arwen's choice is understood as a choice for mortality. It always seemed to me that Elrond expected never to see his daughter again.

I never doubted it. As a matter of fact it is stated rather plainly in LOTR:

Arwen Evenstar remained also, and she said farewell to her brethren. None saw her last meeting with Elrond her father, for they went up into the hills and there spoke long together, and bitter was their parting that should endure beyond the ends of the world.

I think" to Earendil and Elwing and their sons" includes all their possible offsprings in the following generations. Elros had the choice and Elrond and Elrond's children. Elros had chosen mortality and became a Man - thus his children were not half-Elven anymore.
In the case of Elrond's children it is only strange why the Choice was made so late: when they had already lived for almost 3000 years. Why wasn't it offered much earlier, around the time when they lived for one human life-span?

[Findegil]

It is stated some were, I think in Appendix A, that a special choice was granted Arwen, that she could remain in Middelearth in the youth of the Eldar, as long as Elrond remained, but he left for Valinor she had to make her choice either to leave with him and life on as one of the Eldar or to remain in Middleearth and become a mortal.
In of the Letters Tolkien said that her brethern would natrualy have the same choice but that they could in what ever way delay it. That means that we can not be sure that both of them choose to be mortal also we here that they stayed behind when Erond left.

Respectfully
Findegil